Gonna be different now, (butterfly in hurricane).

[25yearsmlc]

Bruce,

Incredibly, you still see yourself as the victim and on my own thread you posted about that. You pretend otherwise, but AGAIN, there, you pooh poohed your w's valid & important concerns.

It was you I was mostly thinking of, when I said "people who cannot face that they are primarily responsible for their WAS's leaving, are the hardest to help."

But while you'd prefer minimizing her issues and focussing on how to get her back NOW, you still miss the opportunity for true growth.

If you really knew how lonely she was and how often she asked you for help and how many times you turned away from her ( I say all this, based on your own words. I read every post you wrote here),

AND if you had learned empathy, you'd see and say AND DO things differently by now.

IMO, Learning empathy is still your greatest challenge.

Bonsoir,
Following : http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...543#Post2319543

After a long introspection, after 8 months of separation, here is where I think I messed up and what I learnt:

- W's emotionnal needs are as important as food, air, water... (which leads me to the question : how can I provide that to her if we're separated?)

I think It really leads to the question of WHY you did that^^ and how YOU WON"T in the future. Not how to get her back, but how to make sure you are a different man if she turns your way.

WHat are you doing that is new and different in this regard?



Lesson learned : do not discard her complaining aboout this or that, on contrary, listen carefully, show empathy, show attention and try to understand.

And how are you learning to show empathy when you described her issues, on my thread, in this way: YOU WROTE ON MY THREAD

Without wanting to play victim again, there is little fault in me, and WAS still wants to leave. I wish she did reproach something big to me. But she always remained very vague about her reasons, making it super difficult to know what to address and do next.


So, there is "Little fault in [you]"? Really? I'm stunned by you again.

So tell us again what you learned. B/C THAT is what I asked of you. I said, what specifically have you learned and this ^^^^ is what we get? BRUCE this is ALL you being the victim. You seem to think "owning" 5% of the problems is you taking responsibility. It's not.

And she was NOT "vague"about her reasons for wanting out. In her letter to you, she spelled out the conversations you both had been having. She summarized them b/c the specifics had been discussed.

Plus, we know you were not involved in your son's care and that you resented the attention he got. We know this from your words.

THIS^^^ IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM TO HAVE IN A MARRIAGE, OTHER THAN PHYSICAL ABUSE...but oh, now I remember, you "roughed her up" but only once! and that was to get her out of the car so she could walk home. You're still a blind man.

No new mother could be happy in that scenario, let alone in a country not her own and far from family. All the things YOU NOW complain of, about being in her country and not your own, knowing no one, are the same things she faced, but with a newborn baby and a sulking h. She had no co-parent then. How can you pity yourself so much and not feel an ounce of compassion for what you put her through?

It's clear you either didn't listen or you didn't remember her complaints or tuned them out b/c hey, "she's not well (read, "crazy" or "emotional" or "hormonal").... In any case, you didn't hear her. Do you also blame HER for that?
You say "lesson learned" but on the same DAY, you write about her "vague" complaints that were "little faults" of yours. That is you STILL dismissing her perspective WHILE CLAIMING to want to understand and value them.

You're either insincere or very confused.


- Son (and family comitment) is super important. I should choose to spend time with S and/or W over any other activity, be it work, or sports. Lesson learned : I should have given up some activities instead of behaving the same as when we got married and were only 2 people.

This^^ is very clear. I'm sorry you didn't know it until several months after she left you. Other than you writing it to her, I can only assume you've told her this realization of yours?? And that's all you can SAY at this point. The rest is about consistent actions, not more words. Especially not words immediately followed by a disclaimer, or excuse or blame tossed her way.

Also, being involved ranges from playing with S to changing him, knowing his food, etc...

- Help a lot around the house (this goes with the point above), and show concern for W's well-being. Don't assume all is ok just because she doesn't complain.

True. But gauging from her letter to you, and some of what she said to you and some of what you described as HER bad behavior, "sulking" and "being in bad humor", makes me think she did tell you...often, of her unhappiness.

You chose to "leave her alone then" and you claimed that this leaving her when she was sad and needy, reflected on your "patience", (which you actually said.)

But Bruce, it's not patient for a h to ignore a sad wife, espcically a wife with a newborn in a new country without any friends...it's far from patience.


Stop playing video games or watch tv in the evening is a good place to start.

SIGH...Bruce, I want to be kind and patient with YOU. But for a man your age, (34 ??) to say that "Stop playing video games/TV" is a good place to start is the realization I'd expect of a high school boyfriend...not a married man, your age, with a job, wife and baby.

But of course, yes, please stop playing those things when there is anyone around you who might want or need to interact, or be fed, or loved or entertained or...

truly, my son likes those games and my h and kids sometimes play them, and a few times a year the whole family does. You do realize it's a TOY/GAME?

When there's time for it, and interest from others fine. Enjoy. But it has to be last on the list...truly LAST...and know that it isn't "interacting" much. It's a low level of involvment, the type of thing Homer Simpson does as quality time.

I KNOW some of the games vary and you can work together. I see my kids do that. But I also see a lot of mediocre disconnected relationshps b/c a TV or video asks so little of the player, emotionally. Hence the appeal, and hence the high divorce rate and LOW marital satisfaction.


- Although I was sharing openly the finances with W, she still thinks I was hiding stuff from her.(Unbelievable, I know...)

are you being sarcastic, b/c I can't tell? Why would that be "unbelievable" of you?

I don't know you but nothing you've done makes me think it's "unbelievable" so I guess we can chalk this up to a language problem.

I recall that You wanted her to cut corners on housing or furnishings costs and NOT to invest in a college fund for the baby, but you bought yourself expensive toys and items of prestige. Perhaps that embarrassed you? I don't know. But your tone is odd here.

The gesture you made to suddenly donate some funds into his account was made in anger, as if to "prove her wrong". Not as a realization of yours that indeed, your w showed good sense...

do you see the distinction?

/color]

Therefore, make a conscious effort to show her all the movements, bills, accounts, and ask her often if this or that buy is a good deal, good idea, if she agrees, etc...
[color:#990000]
being transparent is crucial. And smart.

Asking for her opinion only counts if it is sincere. Would it be, or Would you patronizingly EXPLAIN to her why she's being "too emotional" or wrong?

Would you want her to see how much she'll suffer if she divorces you?

I am not trying to bash you here but this comment of yours, surprises me. Check your motives.

- Try to not argue, but if it happens, try to see her point of view, calm down, show understanding rather than try to make a point across, agree to talk about it later...

Arguing fair is not a problem. But always, always, learn to see her point of view. it does NOT mean you must agree w/it. But if you literally cannot see it, then you have a huge problem.

Get the ego out of things, believe it's possible for you to be wrong, and LISTEN to her without ANY judgement. And yes, for God's sake, see her point of view in all ways possible.

If you had, you'd be farther along. I feel as if every other post of yours shows backward movement.

Now at this stage of my sitch though, let's pretend I succeeded transforming myself into the better man everybody is talking about, how is this going to help winning W back ?

IT MIGHT NOT WIN HER BACK!!!

And if it does, it will likely take so many months of you becoming the man you ought to be, that to you, it's not worth it.

But to ME and most people here, your growth & improvement as a man/father is THE most important thing you can gain here, NOT your w.

It may not ever happen and if it does, it may well be AFTER the divorce is final. At least then she'd know the changes were real and not tactics, which they all seem to be, even now despite your frequent protestations to the contrary.

This is still a game of you wanting a simple formula that guarantees her return- and if she does not return

she is wrong/wrong/wrong and you are sad/depressed and a "wreck"...as if this is some terrible thing that happened to you...

As I said on my thread, the course of action for you/LBS is the same, regardless of what SHE chooses.

But You keep rejecting that. I'm sorry it isn't something you're able to process.

Self improvement & personal growth are the only things we "guarantee" by working this program.

WE have found it greatly Increases the chance of a lasting reconciliation, but it does Not promise one.

Because, in all humility, what you don't seem to understand is that I've been picking up, and bringing S back, twice a week, (that is showing up 4 times a week), since the new year, (basically ringing at her door 30+ times) and she is nowhere to be seen!
Has anyone dealt with a WAS not in sight !

do you READ what I write to you? (Even just my signature block? )
Sometimes I do wonder if you lack empathy, like as an actual disability...

"in all humility", you've been at this for what, 6=7 weeks?

Bruce, wake up. My h was GONE for 2 years...he lived in another state for a year, 3000 miles North of here, as far as you and your w were living til you moved to Canada. But for longer.

So we "saw" each other maybe every 6 weeks at times. And by "Saw" each other, that might mean a brief phone call or text or email.

Sometimes more, but not always. You've been doing this 6 weeks now?

If you could, for just one minute, show empathy for ME, how do you think it feels for me to read your question and know you have not even recalled a single detail of my own history which is on every post I send to you in the signature block?

How do you think your wife would view that question?

it's as if you believe your situation is mostly HER fault AND ALSO, MUCH harder on you than on others and harder on you than on her.

But Bruce, I don't think those things are true. MY situation was harder and longer and frankly a lot more unfair. But I don't carp about that or we would not be married now. You need to decide if you want to be right, or happy. You won't be seen as "right" around here much, so that leaves being happy or staying stuck.

The fact that you would like to date, have still not made friends, or GAL, although you only have your son twice a week, & you have still not forced the issue of more custody for your son, all make me think you are not ready for the real work of piecing, let alone reconciling. It is not easy.

It's a daily choice to let go of the past, NOT see yourself as the victim and taking the high road without thinking of it as higher than hers.

If I were your w, I am not at all sure I would believe marriage to you now,
would be better or different than before. At least not for long.

That's^^^ a real problem.

Now, I was trying to not read into it at the beginning, but she can't be absent 30 times in a row, therefore she is avoiding to come down and see me when I ring. --> Is it because she is pissed off at my sworn declaration in response that makes sense and is credible by any judge, and feels that she might "lose" 50% of S?

Does it matter why she is avoiding you? She does not want to see you or have a conflict or scene with you. So, The calmer and less obsessive and less upset you are when you come to see your son, the LESS she'll feel the need to hide.
Don't be a man who needs to be avoided.

IF you were not so focussed on this, with an obvious agenda of seeing her

she might begin to feel relaxed enough to want to see her son off and say good bye.

But you have spent far too much time on this exact issue and you have no power over it. Drop it.

IN TIME, which you have given so little of to DBing, she will feel differently.

Do not read into the legal proceedings b/c the more you get to see him, the harder it'll be for her to avoid all the "interactions" and when his birthday comes or other big days, you'll be part of them...(unless you return to France each time.)


Is it because court hearing is approaching and she has been instructed to limit interaction? (since I widely used our emails exchanges to prove just the opposite of all that what she claimed).

Again, why does this^^ matter? Your "need" to see her smacks of control and manipulation and DOES make it seem as if you are using the son as a means to an end.

You simply spend too much time on it. Stop making time with her, the goal. You pretend it's not, you may even believe it. I'm so sorry, I do not believe it.

That is the advantage I was telling you about with the "supervised" visits : at least I got to see her, and talk to her a little bit, crack jokes, be relaxed, etc... (but might've been pursuing also...) you think?

whereas now, with unsupervised, I pick S up, and that's it.. no interaction with W whatsoever.

and so...what? You think it's better if you lose time with him b/c...you might get to see her? Do you not see through this ruse of yours? What did all that "relaxed time with her" do for you?

Why are you even asking this?

YES you see HER less now but no, WE do not know why.

WE only believe you will likely get more time with your son, the sooner you work things out in court.

That's all we can predict with some degree of likelihood, assuming you are safe and healthy with him.

The rest is up to you. Handling things agreeably, as if you GET IT, that you were NOT a good enough h to her. You wish you had been but you'll make the best of being given the gift of fatherhood & go "from this day forward".

Maybe you'll become a great partner in the future and maybe another woman will benefit from it, as will you and your son.

Or maybe your wife will benefit...we don't know. So much of this depends on your ability to take in new information & use it. So far, I'm not encouraged.

As an engineer, I'd suggest you begin building yourself up, brick by brick.

And stop imagining the view of the rooftop until the foundation has been laid.


How do you think I should handle this "coldness"?

There is NO coldness. She's not seeing you. SHe is avoiding further pain or conflict with you. How is that "cold"?


Be cold in return or be warm for both of us (act as if)? What is the best attitude in my emails?

Bruce, did you read the DB books or not? There are answers in there...

No you do NOT act cold to her EVER. That gets you nowhere. It makes you look petty. How do you not see that by now.

Bruce be honest...have you gotten and read the Div Busting or Div Remedy book?

You are NEVER to be rude to her, even in the face of rudeness which I'm NOT sure I've seen from her

but even if I did, we "LBS'ers are always taking the high road. We do NOT show our anger.

WE do NOT show self pity or play the victim. We don't whine about OUR Unmet needs.

Those are NOT attractive traits.We are interested, interestING people with friends, places to go and things to do. We learn to meet our own needs. We are loving happy witty people, and only a fool would leave one of us.

That's^^ your approach, regardless of what she does.

OBVIOUSLY if she spat in your face you could react in a CALM way that shows you believe she has embarrassed herself & that you deserve better. You could smile through that b/c it's hard to be cruel to someone who is always kind to you, OR you could say "I deserve better than that, especially with our son here" and leave her w/an air of pity for HER to have fallen so low.

But short of that, I'd act as if, just like the books say...

We make the most of a bad situation. We know we're being watched and scrutinized. We know the first nasty or "cold" response we give will be fuel to their fire. We'll only help them justify why they left. Do NOT fuel her fire. Do NOT make her glad she's out of your life by reacting coldly or with any anger or petty behaviors.

You MUST grasp this.


Keep being short and direct and only talk about S ?(I find it so disagreeable...

Was prolonging things helping you? NO, it lead her to disengage completely.

but you instructed me to).

so blame US if she doesn't return..??.


Be more affable but run the risk of being considered as pursuing and trying to be right?

a man being affable, without an agenda, a man NOT seeking his own reward, is not pursuing.

Is this a behavior you can pull off? I"m being serious.

So far it has not been achievable so I ask you, are you able to interact with her without expecting some reward?

I'm truly sorry if these questions seem to be redundant, but the situation keeps morphing, with more subtleties each time, and what I held true a month ago doesn't apply anymore.
yes it does apply. You're being impatient.

Thank you my friends,
Bruce

Hang in there Bruce, maybe you'll get it.