New Club Member Here!

[Pathfinder2]

I’ve been reading these forum posts for a few months now and have decided to make myself and my situation known in the hopes that I can get some well thought out input and advice as how to best work to save our marriage. Here's my situation.

Quick synopsis:

W is from overseas. About 3 years ago, she met some friends from her homeland and as the years have gone on, the group of friends has been growing. As she has become closer with her friends, they have begun coming with us on summer camping weekends. Instead of it being a time for our family as it used to be, it has slowly become more about the friends. These friends seem to be nice people, but they also like to drink a lot. Last camping trip resulted in warnings from park rangers on two consecutive nights that we would all be asked to leave if we didn’t quiet down. We have children who are in the middle of all of this as well. I don’t feel comfortable with all the drinking and cursing that our kids get to witness. It’s not a family vacation anymore. Voiced this to W and was told I was critical and not accepting.

W’s girlfriends started getting together at clubs for drinks. It started out as nights out with them only and W would return at 1am or so. Then it turned into 3am. Then it turned into staying over at a friend’s place. Once she came home drunk at 630am. Often the girls would bring spouses/fiancees/boyfriends. I never went because I am not a party boy and I was watching our kids.

One person that likes to go out with the friends is a single guy. No girlfriend with him that I have ever seen. He’s been on the camping trips too. Don’t know him well at all.

Long story short... I started becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the time that he spent with W. He has a kid same age/gender as ours. Play dates and sleepovers for the kids would happen. Instead of dropping them off and leaving, they hang out and talk for a couple/few hours or so. I am NEVER around when this happens. I have NEVER dropped off/picked up kids at all. It ALL happens when I am out of town on business.

I had started feeling disconnected from W this summer. Like we were beginning to travel different paths. I told my W that I thought she was unhappy this summer. In doing so, I think I started a brush fire. Pushed her to see a marriage counselor with me. Told her I didn’t feel comfortable about this guy. Dug into email and phone records. Pushed and talked more. Talked to family. Talked to friends. In short EVERYTHING I should not have done.

Fast forward.

W now says ILYBNILWY. Told me she feels trapped. If we didn’t have kids, would ask for a separation. Our marriage has ALWAYS been a bad one. Feels nothing inside for me. Doesn’t see a fix. Has been to counseling with me but no help. Parties more than ever before. Gets drunk when partying. Spends lots of money on new wardrobe. Wants to hang with a younger crowd...

I’ve seen a counselor since August working on jealousy issues. Doing MUCH better. I read DR. Been giving space as much as I know how. She doesn’t tell me what she’s doing or where she’s been except on rare occcasions. She texts but usually just logistics. Will call rarely. Will email. When I’m out of town, for up to two weeks at a time, I hardly hear from her. We DO speak at home. Been in separate BR since November.

She accuses me of violating her trust by digging. Will ask me where I have been when I’m being mysterious. I can’t pose the same question to her. Gets uptight even if I say “Hey! What have you been up to/doing?”

Obviously, I’m trying to do what I can to pull us back together.

Seems to me like I’ve got a MLC on my hands. Trying to avoid having a WAW too.

There HAVE been glimpses of hope, but I’m really struggling here. What I am hoping to do is STOP talking to ANYONE except you guys. I need people to talk to about this, but I can’t talk to friends or family. W says it puts more distance between us cause she feels I am rigging a jury.

Can you guys help me out here? Thanks.

As time runs along, I'll post more to fill in blanks and bring you up to date on my latest experiences. There is NO WAY I can do this in one post.

[Pathfinder2]

Currently, I am out of town again on a trip. I left on Thursday. It is now Monday and I have heard from my wife a total of three times. The first time, she texted me about our youngest daughter's birthdate in my calendar being incorrect. She did add to it. That was nice to see. I jokingly let her know that I actually DO know our daughter's birthday, I wanted to get a "head start" on it. (My daughter had wanted her birthday coded in my calendar with her favorite color. When I did that, the date must have gotten changed.) That was Thursday.

The next was a phone call. Logistics stuff only. Got a kind of soft "bye" on the end. The kind of way she used to talk to me when she would tell me she loved me. I always took it as a signal of an open door to comm with her again. That's stuff entirely in my head and she has never told me that this is what she means by it, so it may mean nothing at all. That was again on Thursday.

Last comm was an email that I received on Sunday. It had no greeting or signature. Only a body. One sentence pertaining to a request for receipts. Other than that... nothing.

Our kids spent Saturday night at the guy's place with his daughter. W went out with girlfriends again. W had told me they would be going out for a birthday. Haven't heard anything after that about it. I won't ask and she probably won't volunteer. As I mentioned earlier, these outings have a tendency to happen at dance clubs and I think dance clubs are a recipe for disaster for a marriage. We had a MAJOR setback at a club together last week.

I'll get home on Tuesday morning. Wife is scheduled to leave town the next day to see relatives for a week. That will make it two weeks apart.

W had complained before that I always wanted to talk too much on the phone. That I would get upset when she didn't want to talk. A 180 I am doing is NOT calling her. It is a struggle for me, but I have answered her call and responded to her text and email and that is it. This is the first time I have done that. It will be five days with no comm from me except to respond to her pinging me.

[InAPickle]

Bump ^

[Pathfinder2]

Thanks for the bump, IAP.

Came home from my trip. Kissed my wife in greeting. Didn't turn her cheek to me like she has in the past, but didn't return my kiss either. Our youngest was there though and that probably factored in. just this past year, we used to be very affectionate to each other. it was kind of a game that when they would see us kissing, the kids would try to separate us.

No feelings of warmth from her the whole day. Pretty cold to me actually. I feel like we are friends who aren't even close enough to confide in one another.

I did find via the grapevine that she was sick this weekend.

I drop her off at the airport today. I asked if she would like to do lunch before and got a negative reply. She wants to sleep in. That will set her up with a late breakfast, so she won't be interested in lunch.

This will be the first time she has left town on her own since we had our kids. They are accustomed to me being gone quite a bit. They are going to miss her. She will call, but I'm pretty sure it will be to check up on them only.

This disconnect between us has been running now for about 6 months. I just don't see it going on like this forever. Trying to keep my chin up, keep a PMA and GAL. It's difficult. My life has been my wife and our kids. I'm reading The Power of Positive Thinking by Dr.Norman Vincent Peale. Lots of good advice. It really helps me keep my spirits up.

[AnotherStander]

W now says ILYBNILWY. Told me she feels trapped. If we didn’t have kids, would ask for a separation. Our marriage has ALWAYS been a bad one. Feels nothing inside for me. Doesn’t see a fix. Has been to counseling with me but no help.

Typical WAS talk. Don't take it too personally. That's the way she feels now, but it could change later.

I’ve seen a counselor since August working on jealousy issues. Doing MUCH better. I read DR. Been giving space as much as I know how.

OK, good. How about your 180's, what faults have you had in your R and M and what are you doing differently?

She accuses me of violating her trust by digging.

But you admit that you HAVE been digging. Has it stopped?

Obviously, I’m trying to do what I can to pull us back together.

That's not what DB'ing is about, it's about working on you, making yourself the H only a fool would leave and giving her time and space to work things through. The more you try to pull her the more she will resist and pull away.

Seems to me like I’ve got a MLC on my hands. Trying to avoid having a WAW too.

She already is a WAW. She may be there physically, but mentally she already checked out.

I need people to talk to about this, but I can’t talk to friends or family. W says it puts more distance between us cause she feels I am rigging a jury.

Yes, that is exactly how the WAS perceives it when the LBS starts talking to friends and family.

The next was a phone call. Logistics stuff only. Got a kind of soft "bye" on the end. The kind of way she used to talk to me when she would tell me she loved me. I always took it as a signal of an open door to comm with her again.

Don't overanalyze every word she says and how she says it. I know you want to see progress wherever you can, but you've got to accept that it's just not there. You're not going to see progress for months. Be patient. Believe me, if she wanted to open that door again you would know it. She'll make it clear, it won't be just the way she says "bye".

As I mentioned earlier, these outings have a tendency to happen at dance clubs and I think dance clubs are a recipe for disaster for a marriage. We had a MAJOR setback at a club together last week.

How was the club the trigger for this? Please explain, sounds like there might be something in this story that would help explain the dynamics of your M.

A 180 I am doing is NOT calling her. It is a struggle for me, but I have answered her call and responded to her text and email and that is it.

Believe me, this was tough for me too. I would sit there waiting for W to send me an email or text. But when she did (and it was rare) it was always something disappointing- kid logistics mostly. You've got to let it go. Quit contacting her and quit expecting her to contact you.

Came home from my trip. Kissed my wife in greeting. Didn't turn her cheek to me like she has in the past, but didn't return my kiss either.

Stop the kissing, clearly she doesn't want that. It's pressure and pursuit. No hugs either. Let her initiate all physical contact.

This disconnect between us has been running now for about 6 months. I just don't see it going on like this forever.

Sounds like what you've been doing isn't working. Time to change the dynamics. Try something different and monitor the results. Read Sandi's DB tips (sticky at top of forum) and LIVE them. Read DR, work out your 180's and baby steps. Settle in for a long haul!

[Pathfinder2]

For the past 6 months, I have been going over things that I have done to drive my wife to this point in our marriage. Of course, she does a pretty good job of pointing out my shortcomings. It doesn't take long to see a grocery list of things that I could change. I have been making changes to many of them, but I am not perfect and will backslide at times.

Some of the stuff I have been accused of:

Steamrolling my way in every major purchase decision we make. When we were looking to purchase our first home, I insisted that we have a stand alone property. My wife was looking at condos, but I was not open to that. We could not afford a single family home, so we opted for a mutil family and lived in one unit, saving money for the purchase of our present home. We are upside down in the rental because of the real estate bust. My wife is very bitter that we are invested in that property. It is a lot of work (she handles leases and I handle maintenance), and it just breaks even. She wishes she had never seen the place. The home we are in now is nice. We looked at many. She found it, but I didn't like it from photos. When I saw it in person, I liked it a lot. My memory says she was very excited about it as well, but she has told me she just wanted it so we could stop looking.

I have champaign taste. I tend to spend more than I can get away with because I insist on high quality. Improvements to our home have been very expensive. They turn out very well, but my wife doesn't want to spend that much money. I push and she gives in. I could go on, but you get the idea.

I used to call my wife multiple times through the day because I was bored and wanted to talk. She was my best friend. My job can be quite lonely because you are never in the same location for long and the people you work with are constantly changing. It's difficult to get to know others well enough to have meaningful relationships with them. My wife would complain that she didn't want to talk. I would take it personally. I might no say anything about it, but she could tell i was upset. Of course everything this would happen it would make her not want to pick up the phone.

In my interactions with our children, I was often very disconnected. Our oldest child has been a challenge. One psychologist is thinking she may have been misdiagnosed ADHD when she may really be dealing with autism. In the beginning, I wouldn't listen to my wife about how to deal with the kids. I knew the right way of doing things and it was to kill ants with sledgehammers. Lots of fights over this. I was wrong and have admitted it and apologized, but the damage was done.

I could go on with more but won't the 180's I have done lately? I have stopped pressing for my way in every purchase decision we make. I often will ask my wife what she wants and I will validate her decision and go with it. I don't make any purchases without her input. We agree before the purchase. My wife is a spendthrift, so I have begun making sure I use all the discounts I can find before I buy ANYTHING.

I have a newfound relationship with our kids. This is partly because of our marriage problems, but mostly it's because of my IC sessions and me recognizing that I have always held myself and others up to too high a standard. I have really pulled a 180 here, and I know my wife can see it. She has mentioned it to the counsellor.

When on trips, I no longer call her every day. In fact, I hardly call her at all. I have been attempting to not go totally dark, but get very dim. At first this seemed to have a positive effect. Now it just seems to give her more time away from me which she has told me she likes. I was actually told by her that when I leave for work she breathes a sigh of relief.

Another 180 is not asking her what she's been doing or what she's been up to. She has gotten VERY reactive if I say anything even remotely reflecting that I am curious about her activities or or what she has done during her day. I feel that SH thinks I am big brother. That, of course would be attributed to jealousy. Jealousy leads us into dance clubs and I will save that for another post.

You are right. I DO read into communications. I look for any sign of life that I can because either there is none, or I don't recognize it when it is there. The kisses were my "act as if". Guess I don't understand. She DID tell me I could have kissed her goodbye.

Thanks for your open and frank input. I really don't know what I am doing. I'm considering calling up one of the DB coaches, but we run such tight and transparent books (a healthy thing, I feel) that it will be immediately evident to my wife that I am talking with them. I have not given her DR and have no intentions of doing so.

[Pathfinder2]

AS, I just started looking through your original posts from when you first signed on here with your crisis. The small amount of your writings that I have read seems very well thought out. Almost as though the whole situation really didn't seem much of a challenge to you.

I have a tendency to look for instant results, also tend to react quickly instead of respond slowly. I know what I want, so I look for ANYTHING to tell me that what I desire is on its way. These qualities will not serve me well in this situation, and although I know that, it is still a struggle for me. With my wife still living here, I find it challenging to disconnect. I have read that "Detatch" is to disconnect from the emotional roller coaster but without withdrawing. I am searching for ways to show that I am still here, but without pursuing. I liken it to trying to feed a bird from the palm of your hand. Any attempt to acquire them results in flight.

My wife has been out of town for almost a week now. She has contacted me several times since leaving. Mostly via text, but I did have a relatively lengthy phone call with her regarding her dad. I made sure not to push my perspective. I listened intently and gave her support and recognition for how well she has handled things. Her father suffers from depression and can be quite an emotional load on her. I have always stood beside her in how she deals with him.

Yesterday, she contacted me several times via text. One thing she shared was some pictures taken of her at a museum that I have always wanted to see. I asked her if she had seen everything there. She told me no, and that she figured she would save that for me and the kids. I felt that was good to hear, but reminded myself not to put a lot of weight on that statement. Today, I have not heard a word from her.

Her computer went into the shop the day she left town. I retrieved it for her and was going to set it up so that it would be ready for her when she returned. In the setup, I started having to enter passwords and stuff like that. You know, all the crap you have to enter when setting up from ground zero. I ended up telling her that I was going to leave it all for her. That I wanted her to be pleased with how it was set up. My intention is that she will have no doubt that I am not digging under the hood on her computer. Some people may say that I'm sticking my head in the sand, but I just can't see what good will come from me finding something that I, and our two daughters will not want to find. Part of me wants concrete evidence, but part of me beleives that if I ever found anything that would ensure the demise of our relationship and our family. I suffer from swings in my feelings on this subject.

AS, I feel we live in a parallel universe. in your posts, I hear myself. Been keeping the house in ship shape. Did laundry for the first time in about 12 years! Nothing turned into doll clothing! I have found an increasing workload coming down on me at home. In the past, my wife assumed most of the duties around the house. That was definitely a shortcoming on my part. It's a 180 for me to be SO involved in taking care of everything around here. It feels good, though, and it helps keep my mind off of the things that bother me. It also gives me a sense of well being and accomplishment.

On a good note, (baby step, maybe?) my wife asked if I would like to schedule a couples massage with her when she returns. We used to do that on a regular basis followed by lunch. I think I will wait to see if she wants to follow up with more later. Then maybe I can call it a baby step. Right now, we sleep in separate rooms. She won't let me see her unclothed and she has removed her ring. At the massages, we stairs down to nothing, so maybe she's peeking out of her shell a bit. I guess time will tell. I've read here that time is my friend. I spend my time reminding myself to remove negative thoughts from my mind and replace them with positive thoughts instead. Looks for things to give thanks for.

[Pathfinder2]

Still in limbo land with the moderators, so I can't see anything from my last posts. I'll try to not be redundant.

AS, you inquired as to the night club. You are absolutely correct that this is a major ingredient in the turmoil that is our marriage.

As you can see, my wife is ten years younger than I. I think this plays a big part in our disconnect. I come from an extremely conservative family. Some may say downright boring. I have never been one who felt comfortable at parties. I was kept away from that crowd by my parents. I was raised in a very sheltered environment. My wife, however, comes from a broken home. Her parents split when she finished high school, but we all know the dynamics of disjunction were there.

Where she grew up, the city was entirely walkable. No need for autos. You can drink and walk home from the club/pub. She and her sibling didn't have a set time to come home. They were pretty much latch key kids and had no curfew. I believe that this has a lot to do with the culture, but also the family falling apart. My wife showed signs of missing her European ways when we met up with some of her friends about 13 years ago. When we met up with them, her conduct changed remarkably. The get together was pretty much about drinking beer, shots and reminiscing about the good ole days. She was 25 then. What surprised me was her smoking while drinking. She NEVER smoked. She eventually ended up sitting outside, crying, with me wondering what to say to her. It turned out, she was missing her life with her friends back in Europe. Again, this was 13 years ago. Never saw anything like this from her again.

Now that she has these new friends, it has become common place to go out. It started with "I am getting together with the girls". They would meet up at a bar our social club, have some drinks, chit chat, do whatever girls do. Later, this turned into "I'm going out with my friends". The group now included the girls and their husbands/fiancées. I never went because I was taking care of our kids.

The latest twist is for everyone to go out to bars/nightclubs. I told her that I feel those places are just for girls to see and be seen and for guys to try to pick up girls. Of course, she vehemently denied this and informed my that I needed to lighten up. The girls just "like to dance". I went out with her alone one time to one of these clubs. Of course, I didn't really feel like I fit in there. The crowd is in their younger 20s to maybe very low 30s. I just don't see the appeal. I had a couple of drinks, she danced and we left around 11:30. A very early evening for her.

Gonna wrap this post up. I'll continue in my next submission.

[Pathfinder2]

Continuation of the club scene. I'm pretty sure that I know why the girls are headed to the night clubs. And it's NOT because they all want to bolster the health of their domestic relationships. They are using it to build their egos and feel better about themselves.

Lately, my wife has taken to coming home at 3am or later after her nights out. She tells me that she's with her girls. I find that pretty disturbing. She is a supposedly married woman, and a mother of two young children. One morning, she came walking in sick from alcohol at 6:30 am. I didn't say anything, except ask her how she got home if she wasn't driving in that condition. She told me she drove. Drunk driving mother of two. Pretty irresponsible.

Last time she went to a club (that I know of) I made sure I gave her plenty of space. Didn't crowd her keep track of her or anything like that. I made sure I was involved in conversation on the restaurant side of the house with the other husbands. All this in an attempt to show her that I am not tracking her every move.

The guy in question showed as well. My wife made solid eye contact with me when she hugged him in greeting. As if she was trying to draw a reaction from me. I made sure I didn't give her that. BTW, the guy never greeted me. But did so with others. He is close to many of them and I am not. It still was pretty rude.

Later, the women went to the dance side of the club. I made sure to not follow them until much later, after us other guys had closed out our bill. I eventually made my way over with another husband to find our group. The first people I could find we're my wife and this other guy. They were on the dance floor and she had her arm up around his neck. I lost it.

I tapped him off and her cleared out. I pulled her out and asked her what was going on. I then confronted him and told him I didn't like him hanging out with my wife when I'm out of town. We ended up facing off, nose to nose in the club. Just a hair trigger away from a fight. So... that was the major setback in the club.

Since then I have told her I don't want him around here when I'm gone. My wife argued with me over this and I told her she was free to choose what she wanted to do, but I also have choices, which included separation, divorce and swapping kids back and forth.

I have since seen this guy at another function with the friends. Neither one of us spoke to each other and it was a very small gathering. Although I have no proof (due to trying to employ DB technique of no discovery)' I remain convinced that this guy is indeed after my wife and that she is giving him an open door. If that were not the case, I would think that I would have received some sort of overture from him about not trying to cause trouble and an apology since he has.

I have since decided that I am going to go dim on my wife. She really needs to figure out what she wants in life. It is obvious to me that she doesn't know. It's time for her to start seeing what it will be like with out me.

In addition, (forgive me for repeating), my 180s are:

Tight money management (I have always been responsible, but spent freely)
Keeping a very clean house (let the majority of the work fall on her)
Spending time with kids (started doing this during the summer. I'm enjoying it!)
GAL (always derived my emotional well being though her)
Working out (dropped 15 lbs over the summer. I look cut and fit now. Still improving)
Changing up my wardrobe (always been a conservative dresser. Looking for more of a contemporary edge now)
Asking wife's opinion and going with it (wife told me that one of the things she resents is that things always had to be MY way)

I am convinced that I not only have a WAW, but a wife in MLC as well. She's 39, is the oldest of her friends, and sees her 48 Y/O husband aging in addition to herself. She gave up her career to stay home and raise our kids, who are getting to the point where you are starting to be able to imagine them as young women. She has gone from married motHer of two to "perpetual 28 Y/O (she actually told our kids that with me in front of her)" hip, party girl. She has a new wardrobe purchased of the last year, has really gotten conscious about her weight and has lost about 8 lbs in the process of her transformation. She is not a big girl. She's 5'5" and at one point she was down to 120 and pushing for 118. I mean she looks great, but boy, what a price!

[Pathfinder2]

Picked up my wife at the airport yesterday. I tried my best to have PMA. I clocked dinner and made sure there was nothing at home that she needed to do. I tried a few times to get her to open up in conversation, but it seemed as though she wasn't interested. She spent lots of time fawning over the kids.

She noticed the new shirt I was wearing and how spotless the house was. I had cleaned the fridge and organized the pantry. However, when she saw the pantry, she was upset, said I had made it so she couldn't find anything and asked me if I was trying to get her to leave.

I have said before that she complained about how much time it took for her to do the books. I told her I would like to take over. I really was offering as a way to reduce her stress load at home. I think she has taken it as another sign that I am trying to push her out of the house.

I talked with her last night after she went off on me about a bill she thought I had screwed up. It turned out that I had done everything just fine and that she had misread the statement, but that was discovered after I suffered through her speech about how she will give me the smallest thing to do and I always mess it up.

I talked with her about how I am not trying to push her out. I would very much like to restore out marriage. I told her again of my love for her. I also told her I wanted her to be happy and if her leaving was what it required for her to be happy, then I was prepared to help her do that. I told her I want her, but will be fine without her. I asked her if she was so unhappy, why hasn't she left? Her reply was the kids and that she doesn't want to look like it was her fault. She feels I should leave since I'm gone for work half the time anyways. I really feel strongly that it should be my wife who leaves if we split. I find it amazing that she would expect us to separate when it is something she wants and then she would ask me to be the one to start living a new life while she feels no change whatsoever. AS, I feel like you that if we separated, then she needs to feel a stark difference. It should not be life as usual, because that's not what it would be if we went our own ways.

Again, she voiced a willingness to go to counseling. However, she again stated that she can't seem to be able to figure out how to change how she feels. The whole thing is, she bases her decisions on her feelings. If the feeling isn't there, then it's over. If the feeling is there, then things are good. How does one break out of this?

I mentioned before that I had been talking with my family. I have now ceased conversation about this subject with them. I am hoping this will help, but I realize that it may take months before I see any positive outcome from this move, if I ever do at all.