TheUF - Changing gears - Dropping the rope?

[theUF]

I've had a feeling the last couple of days which got even stronger after reading 25's recent reply to Big Bruce. She really is of great value to this board.
Even though directed at BB it gave me some good insight to my own sitch as well.
I stood my ground on my hobbies and said beforehand I wouldn't give them up. She said she understood. Still, that didn't give me a free pass. I should have taken it down a notch, and been more available/present.

The feeling I have is that I'm struggling. Key word : communication.
My intentions are in the right place, yet I struggle to get in the mindset I need to communicate better. I know I will be ok either way this sitch turns out, but I really want to grow regardless of outcome!

We've had some phone calls, texts and Spent one hour together(w/S2). Face to face things are good, but often when she calls she is angry.
One of her complaints(180) has been that I don't listen enough. On the phone she got really angry and said I didn't listen. I replied to what she said so obviously I was.
Don't get me wrong I have always been a bad listener, which I am working on, but this was more like negative enforcment from her side("see why I left you?!)

She talked about quitting jobs and going on social security checks. (She used to hate healthy people doing that.) She changed it to quitting jobs to go to school again. I replied that it's far better than giving up and sitting back, and that she would get an opportunity to get proper education. IDK, I just feel I come off as patronizing. And I have been in the R as well. Shared little economy, bought an appartment for us w/o her, didn't act on many complaints she had, so forth.

I guess I need some tools for this.
She complained about phone/computer/gaming as well, and I've kept those to an absolute minimum as long as S is around. The problem is however communication/interaction skills.
I'm in the process of findng a C/therapist. Most have long waiting lists. Any suggestions to male vs female? One issue I believe is my R to my mother over the years.

Been sick on/off since December so GAL has been limited, but have had several get-togethers with people I don't usually hang out with. 180 for me.
Have plans for GAL as soon as I get well. Soul.Searching got me on the idea of water park/aquarium with S, bit of a travel but absolutely worth it.

[AnotherStander]

One of her complaints(180) has been that I don't listen enough. On the phone she got really angry and said I didn't listen. I replied to what she said so obviously I was.
Don't get me wrong I have always been a bad listener, which I am working on, but this was more like negative enforcment from her side("see why I left you?!)

Listening does not mean just hearing her words and responding. I don't think that's what she means. What she probably means is she wants you to understand her feelings. She wants to feel validated. Problem is, most of us have no idea how to do this! DR touches on it and RetroV is almost exclusively about training couples to do it, but basically when she's telling you something ask her how she feels about it. Happy? Angry? Sad? Ambivalent? Then talk to her about how intense that feeling is- strong/ middle/ weak. The idea isn't to fix her problems, it's just to find out how she feels, and validate her emotions.

She talked about quitting jobs and going on social security checks. (She used to hate healthy people doing that.) She changed it to quitting jobs to go to school again. I replied that it's far better than giving up and sitting back, and that she would get an opportunity to get proper education. IDK, I just feel I come off as patronizing.

Right, that's why the emotional validation is important. You're not agreeing/ disagreeing/ fixing/ explaining/ etc.

[Mach1]

The feeling I have is that I'm struggling. Key word : communication.
My intentions are in the right place, yet I struggle to get in the mindset I need to communicate better. I know I will be ok either way this sitch turns out, but I really want to grow regardless of outcome!

What would that look like to you ?

What do you need, to feel that from another person ?

What would you need, to do to GIVE that to another person?

What does communication look like to a man ?

What does communication look like from a Woman's perspective ?

We've had some phone calls, texts and Spent one hour together(w/S2). Face to face things are good, but often when she calls she is angry.
One of her complaints(180) has been that I don't listen enough. On the phone she got really angry and said I didn't listen. I replied to what she said so obviously I was.
Don't get me wrong I have always been a bad listener, which I am working on, but this was more like negative enforcment from her side("see why I left you?!)

She talked about quitting jobs and going on social security checks. (She used to hate healthy people doing that.) She changed it to quitting jobs to go to school again. I replied that it's far better than giving up and sitting back, and that she would get an opportunity to get proper education. IDK, I just feel I come off as patronizing. And I have been in the R as well. Shared little economy, bought an appartment for us w/o her, didn't act on many complaints she had, so forth.

I guess I need some tools for this.
She complained about phone/computer/gaming as well, and I've kept those to an absolute minimum as long as S is around. The problem is however communication/interaction skills.
I'm in the process of findng a C/therapist. Most have long waiting lists. Any suggestions to male vs female? One issue I believe is my R to my mother over the years.

I don't think that listening means the same thing to a Man and a Woman.

I think Men tend to listen in one way, and Women in another. I think that you should interpret the above questions to really understand what she is looking for.

There is a huge difference between being heard, and being listened to....especially to a Woman...

Simply repeating words back to a Woman, does not mean that you listened to them.

It means that you simply understood the language that they were speaking.

Feeling the emotion, the subtleties in which it was meant, finding the value in their thoughts, validating their words, feeding the conversation with acknowledgement that you are present, and being available to "just be" for them. Asking them if they want your opinion afterward, or are they just looking to vent. Taking the time to appreciate that their feelings are worth YOUR time. Your body language telling them, without a word spoken, that you value their time. Making sure that they know, without a doubt, that you HEARD them.....seeking to understand them, before you have the need to be understood...



That is what you should want...

Do you give that ???

Better yet, have you ever given that ????

[theUF]

One of her complaints(180) has been that I don't listen enough. On the phone she got really angry and said I didn't listen.

Listening does not mean just hearing her words and responding.
What she probably means is she wants you to understand her feelings. She wants to feel validated.

This is valid, and true. I'm not disregarding it, but for now lets leave it out so I can be more specific about my quote at the top.

S hasn't been eating well the last days so the phone convo was actually her stating "Today S ate x,y and z" I responded "oh so he got some food in then, that's sweet!" she replied "I just told you he did! You never listen!"
That's why I figured it was just her enforcing her believes of me never listening.

Anyway to clarify her complaint;
It's not so much the listening part as the taking it in

Ie she will tell me about her schedule or plans.
I listen and respond. But only on a superficial level. I don't take it in.
So at some point I ask or say something which shows I forgot or never fully took in what she said.
Of course I don't do this all the time but way too often. With her and others. IDK why, and it's not something I'm proud of, but it's the truth. And it's one of the things I'm trying to work on.

Problem is, most of us have no idea how to do this! DR touches on it and RetroV is almost exclusively about training couples to do it, but basically when she's telling you something ask her how she feels about it. Happy? Angry? Sad? Ambivalent? Then talk to her about how intense that feeling is- strong/ middle/ weak. The idea isn't to fix her problems, it's just to find out how she feels, and validate her emotions.

So back to what you said about listening, feelings and validation.
Yes, it's something I need to work on. RetroV would be awesome, but no option at this point. Some solo-training of some kind would be best option.

I have not been good at validating. If she told me something that bothered her, my mind would go straight to solution mode.
"OK so how can that change, what needs to be done? Can it be changed? etc"
I dropped the ball on the part of being loving H who would listen, understand and validate her feelings.

[Soul.Searching]

It is hard UF but it can be done. That being said I'm not that good at it either, it's a work in progress. I'm more of either just a listener or just saying things like "it will all work out somehow, it always does. I usually tend to give options but let them know its their choice. Just validating and nothing's else doesn't come easy to me.
I'm aware of it now though and usually think about it after the fact.
That has to be one step closer than I was, right? Next step is to try to put it in to place and actually use it.
It's a great goal for you to work on.

[AnotherStander]

S hasn't been eating well the last days so the phone convo was actually her stating "Today S ate x,y and z" I responded "oh so he got some food in then, that's sweet!" she replied "I just told you he did! You never listen!"
That's why I figured it was just her enforcing her believes of me never listening.

I can see what you mean there, BUT, the proper response would have been "I hear you saying I never listen, can you tell me more about that?" "Well yeah, it's like I'm talking to a wall! You never HEAR what I''m saying!" "Oh, well it sounds like that makes you angry, is that how you feel?" "No, not angry, but very frustrated!!" "Yeah, I can see that, you do sound very frustrated. How frustrated are you, how would it rank on a scale of one to 10?" "It's a 10 for sure!" "Wow, well obviously you do feel very frustrated. I can see why you feel that way. I'm sorry you feel like that. It is something that I'm going to work on."

The point being, the actual topic of the conversation didn't matter at all. What mattered is her FEELINGS and you did nothing to validate her feelings. In fact you ignored them. Not intentionally, but that's how she is perceiving it. In her mind you don't care about how she feels, because you're not saying/ asking the right things.

[theUF]

Feeling the emotion, the subtleties in which it was meant, finding the value in their thoughts, validating their words, feeding the conversation with acknowledgement that you are present, and being available to "just be" for them. Asking them if they want your opinion afterward, or are they just looking to vent. Taking the time to appreciate that their feelings are worth YOUR time. Your body language telling them, without a word spoken, that you value their time. Making sure that they know, without a doubt, that you HEARD them.....seeking to understand them, before you have the need to be understood...

That is what you should want...
Do you give that ???
Better yet, have you ever given that ????

Thanks Mach1, I've read a lot of your posts on other threads and I like your straight-forwardness.

You describe a lot of the stuff I need to work on/are working on. Eye contact, body language, taking my time to just listen are some of the things I haven't been good at.
I've written down your Q's in my notepad so I can review, thanks!

I'm aware of it now though and usually think about it after the fact.

Join the club Sounds like we are in a similar place. I was a bit frustrated about the hindsight tendency, but at least it shows we put some thought and effort in it. With time and work hopefully it will come a lot more naturally.

The point being, the actual topic of the conversation didn't matter at all. What mattered is her FEELINGS and you did nothing to validate her feelings. In fact you ignored them. Not intentionally, but that's how she is perceiving it. In her mind you don't care about how she feels, because you're not saying/ asking the right things.

I did ignore her feelings, I just didn't see it that way.
I guess I just figured she was bashing and I just brushed it of as not important.

"I hear you saying I never listen, can you tell me more about that?" "Well yeah, it's like I'm talking to a wall! You never HEAR what I''m saying!" "Oh, well it sounds like that makes you angry, is that how you feel?" "No, not angry, but very frustrated!!" "Yeah, I can see that, you do sound very frustrated. How frustrated are you, how would it rank on a scale of one to 10?" "It's a 10 for sure!" "Wow, well obviously you do feel very frustrated. I can see why you feel that way. I'm sorry you feel like that. It is something that I'm going to work on."

This is definitely more along the lines of how I would like to see (our) communication.
In the time after BD I applied this a lot, but it just made her more upset. She told me to please stop acting like her d@mned therapist.
Maybe that's normal, maybe I swung the pendulum too far in too short time and just needed to be more consistent? Thoughts?

[25yearsmlc]

UF

You asked me to stop by your thread w/any input. Though I read most of your whole thread, it's probably best I just use this one for now...

I've had a feeling the last couple of days which got even stronger after reading 25's recent reply to Big Bruce. She really is of great value to this board.
Even though directed at BB it gave me some good insight to my own sitch as well.

Thanks^^^.

I stood my ground on my hobbies and said beforehand I wouldn't give them up. She said she understood. Still, that didn't give me a free pass. I should have taken it down a notch, and been more available/present.

I'm a mother of 3, and 1 of 9 kids. So that's MY perspective, plus I'm a L so I also have a career. I can tell you that it was MY career which changed for our children, NOT h's. And yes, I resented that. But that was long ago.

When I see a man telling a woman (especially a woman you never deemed worthy of marrying? What was that all about? I cannot fathom not being ready to marry BUT being ready to have a child...just an aside...)...

anyhow, telling her you were "going to have my hobbies and NOT give them up" or as you said "Stood my ground" ....really? This decision to have a child was a POWER play?

I think when you have a child...(Hey, you wanted my opinion---remember?)

but you assert that despite wanting a child, nothing else is to change FOR YOU...(b/c hobbies are SO important?? No wonder she felt under valued...)

Okay, TO ME, that just sounds silly and, well, sort of selfish.

Of course you should meet the needs of the child you & she brought into the world, and the "marital" relationship FIRST... OR your "marital" relationship will suffer. Plain and simple.

HER world got turned upside down and she gets to see you go off as if nothing else changed for you. Her body got pregnant, HER body changed dramatically and then gave birth and then did all the child care & had all the sleep deprivation, and hormonal swings,

but hey, you "stood your ground" for those hobbies, and you sound, even now, proud of that. Are you?

Having a baby rocks your world. It turned my career plans upside down and I"m OKAY with that!

Things are NOT the same and anyone who insists on having all their social and hobby needs met WHILE parenting, is dropping the ball as a parent and a partner, IMO.


The feeling I have is that I'm struggling. Key word : communication.
My intentions are in the right place, yet I struggle to get in the mindset I need to communicate better. I know I will be ok either way this sitch turns out, but I really want to grow regardless of outcome!

We've had some phone calls, texts and Spent one hour together(w/S2). Face to face things are good, but often when she calls she is angry.
One of her complaints(180) has been that I don't listen enough. On the phone she got really angry and said I didn't listen. I replied to what she said so obviously I was.

Listening to me, = taking the information IN and processing it. That CAN mean you change your mind about something.

It always means you realize it's HER information and HER view...merely repeating it or merely replying, shows you HEARD it, which does not mean you "get it", or as she said, That you "listened".

Make sense? Maybe it's semantics and I'm guessing here, at what SHE means.


Don't get me wrong I have always been a bad listener, which I am working on, but this was more like negative enforcment from her side("see why I left you?!)


what do YOU mean when you say you've "always been a bad listener"? That's not a small trait to work on my friend. Work on it....

you can take communication classes that work on this. Or attend a personal growth workshop called 'Essential Experience" (check their website) which works a ton on HOW to listen better (and a ton of individual issues too. It usually helps R's a lot but keeps the focus only on the person attending, NOT the spouse).

I would not suggest you tell your "woman" what SHE needs to work on.
It's not your job. Just model your changes and let that be something SHE can notice and follow if & when she's willing.

As for the negative enforcment from her side, that makes sense. Don't let it bother you too much. IT can mean she's reasserting herself b/c she wants to remind herself of why she left, which MIGHT mean she is "wondering" how smart it was or if your changes make her arguments a moot point, and that's a good good thing.

AND OR she may be manipulating you w/that comment. But YOU decide if that works. Not her.

So who cares if that's her goal, if YOU don't let it manipulate you?

She talked about quitting jobs and going on social security checks. (She used to hate healthy people doing that.) She changed it to quitting jobs to go to school again. I replied that

and you gave her YOUR opinion on the "value" of her proposal. Don't. Just LISTEN to her and let her work things out so she sees that you are LISTENING and not judging or advising and NOT risking the whole patronizing appearance.


it's far better than giving up and sitting back, and that she would get an opportunity to get proper education. IDK, I just feel I come off as patronizing.

you could ask exploratory questions of her instead. "What would you study? If she doesn't know, ask her what she has eliminated. IF she does know, you can ask "Would that lead you to a job you'd find fulfilling?" ETC but don't mention money b/c she thinks that is your priority.


And I have been in the R as well. Shared little economy, bought an appartment for us w/o her, didn't act on many complaints she had, so forth.

you have been what? "Patronizing" IN the R too? And you "Shared little economy" means what? You say you bought an apartment without her? Do you mean the HOME you were to live in? IF SO, that's huge. She probably felt ignored and devalued then. Plus you stole a wonderful opportunity from her.

You two could have gone house hunting together. IT's a wonderful bonding experience you denied her. Why? IF it's a control thing, admit it. See how you robbed her AND YOU of a wonderful memory.

And whatever was "wrong" with the place probably got held against you since it was forced upon her. Make sense?



I guess I need some tools for this.

That's fine. We ALL need tools for this. Go to EE or some other workshop and or take a class. Get some counselling. Do what you have to do. There are so many resources around for this, it's insane not to get the tools you need for a healthy loving R.

She complained about phone/computer/gaming as well, and I've kept those to an absolute minimum as long as S is around. The problem is however communication/interaction skills.

Those ^^ things tend to show lack of interest in the "family" unit and will make a woman feel lonely, and disrespected.

Do you see why that would be?

I'm in the process of findng a C/therapist. Most have long waiting lists. Any suggestions to male vs female? One issue I believe is my R to my mother over the years.

Some workshops (EE included) help with parental r's that still affect us. IF that applies, look into it.

I GUESS a female T might be better if you have mom issues. Not all MC's are bad despite what many say here. Many are bad b/c they end up rehashing the past so much that the couples get more angry and end up divorcing and that "proves" to the mc, that they were "going to divorce" which just fuels their approach more.

So look for a "solution based" T if you can find one. That means, to me, that within half a dozen sessions, you ought to be behaving in new ways...or you need another T. At least that's my opinion.

Been sick on/off since December so GAL has been limited, but have had several get-togethers with people I don't usually hang out with. 180 for me.
Have plans for GAL as soon as I get well. Soul.Searching got me on the idea of water park/aquarium with S, bit of a travel but absolutely worth it.

The aquarium sounds fun with S, but it's NOT GAL in my book. What are YOU doing to GAL?

For a guy who "stood his ground" for hobbies, why not pursue those when you can, which is when you are NOT with your son?

IF I were you, I'd spend ALL my "son" time with him NOT doing the hobbies.

what are you referring to here? If it's typical "what do I do alone?" GAL then I suggest you volunteer for something, or take a class, or JOIN an organization or group.

I took classes in French, Italian cooking, I joined a writer's group, I auditioned for community theater and did stand up comedy, I learned to ski, hunt and fish.

I took flying lessons, went skydiving, and volunteered at a woman's shelter. I even took a pottery class (huge 180 for me.)

Except for the flying/skydiving, everything else was cheap or free.

You can GAL more and we hammer it here b/c it really does help with detaching and having a good upbeat attitude with your WAS.

I think she's given you several hints about wanting to see if things could be better with you. Remember that

she will only come home to reconcile IF & ONLY IF

she believes, marriage to you can be better/different than before.

Your job is showing her that it could be.

IF you want that, and if it comes up, you might want to start with actually proposing...but that's a long way off for now.

I Just want to suggest it to you b/c a lot of women feel, down deep, that without a ring on their finger -- they are being used.

Since you stated you were "willing" to have a child BUT wanted nothing else to change in your life, I can see how she'd have felt devalued and taken for granted and since you didn't seem to discuss marriage much,

why wouldn't she see the attention of OM as an appealing thing?

Food for thought.

[bob77]

I agree with another stander. Emphathy goes a long way. When you respond, try and use the words 'I understand'. These words will be picked up in your spouse's sub-conscious, and she will automatically assume you 'get it'. When you 'get it', your spouse will not only assume you're listening, but will also feel that you're on their side. You are supporting their pride, and that's one of the ways to get back in their wheelhouse.

[ThisDayForward]

25 can you hop back on my thread. I have questions as positives happen