EXPERIMENTING with physical touch with W

[leopoldstotch]

Oh SM you just don't get it I'm afraid. Tallula and gabbysmom23 hae both said it perfectly. So you want answers? Well my friend since I'm more experienced than you are when it comes to affairs here is your answer and it's not going to be what you want to hear.

You cannot and will not GET your W to work on your M or believe you are changed. As far as this "fog" goes believe me SM she is not a walking zombie who has no clue as to what she is doing. She knows what she is doing. She may not understand the consequences of her actions but she knows what she is doing.

Odds are SM your M is going to come to the brink of ending or it will end in order for it to be saved. That is the reality of your sitch. Go back and read the success stories of those that involved affairs and that is exactly what you will see. Those marriages were on deaths doorstep before the cheating spouse realized that they didn't want to end things. It also happened to me not once but twice. So you see there is no GETTING your W wake up the way things stand now.

I'am not aware of any successful reconciliations that involved an A where the LBS managed to get their S to wake up. All the stories I know of involved something drastic happening but bear in mind that in all those stories the LBS was truly ready to move on with their life. I've told you plenty of times that these were not tricks to get your S back and I'm not sure you understand that. I've also told you that IF their is to be a R that you two have a long road ahead of you. I really think from reading your posts that you are still looking for a quick fix and there isn't one. SM this could take years to resolve.

[AnotherStander]

25, Adinva, Crimson, Leo, all of you have valid and helpful experience, but for someone reason I am attacked, and labeled codependant and all this stuff that is not constructive. Please help me answer my issues.

SM34, here comes the biggest 2x4 I have ever given anyone on this forum and never have I seen a person more deserving of it. You are so unbelievably hard-headed that it's actually painful to read your posts. I honestly don't hold out much hope for your marriage at this point unless you change, because saving it requires a change that I'm not sure you're capable of. That change is to set your bloated ego aside and assume a more humble posture, one of a learner instead of what you think you are (a teacher). You spend a ridiculous amount of effort trying to convince everyone here that they are wrong and you are right. That is time you could be spending actually improving yourself and GAL'ing and possibly saving your M in the process, but instead you choose to waste it here talking about how all the advice is bogus. I have read every single post here and have yet to see an attack on you, that is purely a fabrication in your mind and is probably an indication of why your marriage failed- you refuse to see your own faults. So you've got to decide one simple thing, do you want to be right or do you want to be happily married? Because for now, you're digging in your heels on being right. Drop the ego. Start with a beginner's mind. Quit arguing. Focus on accepting your own problems and doing something about them. Quit obsessing about every little thing your W says or does and what it means. Quit trying to figure out how to fix her. Start figuring out how to fix yourself.

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool, shun him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child, teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep, wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise, follow him.

[Crimson]

I'm kind of in a rush, so I will be brief.

Honestly, SM, no one here is beating you up...or even trying to. So many of us are getting over our own personal pains that we don't have the drive or desire to inflict any more on another person.

Rather, we are ALL seeing you sound alseep at the wheel of a Ferrari burning the road up towards a deep, deep cliff. We are trying to wake you up, SM....not put you down or berate you. When people STOP trying to help you - then worry.

More to say....no time.

Crimson

[adinva]

It is often the words that grate the most that it is worth the most to drop your offense and pay attention to. No one here gets jollies out of saying you're overly attached to your wife's behaviors and that your history as you've described it sounds codependent.

You're trying to control this all. Who posts to you, what they post to you and why they are the right ones to post that to you, what you don't want to hear and what you think will help save your marriage and what you think won't. What people are trying to get across to you is that you don't know what you don't know here. Reread Michelle's chapter on the beginner's mind.

We are all in the same boat with you whether you think it makes a difference who's male or female or not. I actually believe it does not matter at all. I've tried to help you rethink some of your ideas about females that you gathered recently in some books you had read, as well as ideas that you seem to have had over a longer term than that, and this may be part of the specifics of your situation. But the core of your situation is the same no matter whether you're the h or the w, no matter whether they're in an affair or not.

You suggested that only the WASs in an affair really are like drugged, really don't know what they're doing, and the others are making conscious rational decisions and are open to being convinced to come back. Not true. Otherwise this would be a site of only affairs because all the others, like mine, would already be back in a happy marriage. The same advice holds for every single one of us. You can stop making things worse. You must focus on improving yourself. The odds for your marriage are not good.

You skipped over my comment that no one here "saved" their marriage. You really need to understand that you cannot control this outcome, and none of those other guys controlled their outcomes either. That is why you keep hearing the same advice, to focus on yourself. It really is all you can do.

[lostinscared]

Hey SM, I will leave the others to help you, but one thing that caught my eye was your statement that you want to take advice from those that made it work. Perfectly understandable and on paper, rational... however, I thought you might be interested in the attached article:

Your Divorced Friends May Give The Best Marriage Advice
http://todayhealth.today.com/_news/2012/...age-advice?lite

I wish you the best of luck.

LIS

[MrBond]

" So please stop trying to analyze me. You don't know me, and you don't understand me. Just help me with answers to questions i have, or if you don;t have answers to them just tell me you don't."

What an @$$.

You don't get it. You can't just take the answers that fall in line with your thinking. There is no absolute answer to these things. The only person who knows what their going through is your W.

And all that nonsense about her 'culture' is just more excuses. Even in the most marriage honoring societies there are people who have A's. It just is. People are people.

Bottom line is that you have a WAS who is going out with OP. That's the same thing many many many people have had to go through and are trying to offer you advice but you keep discarding them.

Really ungrateful sounding.

[Crimson]

"I wish she was level headed and just living alone like your W is/was. Then things would make sense to her and she could evaluate things objectively."

Regarding this ^^^^, holy crap do I ever wish that was the case when it was all going down. I did not for a second think that she was being level headed. I didn't think she was able to evaluate things objectively at the time, either. Once I got my head screwed on correctly it became clear (read some of my older posts from about a year ago) that she really wasn't. NOTWITHSTANDING - after several blistering 2x4s it finally hit me that there wasn't really a thing that I could do if she was or wasn't. MAYBE...and this is a big "maybe"....some day long down the road if we are able to put it all back together she may look back and say "wow...that was not a good time for either of us....I'm sorry" - but I neither expect nor demand it.

I guess what I am saying is that I KNOW I did not have an OM to contend with, but the line of thought and dissatisfaction she felt is no different than what your W is living. The difference is my XW never acted on things, but that was it - I just as easily could have been in your situation.

Again - I am not beating up on you in the least. I do have hope for you and your life - you are getting a big share of attention from great posters. Keep your mind open.

Crimson

[Navyguy]

Not sure why everyone is tearing me up.

Do you honestly think people here are attacking you?!?!?!? You are getting reactions and advice based upon what you post here, and those reactions and advice are based upon our knowledge and experiences. Simple as that.

The constant statements along the lines of "I prefer advice from men that actually saved their marriage" or "I'm going to be peculiar about what advice I take" are why you're getting so much "love" right now. People here are just trying to help. The reason posts on your thread have taken such a blunt form is because you're arguing with it - and when boiled down, everyone (those that did save their M and those that didn't) is telling you the same things. If you don't like someone's advice, all you have to do is simply say thanks, and then ignore it.

I'm here on this board to get help to achieve my goal, to fix my marriage.

You're not going to "fix" anything. If you don't understand that, everything you do is having the opposite effect of what you are hoping. Guaranteed.

I was referring to the men who offer me advise that seems more on the lines of helping me get over my M and moving towards divorce, and how to cope with that.

Since you keep bringing this up, and I posted something along those lines, let me clarify for you. Please, please don't take this as judging. I am taking the time to write this because I have been through what you are going through. Whether or not there is an OM is irrelevant to the point I am making...please bear with me here.

I told you that if you had detached, you'd have D papers waiting for your W the next time she came home from seeing OM, right?

Well, this is really two closely intertwined ideas we talk about on here with regularlity. First is setting boundaries. You state you are ok with W carrying on with OM. Are you really ok with that? Or are you just putting up with it in order to avoid further conflict with W? Or do you think she's going to think "wow, what a great guy, he lets me do whatever I want!"? Second is detaching. I don't think anyone can clearly answer the questions I just asked you until they have detached. And TBH, I don't think you have a clue what "detached" means. Here's why:

It seems that to you being detached means you don't care about your Spouse, and i feel that is a sure quick way to end up divorced!

Personally, I don't think you're detached at all. Nor do I believe you are co-dependant. It's not an one-or-the-other thing.

So back to the point - people are telling you to detach because it will enable you to set clear and enforcable boundaries in your M that will allow you to move forward in whatever way you choose. The SM I see right now isn't capable of that. He's an intelligent, responsible, loyal, and devoted guy that made some mistakes in his M. But he's also being cheated on and used by his W, and making decisions in his own life based upon how his W will react to them. And of all the people in the world, those who choose to be here know that's no way to live. Some here might even take that personally, due to their own past experiences. (Again, if you percieve an overreaction, just nod and smile. No need to point it out.)

For example, there was a time when I would unequivocally answer "YES!" if someone asked me the question "would you stay with W if she had a PA?". Why would I have answered "YES!"? Because I was holding myself accountable for her actions. She was confused, she was in a "fog", she had a rough childhood, she felt unfulfilled, she was stressed, etc, etc. It couldn't have been her fault!!!

I loved her then, and I love her now. Real, no s***, devoted, selfless love, the entire time.

If someone asked me the same question today, the answer would be "no, I would want a D", and I would take the necessary actions. This is not something I take lightly, it absolutely does not mean I do not love her, and it doesn't preclude me from changing my mind someday. It just means that I feel like I deserve better than being treated that way. My decision is based on a LOT of factors in my life. Yours may be different.

So, back to my original statement (D papers waiting for your W the next time she came home from seeing OM). Pre-detaching, there's no way I could have done that. Now, I could do it. It would hurt...but I'd do it.

All that being said, I apologize for the blanket statement on the D papers...it was based upon my experiences and me seeing a lot of myself in you...but maybe it's not right for you.

And that being said, I stand behind what I said about detaching and your lack thereof 110%. Also know this - not being detached is not a flaw. And trust me, anyone that implies otherwise has multiple 8' 2x4's headed their way. Detaching is an un-natural reaction to the situations we are in...but I don't know of anything that will help you help yourself more.

[25yearsmlc]

geez, there are some articulate people here. I hope you take in SOME of what is said b/c I know you'll resist most of it.

Too bad.

I'm only going to say ONE thing. You harp a lot about your w and the OM. You insist she's in a fog and it's like an addiction and yada yada. I don't discount all that at all.

do Not misunderstand OR misquote. But I read more books on MLC than DBing and it was utterly useless.

Your lectures (and that is what they are) sounds so much like what I would read and talked & talked about with "MLC" and my sitch and the reality is that

it makes NO difference if it's an OP or an MLC or they are a WAS...

in terms of what WE must do in Our lives.


That's the single biggest reason it's wasteful to keep talking about it. It does NOT change what you must do.


Plus, your w told you BEFORE the OM about the problems in the m. You keep acting as if nothing was bad before he came along, but that's a lie you keep tellng yourself. Why?

When you admit dropping the ball in the m, the next sentence is a defense of why you did it (& all "noble reasons" of course. You worked too hard, SHE didn't compliment you enough for you to feel good about yourself, the "stress" of it, not making enough money to feel confident, etc.)

and now, you are basically telling us that taking vitamins has fixed all YOUR issues.

IF SO, you ought to market those things.

[SM34]

Ok now those posts are what I need. =)

Reality checks but also mixed with some advice and some motivational comments. Thank you everyone for taking interest.

25,, I did say in my post that I am still working I the things that caused me to withdraw a little during my M.

Since a lot of our issues stemmed from financial difficulty, I am taking thus time (the gift of time as cadet says) to better my business by undergoing some much needed expansion.

I am also developing the skills needed to manage from a distance by delegating and also establishing a chain of command so I don't have to be so involved. That's how I have been able to be home by 5.30pm for a couple months now (one of my 180s).

I am also learning to cope with stress, or more correctly I am learning to relieve my stress through exercise and stretching. I would like to take a yoga relaxation class also as part of this personal goal.

The vitamins are only one aspect of the things I am doing to make sure that my hectic life does not affect my mood and my sex drive.

Plus just the fact that I had a nuclear bomb go off in my lap will mean I won't allow myself to slack on my W (or future spouse) needs.

I am also working on trying to be more sociable, also as a,way to blow off steam. I just discussed it with my brother who runs a very hectic business and has two young kids but manages to stay happy. He said his motto is work hard, play harder. So I am going to try to live this.

If I had to summarize the problems in my M as far as what I caused, I would say it was a stressful business life and lack of personal ability and tools to deal with the stress and not let it bring me down. So all the things I have highlighted are ways to rid myself if this problem so I can be happier =) so far it is working quite well.

I thought about the fact that I had asked for help to 'fix' my marriage. This is not exactly possible and I understand that.

I understand now the paradox. I must get myself to a point where I am confident I will be fine with or without my wife so that I can set boundaries for what I will and will not allow. Then in doing so, my W may respect me enough to want to try our M again. Of course she has to see that I have changed and that our finances can be better and that I can deal with the stresses of my business life and not let them affect my ability to be affectionate.

What I need help with, is what to do in the meantime. I am working on the things I mentioned and also some other 180s. But my W still lives with me and we have very positive interactions.

I need pointers to make sure I don't slip into the 'friends' category.

I need pointers on how to flirt with her without being clingy or needy or pursuing. Like 25 suggested that perhaps I smack her behind or whatever I used to do before BD. Also she suggested that perhaps I mention to wife that my new relaxed self, and vitamin loaded, and exercised and rested body is now hornier than ever, and that she is missing out. Just to get her to wonder and to think about that our M does not have to be sex starved.

So these are the kind of tips I am looking for. Like i said , everyone just has to trust that I am working in my 180s and changes, and on detaching and for us to move past that. I guess that is what I would like, optimally. Sorry if i was rude about it guys =(

So I haven't tried any touch again. But I have been inside of W physical personal space and she didn't back away. So I will have to report these things to laurie and see what next.

If anyone has tips on interacting with W while I reach full detachment, please offer it! I need to build respect and also show her a loving caring husband so that when the time comes for us to separate, she will have these good last memories of me.

Thank you all again for your recent posts. They made perfect sense to me, and I enjoyed seeing that you all meant well when you were being brutal to be. It felt like an attack, a bombardment from every direction, but now I see it was all 'from a place of love'.