EXPERIMENTING with physical touch with W

[SM34]

Thank you everyone! I read all the comments and will take some time to absorb them all and then write up a post tonight.

Thank you all again for your help... It is much appreciated.

[SM34]

I re read ALL the posts everyone wrote in response to my physical touch experiment.

25 yes, I read the post you wrote to me that included Peanut's detaching explanation. I am not going to lie and say I am completely detached, but I have come a LONG way in the 2 months.

I don't text my W unless it is related to D3 or in response to her messages. I'm following Laurie's recommendation which is since the exchanges are pleasant and have smiley faces and lols, I am to "match the tone" in my responses. Positive texts get positive responses, and neutral gets neutral. We have no negative exchanges thankfully.

As far as the physical touch, I really was trying to "note" the response as Laurie told me to. I know it was too much, but why is everyone re hashing the detaching? I really wasn't jumping for joy when W didn't kick me in the b%lls for touching her =)

I love my W and my D3 and OUR family dearly. I do not want it to end here! However, I am very proud of myself with how far I have come in being "emotionally" independent, which I think is what detachment is.

Advina, I believe that when my W actions no longer affect my psychological state, then I have reached true detachment. Right now, I would say I am perhaps half way there, if there was such a thing.

I don't hang on everything she does. I am doing my 180s but I'm also not being a doormat and over doing it with household chores. I work hard and pay bills, and W needs to do her part of running the household =) I will NOT run around doing everything for her.

I am coming home at 5.30 every day, I'm doing the home improvements on time, taking out the trash on time, and complimenting W here and there for things she has done, and complimenting her on looks ONCE a week. These are part of my 180s. But I am certainly not going to be kissing her butt to stay. I am a catch, and if she can't see it then its her loss =)

I was talking to mother in law when I went to drop D3 at her house for the night. She said something interesting, that perhaps I need a new 180 for. She said W told her that her biggest complaint about me is that I am "oblivious" to anything that doesn't smack me across the head.

Not sure what that is all about. MIL told me she would talk to me more in depth about it when we have some time. She is really trying to help me because she loves me so much. She still tells me that I am the son she never had, and that she will NEVER warm up to OM, EVER. I'm being cautious with MIL since everyone has warned about that, but really for the first 10 years of our relationship, my mother still lived overseas, and MIL was really my mother away from home. She is awesome and we have a great relationship.

So, tonight W is with OM, and D3 is at MIL. I took the crew from work out for dinner after work. We had a nice company dinner which we haven't done in a long time. Kind of celebrated the new store I am purchasing. Guys are really excited, so are my parents, so is MIL, and so is W (probably mad I didn't do it earlier).

After dinner, I went and treated myself to a much needed 1 hour massage. Best thing I have done in a long LONG time. It was nice to have a woman run her hands all over me and rub out my knots. And boy were there knots! Its amazing the condition our bodies can be in after the bomb isn't it?

The masseuse was hitting on me BIG TIME. She kept telling that she loves my dimples (yes I have dimples on both cheeks). Then she enjoyed rubbing my clean shaved head. Then she proceeded to ask me how far away I lived and that she is done with work after this massage. I had to kindly decline the offer, although I must say it was tempting... she was hot and its been 2 months now!!

Funny thing is, I am wearing my wedding ring, and I know she saw it because she was rubbing my hand. Its amazing how people don't respect marriage anymore. My W has an OM hit on her to the point that he convinces her to leave her 14 year marriage with a 3 year old, and I'm being hit on by a woman who knows (or thinks) I am married. Crazy stuff. People need to respect that a little, because you know what they say, you are only as faithful as your options.... so options should be limited!

Enjoyed the night very much. Good self esteem boost to have a girl who massages men all day long actually tell me I am cute and how adorable my dimples are.

Settling in to watch TV, feeling very relaxed, and don't care at all what W is upto. Havent heard from her since this morning when she left. Well except she messaged me that she thinks she is coming home tomorrow instead of Sunday (not sure why she is cutting it short). I answered "OK".

[SM34]

Oh by the way, I wear my wedding ring because my W is still wearing hers. She doesn't wear her diamond engagement ring, but she wears her wedding band, so I keep mine on.

Only a hand full of people know what is going on with us. The other 99% of people we know, including her huge family, have no idea. So just in case I run into someone somewhere, I need to keep my wedding ring on until W decides to start telling everyone.

She is still not telling anyone knew. Not really sure why. Used to think it is because she hasn't decided yet. She does seem to be enjoying the attention from TWO men, a contrast from the lack of attention she feels I gave her.

I didn't do any touching since that one day that I posted about. But, as Laurie asked me to do, I tried to sit next to W to see if she would appear uncomfortable. W was trying to get a hair clip in D3 hair, but was struggling to keep her still, so I sat next to W on the couch and held D3 while she put the hair clip in. After D3 ran away, W and I stayed next to each other for about 3 minutes, until I cut it short and got up to do something else (like Sandi's rules say to be the one to end exchanges, not the WAS).

[adinva]

What on earth is "you're only as faithful as your options." You've mentioned that a couple of times and I find it, I don't know, disgusting. Who says that?

[SM34]

It's a saying, isn't it? I'm a believer in that opposite sex friendships are dangerous and there isn't room for then in marriage.

I haven't had any girl friends since I got married but W always believes it was ok to have man friends, because they were only friends.

But this is what happens when you have an option. When you are in a bad place in your life, or your marriage, the option can sometimes become a shoulder, and then a little more. Pretty soon it's an A.

Just my opinion.

[GH31]

She is still not telling anyone knew. Not really sure why.

I'm sure.

So she can keep the OM plate and SM34 plate spinning.

Used to think it is because she hasn't decided yet.

Rubbish.

Her brain chemistry is such that she literally cannot decide.

She does seem to be enjoying the attention from TWO men, a contrast from the lack of attention she feels I gave her.

Yep.

The plates again.

Never trust a skinny chef, as they say.

My criteria for acting people's advice was as follows:

Did this person successfully restore their marriage or ultimately move on to a much happier place?

If yes, take advice.

If no or not yet, ignore advice.

Be ruthless about what you use and what you don't.

GH31

[25yearsmlc]

What on earth is "you're only as faithful as your options." You've mentioned that a couple of times and I find it, I don't know, disgusting. Who says that?

I'm American, born & raised, with Franco American parents. I've NEVER heard that phrase and found it repulsive.

As a lawyer, in the Army, I was surrounded by men at a ratio of about 10 - 1. I'm attractive and at that time, was 30 y/o. I never cheated. I don't believe my h did either, and as an MD he is surrounded by women, esp nurses.

If we worried about the "options" we each had, we'd have been paralyzed by jealous insecurities.

It's a crazy phrase I've never heard before. I put no stock in it at all.

I reject the assertion of the 'saying' I never heard. Just mho.

[25yearsmlc]

She is still not telling anyone knew. Not really sure why.

I'm sure.

So she can keep the OM plate and SM34 plate spinning.

Used to think it is because she hasn't decided yet.

Rubbish.

Her brain chemistry is such that she literally cannot decide.

Not to quibble, but I think if your wife were sure she was "in love" with THE Mr Right, she'd tell some people AND that does happen sometimes.

I'd certainly feel worse about things if the time came when she began to announce their new R.

In Keepgoing's case, for instance, her h is introducing his OW to his family, as his new and "lasting real love" and that hurts. I think her h BELIEVES he should be with OW, and that's not a good sign for their chance of recon.

So some WASs do decide. Sometimes I think it's because they get cornered and challenged (by the LBSer or family) and then they want to prove they were "right" to leave, so they are "IN LOVE w/NEW OP" and sometimes even rush into marrying them.

OTher times they have already convinced themselves it's easier to start with a new person than to work on old problems,

AND OR they were lonely or hurting a lot longer than the LBSer realizes, (right or wrong) and so, the WAS chooses to start fresh and not look back.

It's not common but it does happen.

She does seem to be enjoying the attention from TWO men, a contrast from the lack of attention she feels I gave her.

Yep.

The plates again.

[color:#990000]
Well who wouldn't enjoy that? Also, why are you limiting compliments to once a week? How much of an increase is that? Is it even a 180? Seriously, I get compliments from my h on a daily basis and in his MLC it was more than once a week.

Is touching her easier than complimenting her? Surprising.

Does it feel more awkward to express a positive thought about her, to her? Can you tell US why you love her? I'm trying to understand the difficulty you are having w/it.

[/color]

Never trust a skinny chef, as they say.

My criteria for acting people's advice was as follows:

Did this person successfully restore their marriage or ultimately move on to a much happier place?

If yes, take advice.

If no or not yet, ignore advice.

Be ruthless about what you use and what you don't.

GH31

Not sure what context the word "ruthless" is about...but surely SM, if someone is still apart from their spouse and is still angry or bitter about it

they may have valid insights into how YOU FEEL, but I would not try out their behavioral choices if they had no success in them.

And make sure you define "success" the same way.

There are some folks who think forcing their WAS to feel shame is a "win". Some think if their LBSer crawls home with their tail between their legs-that is a great goal...

but I've never heard of a shamed spouse returning AND restoring a marriage.

I know two spouses who returned home after being "exposed" to 3rd parties and or financially extorted into coming home.

To my knowledge, a year+ later, they are still not intimate...

To me, that's not a "restored" m. IT's a surrender that is likely to be a temporary one. But to hear their LBS spouses talk, it's as if they are great examples of what works...(and it was not DBing, btw, but they come here to post)...

I'm not disagreeing with GH so much as explaining why SOME folks who don't make it are still quite worth listening to. They can tell you what did not help them and they can FEEL your pain too. They can GAL well and become happy single people, often finding new better r's down the road. When they talk about GAL, listen.

Honestly, sometimes folks here are good at teaching us what NOT to do.

Listen to their tone, too. If it's an angry or self righteous one OR if they still bemoan their victimization, spew about their WAS years later, and see no need to change THEMSELVES significantly,

they are lost souls who will wallow in their bitter wounded egos for a long time.

One woman here, posts about her h being "evil" but she "wants him home NOW!" and he's been living with OW for 4 years now. She condemns him one day only to cry about his departure, the next.

There has been NO attempt or discussion of a recon but divorce will cost HIM more. She finds it "confusing and hopeful" that they might reconcile someday...but no one else sees it that way. No change in 4 years...probably 5 years now.


That LBSer is still very depressed and very enraged and to my knowledge agrees to change NOTHING IN HER. She thinks GAL would be fun IF IT WERE EASIER but as for her judgemental recriminations and lashing out

she sees nothing wrong with it. She forgives nothing. She is STUCK with capital letters.

To me, she's a lesson in what NOT to do. And her son is increasingly resenting HER. I'm no shrink but her reactions, this much later, seem unhealthy to me.

Point is, some people fall when this BD happens and we ALL stumble and have to lean...but some fall, and never get up!

...and some still don't think it's their job to pick themselves up.

It's ALL STILL their WAS fault. I must ask, How can anything in an LBSers life, be an ex's fault, 4 years later?

Sorry for the tangent.

[SM34]

GH31 yes you are right. I do believe she is stalling in case OM doesn't work out. Of course me, her mom, and everyone who knows about this is pretty sure it will NOT work out. He still has made no effort to move to our city, doesn't drive here to see here like he did the first week, and hasn't gotten a second job. its all lies, and when W sees that it will be a HUGE reality check.

Of course there is no guarantee that will be enough to bring her back to me. So I'm not holding my breath! I'm going on with my life as if she is leaving, although I do believe she won't.

Haven't heard from her since yesterday. I'm at work right now, and don't really care much what she is up to. Mother in law did message me to tell me W told her she IS coming home today instead of tomorrow. Again, not sure why, don't care much. Just happy it is one less night with OM.

I have been paying more attention to who I take advise from on this board. There are many unsuccessful poeople, although I think some of them got to a point where their W hated them with a passion, and thankfully that is not where I am. If it was, I would be realistic about my chances.

I'm still working on my attractiveness, for W or for whoever I end up with =). I am practicing heavy eye contact, enjoying positive interaction with other women, (like the masseuse who was hitting on me). Havent had much time to read lately but I will finish the Men's guide to better relationships and marriage soon.

Please come back soon and offer me some tips on how to work my osition. It is nice to get a man';s perspective especially from a man who actually saved his marriage.

[SM34]

25 I would like to discuss some things with you regarding what you wrote. But first I would like to say please don't feel like I am not detaching enough. I am working on that.

I believe you are a VERY intelligent person and as I have gotten to know how you think, I can say I am very impressed with your knowledge and your ability to reason. For that reason, I would like to expand on some of the points you made. Also as a type of therapy session for me =)

I believe my W is very confused and is very naiive. I say this "from a place of love and respect" for her, not in a way of looking down on her or disrespectfully. My W is the sweetest most loving person I have met, and I was lucky to be able to scoop her up when she was 17. As her mother always says, she has lived a very privileged life since then, and again I say this from a place of love, not to try to toot my own horn.

So basically she really hasn't had any experience with the lies and deceitful ways that horny single guys can have, she believes OM has good intentions. One of her best friends is a 37 year old never married, never had a long relationship woman. She has never found a decent guy, and every one of them cheats on her, or somehow disrespects her. She was shocked and told my W that she needs to try very very hard to work it out with me, because good loyal men are in short supply, especially when you get into the 30 something category because all will have kids and baggage from previous relationships that only complicate things.

So, from a place of love, and in the true spirit of being the lighthouse for my wife, that is kind of why I have left her to learn this lesson her own. I'm constantly getting advise from people that I should have the divorce documents ready in hand, or boot her out, and how can I let her do this. Honestly it is a little frustrating because I come here to get level headed, loving advise from people such as yourself, and also a man's perspective (like GH31) who has been successful. When someone jumps in and starts judging me and how my self esteem must be so low it is SO frustrating.

As I said before, and you and many others pointed out that all this stuff doesn't help me in my current sitch, I have a lot of good qualities. I have a double bachelors in Computer Science and Engineering. I finished most of my MBA. I run two businesses, about to be three. My only brother, and my father are also business owners. I come from a long line of smart successful people. So basically I know I can move on, and I know that if need be, someone else will appreciate those things. But I also know my W, and I believe she is confused...very very confused.

Of course we have our issues, and of course I have flaws that need working on, but so does everyone. I could have been a WAS and W could be the LBS if I wasn't as loyal as I am. You can probably relate because you know you put up with some bad qualities in your husband (as does everyone) but he let your faults pull him away from you. If your loyalty wasn't as strong, it could have been the reverse.

I believe everyone is entitled or allowed ONE mistake in life. And if we truly love our spouse, we should be willing to let them make the mistake, and hope that by learning from it that it will make them stronger and in turn our marriage stronger.

I'm not in the camp that supports shaming my W back to the marriage, which is why I haven't done it. But I do agree that shame will cause people to rethink their position. I just think that she will shame herself without my input, as soon as she decides to start telling her family what she has done. I do not need to contribute to that, because it is inevitable. Again, not to toot my own horn, but people who know me think very highly of me. I am an honest, honorable, loving, caring, and trustworthy individual. Her family will be very disappointed in her for what she is doing.

Of course they will all want her to be happy, but I don't think any of them will be convinced that she gave it her best. Because honestly she didn't. Well, she didn't get the chance to really. This is not really a view that is consistent with MWD principles, but I think people here don't factor in the power of affairs and what they can do to people's ability to think logically.

This relationship fell in her lap. It started as innocent messaging, and then escalated as affairs do. The excitement, the deceit, the kinkiness etc.. sucked her in during a moment of weakness. And once you get past a certain point, there is no turning back until the affair burns itself out. I understand this completely and that is why I am letting this go and letting her experience this error, and what effects it will have on her life and mine, as well as one cute innocent 3 year old. I think she needs this experience in order to grow and get to a point where she understands that marriage is sacred, and that no matter what, we should always been there for each other! Or if she never gets to that point, then there is nothing I can do and I can;t force her to get there.

I'm not angry about it anymore. I used to be angry at her for what she is doing. I used to be angry at myself for not catching the signs early enough. But now I realize that we should have better communication. I respect her needs and if i knew the extent to which they were bothering her, I would have been willing to go to counseling or whatever she thought would help.

I also feel that if her excuses for this behavior are legit, then she really wasn't cutting me any slack for carrying the burden of our family all by myself. Our growing family, and shrinking income, and my W really not wanting to share in this burden (even just to listen to me vent my frustration) was too much for me to cope with on my own. Our relationship needs to be stronger if we are to weather the storms that life brings upon us.

So when I ask people what I can be doing to try to get W to a better place quicker, I am doing it with all of this in mind. I'm doing it from a place of love! I know she doesn't hate me. I know she knows I am an excellent person. And I know she thinks we could have made it work, because she told me that when she said IF we had gone to counseling a couple months ago we could have been very happy by now. But OM came in to the picture and now the emotions, and the chemistry is too much for her to be able to think straight. This HAS to die a natural death for her to start seeing the bigger picture again.

Again, 25 I think you are an awesome woman. Your husband is extremely lucky to have you! And we are all extremely lucky to have you here on the board, dedicated to helping us all better understand our situations.

Perhaps now you understand me a little better. I am a strong person and like I have said many times, (and Advina mentioned that she liked this about me) I think very highly of myself. If I am displaying some neediness as far as W goes, it is truely because even though I can live without her, I want her.

I also feel terribly for my D3. I had the privilege of being raised in a stable household with two loving parents who are still together. I will do the impossible to try to give my daughter the same experience.

ESPECIALLY now that I understand more about the possible long term damage that divorce can have on a child. Look at how my W's experience with her mom and dad "quitting" has affected her decision making, versus how my experience with loyalty has affected my decision making.

Also, reading the MLC forum is CRAZY. In my home culture, we have never heard of a mid life crisis. I always wondered why people don't lose it in their 40s ass they seem to do here. Now, I understand that it is all to do with childhood experiences. Since my culture of origin does not support divorce, people have learned to "be happy with what they have" and so EVERYONE I know was raised in a two parent household. No one has the incredible amount of baggage that some have here. Makes me want to fight for my marriage (for my daughter's sake) even more. Not only would I be the first from literally hundreds of family members, to be divorced, but my daughter will be the first in ten's of generations of my family to grow up with separated parents.

It is not fair on her that I give up. So when I try to think of "tactics" to get my wife to "snap out of it", it is not due to my weakness, or my inability to move on. I don't think moving in is any of ours best interest. In fact, I think it is detrimental to all of us! My daughter will not have two parents, my wife's standard of living will drop considerably and at some point she will get hurt (because I can't protect her the rest of her life if she isn't my wife), and I will miss out on having the beautiful complete family that I myself had when I was growing up.

Its a game of cat and mouse. I have to be smart about the situation I am in. Hopefully I can turn it around!

Anyway, thank you for listening to me. It has been therapeutic to remind myself why I am putting up with this. It has also been nice to hear from you (25years) that a lot of the advise I have thrown at me is not sane. It has been nice to be reminded that you also share the idea that this should all be "from a place of love".

I will be careful who I listen to from now on! Please do remind me from time to time of that. Everyone one of the things I did or was doing, that you questioned, was actually from someone else. My next post will address this, so please check back to help me decipher what I am doing wrong.

Thanks 25, you are an incredible individual! I SOOOO appreciate your help, and you mentor ship.