When tapestries of life get tangled in the loom.

[MrBond]

That was an incredibly rude post against those who have tried to help you since the beginning.

"It's not that I don't listen to what you say but I speak with other people too, and what they say is literally the opposite of what you guys say to me.
Contradictory messages. I try to tell them I was the vilain, but then my friends prove to me that I really was not."

Really? Have they been through what we all have? Have they studied relationship dynamics as much as we have? Besides they only have YOUR side of the story and haven't seen anything from your W's point of view. You just listen to them more because they stroke your ego. We don't tell you what you Want to hear. We tell you what you NEED to hear.

In the end do you want to save your M or not? Continue to listen to your friends and you and your son will have no M in the end.

"In fact, I think that yes I carry most of the responsibility, but her reaction for 7 months now is as bad if not worse as my previous behaviour."

BS. That's from your side of things again. You refuse to see things through her eyes which is why you're failing.

"I loved life. Now I don't love life anymore, nothing is left."

No. YOu loved life when YOU were in control of everything and got what you wanted. Guess what? A M is based on the needs of two people not one.

"And one day, after we had our own place, W kicked them out of our house (!)"

There must have been something that happened. Rather than chastising her, did you ever get to the root of why she did that?

Go back and read 25's message to you. YOu still have a long way to grow up.

[25yearsmlc]

One thing I overlooked was about your Marriage vows...your "DEAL" and its unheard of terms.

YOU SAID:

The promise was that no matter what , we would stick together. I mean no matter what. Through sickness, cheating, poverty, ML crisis, baldness, extra pounds, prison, name it. That was the promise. Well, I'm sorry, the other party lied to me. I may have been negligent, been a jerk and what not, but the deal was that we'd stick together until death did us part.

Really? B/C Those are some unique vows.

I guess our vows were more "traditionally American". I said that

"I take you, to be my lawfully wedded h, from this day forward, to have and to hold, forsaking all others, for richer, for poorer, in sickness & in health, to love and honor you, til death do us part."

So is there a new version of vows you took there? Can you repeat them here?

Do they say "I promise to stay married to you no matter what. Through sickness, cheating, poverty, ML crisis, baldness, extra pounds, prison, name it...become a negligent jerk...?

aside from how the "cheating" part contradicts the forsaking all others, the "negligent jerk" contradicts the "love & honor" part of the vow. So who lied? Who broke their vows?

Your version seems to come from the MIddle Ages. Your vows mean "stay with me and I have a carte blanche on behavior. I can do ANYTHING I WANT, OR NOTHING and no matter how cruel or neglectful or dishonest or even violent, and you MUST stay with me..."

Did she KNOW and VOW to this^^^???? Your vows are appalling.

Are You saying you'd have stayed with her if she went bald, gained 100 lbs, went to prison, was nasty and cold to you, ignored the baby and you, and gambled away your savings and borrowed money on the house, too???

(For the record, I doubt I'd stay with my h if he did all those things. I have kids to protect.)
HER VIEWS MATTER.....SHE believes you were wasteful & selfish with money. SHE believes you ignored HER AND your son. SHE believes you were not going to help her raise your son.

SHE believes that^^^ and so, your job is to show her that you are a changed man. You do not seem to get this. Your persistent justifications show that you do NOT truly believe you erred in any significant way. Certainly you think you are "entitled" to another chance, as if you were given no warning. But that is not true Bruce. I don't believe a woman leaves her h and marriage, with their infant son, for minor things. And she did warn you. She told you before the baby AND after, that she was not happy and she did not believe you two were similar enough in your views on family life and finances, to make it.

She had a few years to believe that you were not the right guy for her b/c Before the baby was born, She was NOT happy with you, or the marriage or her life. Naturally, you fault HER for this, and try to make her sound mentally imbalanced.

Bruce, You have no idea how often we see that rationalization from men here. It's almost always a lie they tell themselves to justify THEIR BAD BEHAVIOR. They cannot face themselves so they point at the one rejecting them, and say "it's HER, not me! She's crazy! She's WRONG! I'm right! I'm the victim. My mistakes IF ANY, were small and minor..."

Bruce, you think your words are unique here? We see it all the time. Those are words of a LBS who isn't going to save his marriage.


From what you told us, your solution to "help" her when she felt sad/neglected, was that you wanted to have a baby AND continue in your hobbies...can't you see how that "solution" required NO change on your end? Sure, it turns HER world upside down...but hey, so what? I mentioned this before, but got no reply from you on it. Why is that?

HERE, We know that we have all, in some way failed a marriage vow. For instance, I have not always honored my h b/c I have undermined him at times. I have lashed out at him, for one thing. I have criticized him in front of our children, too.

I was not always welcoming him home when he came home late, b/c I resented his long work hours. I needed & wanted him home sooner. His reasons for late work were sometimes more about his ego and misplaced priorities.

Had I been smarter, or gotten into DBing sooner, I might have realized that even if I were "right" (and I sure thought I was, for years).... my closed arms approach when he got home, did NOT make him come home earlier. My approach was not working. That alone should have awakened me to the reality I had to change my approach.

I needed to give him a warm welcome, so he'd miss our homelife and want it more, but I thought that was "rewarding" his bad behavior. I was stupid and stubborn. I saw myself as a victim.

And now, I see that even when his priorities were not the best, even when I was "right", MY approach worsened things for both of us. And that's wrong of me.

Do what helps your relationship, do not do what does not help.


It does NOT HELP YOU or the cause of saving your m, to keep seeing yourself as the "right" guy, or the victim. Even if you were, and imo you were not, it does not help you to do that!

I've been HERE, posting to you, a lot. I've heard the whole story YOU gave us (if it is the whole story) and the things you barely mention or admit, are the shocking parts.

To this day, I don't see how you can argue that she did not have good reasons to leave you. You admitted to us (not to your friends, I'm sure) that you did nothing for your son and nothing for HER.

I bet you tell them "she was OBSESSED by the child and IGNORED ME"...b/c that's what you posted here the other day.

Bruce, that twisted version of yours is keeping you stuck in a lie. Even if you think there's a thread of truth to it, i.e., that she doted on your son or possessed him too much, I see it as HER REACTION to YOUR UNinvolvement, which is supported by your behavior afterwards...

The fact is, you still ignored her and the infant. Period.

Why didn't you INSIST on taking care of him and giving HER A BREAK?! At least feed him some pumped breast milk. How many times did you earnestly offer?

At least Change his diaper when he cries...

I've asked you this so many times, but you keep blaming HER for what you did not do. I see through it Bruce. So do all the women here posting to you. We're mothers Bruce...and the dads here, they post to you and THEY tell you "Bruce, you did not do enough."

I don't believe you tried hard or sincerely. I have to wonder if you EVER offered to change his diaper (before we all implored you to, in the last month). Seriously. Do you tell your "friends" that part?

And where are these "friends"? You said you don't have any. Are they all back in France, so they have no idea how little you are involved even now?

Crimson had never changed a diaper. I told him at the time I didn't know another man who had not done that for his child by that age. Now I know two; you & him. Look at how HE responded.

The first time our son needed a diaper change, was in the hospital, & my h and I did it together so WE could learn how. I recall my MIL laughing b/c we used, I believe, maybe 22 wipes.

Did you TRULY read & TAKE IN what I wrote to you earlier, about what it's like to be a mother for the first time?

You never commented on it, but I felt moved to tears just writing it.

And I still feel grateful to my h b/c despite all the rough times we had a few years back, & they were very hard, I'll never forget how great he was at/after the birth of our first child. It's a gift he gave me that I cherish even now, 20+ years later.

As a new mother, in law school at the time, my whole career plan was turned upside down by our unplanned pregnancy. I felt so much pressure and self doubt and FEAR about motherhood, & the loss or delay of my career, and how this was ending my life as I knew it.

So much fear I'd make a mistake as a mother...and the physical part amazed me too. It was SO demanding to give birth. I had no idea. You don't either, evidently.

I recall saying at the time, that I could NOT believe
"God would give me the single most demanding physical ordeal of my life, AND by far the most painful, AND make my hormones swing/change the same amount they changed during puberty--but over just a few days time, AND have parts of my body hurt that never hurt before,

AND GIVE ME A TOTALLY DEPENDENT PERSON TO CARE FOR, 24/7,all at the same time!"

YES---I told you all this & more, before. You said nothing in response.

Did you feel any sympathy for your wife when you read it, or did you avoid that?

OR did you think, instead, of how long it took her to want to ml to you? You once said "She always had time for the boy, but not for me". Your "boy" was an infant, and literally depended solely on HER for his very life. You're an adult male. You can feed & bathe yourself and use a toilet. You can speak if something is hurting you. Your infant son can only cry to have his physical needs met.

I know it's a long time for some men/women to wait to return to their former sex life, but it's NORMAL not to have sex for several weeks. It's what happens when a woman's body has been through something big, like childbirth.

In some parts of the world childbirth is still the leading cause of female mortality. My grandmother AND aunt died in childbirth. I can now see why. Months later, things are still not the same yet.

Your wife was still going through a lot physically and hormonally AND if she was nursing, as she was, she was not feeling the same urges as before. This is a physical reality. You resented that fact.

Bruce, I honestly cringe to imagine what it must have been like for HER...I almost cry for her. To be a new mom, in your country (you NOW say your family has been "great" to her but earlier you admitted they were not fond of her. I'm sure she knew it, that they were "not close", and living in their home that long was not necessarily a good thing FOR HER. I'd go nuts in my inlaws home, and I'd want my h to provide a home of our own.)

Newborns take up the most energy I can imagine. I never knew sleep deprivation like that until my father was on his death bed. But that only lasted a few days, not the year it takes for an infant to get a sleep routine and ebven later, it's interrupted many times weekly.

You keep ignoring ALL this^^^^.....to talk about how she neglected YOU. How SHE "sulked" or was "in a bad humor", at which time you left her alone...

Bruce how do you NOW feel that reaction of yours was, to her depression?
Was it keeping your vows to love & honor her?

Do you see any reason situationally, that she might have felt sad over there?

Since the birth of your first child is such an impressionable time, and can be a beautiful experience, your behavior might be seen by her, as being unforgivable. I try to believe that "all things are forgivable, under certain circumstances." NOT b/c of those vows though.

But your remorse, such as it is, isn't something I detect or feel. Yes, you feel badly that she left you. But it's not remorse so much as it's bitter resentment and indignation on your end.

In your view, your vows let YOU get away w/anything. In your view you are entitled to her returning to you.

Crimson had never changed a diaper or read his son a story before his wife left him. Like you, it took his wife leaving, to awaken him. Now he is a great father...and he did it, FOR THE SAKE OF BEING A GREAT FATHER...

Now, he is "awake".

You are still fast asleep. I urge you, please Bruce, WAKE UP!

[tori2012]

Bruce, about the email Q, nothing wrong with being nice and polite. Wouldn't you do that for a friend? End with "have a good rest of the day," or "have a good week," or whatever. It's good for the R overall and it has nothing to do with the LRT. Hope this helps.

[theUF]

That was a golden post by 25!! Read it BB, again and again.
I agree with tori on endings. I often put those in as well, even though I often get none in return. No expectations right?

25: your post gave me some 2x4's, even if unintentional. I made an update on my thread , by all means stop by if you wish.

[Big Bruce]

Hello all,
It took me some time to reflect upon these last messages.

I finally took a trip to Phoenix, AZ.
Needed to get away from the cold and snow here (-20F today).

I know that things will improve now.

I'll feed some details tomorrow.

Cheers,
Bruce.

[Big Bruce]

So anywayz,
I was refering to the unspoken deal we make at marriage, about being there for each other, in good or bad. At the first difficulty, it got shattered like as if we were just seeing each other, there's a child now, I mean... Yes I recognize it was hard for her, but like divorcing was gonna help.

And by the way, we didn't say any vows at all. For me, my yes is yes, I needn't promise things to make sure I'll stick to the marriage.

But 25SMIC is right in one thing : W believes I was wasteful & selfish with money. SHE believes I ignored HER AND our son. SHE believes I was not going to help her raise my son.
--> THEREFORE my mission is simple : break those assumptions by being all the contrary.

- For one I'm in court proceeding because I want more time with my son. This shows I want to take care of him.
I understand it must have been difficult becoming a mother for the first time . Now that it is the past, the only thing to do is try to be a good dad.

- Second, all the letters and change of attitude towards W should prove to her that I won't take her for granted anymore.

- Third, money wise, if she had concerns, after what's happening, she must know that I am more than willing to be open about it. Plus I have shown lots of restrain and thriftiness since I arrived. She can't still think I can be extravagant about it.
Should I get a mortgage and buy a house? Seriously, that'll show her my priority is to get settled and be a family man.

The reason why I believe things can only go better now, is because when I don't write her an email I don't feel the urge to. I don't feel the need to convince her anymore. I'm a changed person, and if she decides not to give me another chance, loss is hers. She's fallen her pedestal, I see her as a girl who truly thought marriage was going to be with romantic prince all her life, and three years in the marriage realizes that reality has kicked in.
The husband is not perfect, sorry, the husband $uckz, and the grass looks greener being divorced.

I feel sympathetic. She doesn't know what she wants in life. She was unsatisfied, still is unhappy, and I cannot be responsible for making her happy. Too heavy for me to carry.

All I can do now, is promise to myself to not let her down a second time if I'm given the chance. She is still in time to make that choice, my door is still open, it will stay always open in fact. I will focus on my son, that's a challenge in itself. I said what I could, I did what I could, Her call now..

Good evening,
B.

[MrBond]

I don't know how you can't see that your post was still bumping up your own ego while tearing down your W.

[25yearsmlc]

what they^^^ said. Your ego prevents you from "hearing" us. That's obvious.

For some reason I thought you truly had taken time to take in the words I wrote. I knew they'd be hard to take in but you took your time...

only to come back with essentially the same defensive posture saying "I'm more RIGHT, than my wife is." I think you're blind.

But I wish you luck, Bruce.

[lionhrt]

Bruce are you serious about working on you or is this all about you winning and proving how wrong and misguided your W is for leaving you?

[Big Bruce]

Guys,
I agree I have been a terrible husband, if not I wouldn't be here.
I am responsible for the breakdown of our marriage, and I worsened things pursuing trying to reconcile even.
Surely I have pondered and learnt during this ordeal.
But then what? I mean, what am I supposed to do at this pojnt. Wish her best of luck?

Tell her I'm ok with D (and therefore validating her probable idea of looking for another person?)
Should I move on and begin looking for another girl?

Yes, I regognized I messed it all up, it's not secret I'm in shambles, I cry every night, there, I'm not ashamed to say it, I'm a wreck, but practically, in the facts, I don't even know what to do, where to start, what to think, what to feel.

Bruce.