The immediate issue may be settled. But the dysfunctional dynamic does not really seem to have been touched. Until that is changed, financial disagreements will continue to hurt you and your M. The more helpful goal is to aim at prevention :-)
Tori, thanks for dropping in. I appreciate your support.
Oldtimer, the dysfunction has been addressed. It hasn't been totally "fixed" because I think H would love to continue giving his daughter money, hence my trust issues. He's is really in the first stage of his "empty nest syndrome" whereas, I went through mine years ago.
MC of some sort will have to happen, IMHO.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
ss, I have no step-children experience but I think Oldtimer makes some valid points, come back and read the posts again later.
Do I pay half of everything with my small SS check while he makes 5 times a month what I do?
It could be figured on a percentage basis. And I think since your financial circumstances are a major sticking point in the marriage, seeing a financial adviser about this might be very helpful. A knowledgeable disinterested third party can sometimes make all the difference in walking through these charged issues.
Good luck.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
thanks, bug. we saw a financial attorney about 10 years ago. we created a living trust to address all the financial issues that go along with having a step family. the problem is, H has ignored the stipulations of the trust. now, i'm holding him to them.
as long as he does not give our marital funds to his kids (to the tune of $500 a month), we're of like minds with it comes to money.
what's crazy to me is how he can think it's ok to help his daughter (who has her own money) and scoffs at giving my adult son a matching amount (a living trust requirement that both sides get matching monitary gifts, excluding birthdays, christmas, etc.). to me, that just shows how ludicrious this was; he finds that to be asking too much of him but not of me. that stipulation was put there by our attorney to protect both sides, not just mine.
oldtimer's point about the dysfunction not being "touched" is wrong. it's been touched and stopped, as far as actual funneling money to his side of our family.
as for what motivates that dysfunction for H, that's his demon (in my opinion).
i think neither you nor oldtimer would want to give $500 a month to someone else's adult child. especially, since she's quite capable of supporting herself. heck, i don't want to give my own kid that kind of money each month.
i don't think my position on this is unreasonable nor dysfunctional. i think the dysfunction comes from being married to someone who thinks it's ok to ask this of his wife.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
p.s. if i have to separate all our monies and figure out percentages to pay on bills, dinners, groceries, why would i want to stay married to him? it would be easier and less stressful to live on my own, with my own means. i can't be married and live that way.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
This is such a complex issue. I can see both sides of it, even though my perspective is that of a SM.
For example, I could ask that if you were not going to reconcile with your H and met someone new that was spending $500/mo on his daughter, would you expect him to stop because his money would suddenly become marital money? I think probably not, because you would recognize that you might not have a leg to stand on. But that's different.
I think the real key in your sitch is that this is not a NEW M. You've been M'd for 15 years, which means you spent a good portion of your M, and I'm sure your personal finances, on your steps when they were younger. When people hear your sitch *now* and your approach to things *now*, I don't think that's being taken into consideration. So if splitting things up by percentages were a viable option, then it should have been done years ago when it was 1 of you vs. 4 of them. Your H should have been paying 80% of everything. I didn't get that impression from your earlier posts, but rather that your income was used to supplement his shortfall. I also got the impression that you were previously very generous, but simply feel now like enough is enough.
There really isn't a correct answer, or a right or wrong. It really boils down to what works for you, and I don't think there's anything wrong with defining your personal hill.
I understand that H is currently complying with your wishes. I would disagree that the dysfunction has been addressed.
Here are two problems I see:
(1) Trust and love are too closely connected to in your mind to the idea that H should apparently have no real financial autonomy in your M.
(2) H and his D are at very different places in their lives due to their ages than you and your S. This is fine as long as both sides recognize that and allow space for that. But, that doesn't seem to be happening.
To be in a marriage with shared financial goals does not require one to forfeit all financial autonomy. Nor does allowing for some financial autonomy require all bills to be split into percentages, nor any other complicated dynamic. You might, for instance, decide that you each get $100 or $1000 a month that you may spend in any way you wish. There is nothing complicated, unloving, fiscally unsound, or anti-marriage in such an agreement.
So, if you each get $100/month (or whatever) to spend on your own freely, would it still be a problem if H used his to help out his D?
Of course I may be mistaken, but my sense is that (1) you would still resent how he spent that money and (2) you wouldn't go for him having that kind of financial autonomy in the first place.
If that's right, then there seems to be enough dysfunction when it comes to finances in your M that financial control issues will continue to put it at significant risk.
Last thing: FWIW, I have found that if I make greater progress toward my goals when I try to (1) open my mind to ideas toward which I feel the most emotional resistance, and (2) stop reacting defensively.
CV, i appreciate your understanding. to answer your question, no, i would not expect a someone to stop spending $500/mo. on his adult daughter. but what i would do is steer clear of that man because he has major guilt issues. if his daughter were in the same situation as my SD23 is, there would be no need for him to give her that money.
also, knowing what i know now about how my H is and his kids, i would not have married him. but, even if i did, i would have, at the very least, kept our money separate. then he could spend on his D23 'till his heart's content. but he wouldn't be able to afford it because i supplemented his income to make his "disney daddy" life with them possible.
oldtimer, this issue goes back to trust. this is not "my wishes". we made agreements a long time ago about our finances. we made legal documents. he did not live up to them and honor them. he disrespected me and our marriage by doing that; placing their financial comfort above mine after all the sacrifices i made for him and them and after the time we agreed it would stop, for the most part.
oldtimer, we have financial autonomy. i buy what i want. he buys what he wants. in fact, i love to see him buy things for himself. and i'm not afraid to buy things for myself. we don't ask each other for permission.
however, $6,000 a year to his daughter is not "autonomy". at this point in her life and in her situation, that's stealing from me. that's how i feel about it. i never resent anything he wants for himself or us. but this is a partnership, not a sole proprietorship, and she's not one of the partners anymore. unless she's his mini-wife?
i'll give you this: i do not want our money spent to support his adult children anymore. i WOULD resent it if he did that. after almost $200,000 in support going towards his kids over the past 16 years, am i not allowed to now want that to stop?? they are not children anymore. i shopped at walmart for my clothing for years because of all the financial obligations of H. our lives were dictated by his child support and what he wanted in life (rental properties, boats, home on the water, etc.). i went along and sacrificed.
when do you think my sacrificing for his kids should be allowed to stop? are you giving your SD $500 a month? you say she's able to take care of her own life now and doesn't need help. so is mine. so what? when you agree to let your wife give yours $6,000 a year, let me know. then i'll be more inclined to listen to you and not react so "defensively". until then, i don't think you have a lot of credibility here.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
scaredsilly, I don't see that I said I thought anyone should be giving any adult children $500, sorry for that misunderstanding.
About the proportional giving there are ways to figure that with income and outgo, each puts in a proportion based on income and it leaves both with discretionary income. It doesn't take into account income from savings but if he has decided in the past not to honor an agreement about that, I'm not sure what you can do.
Was this money issue a stated boundary when you decided to reconcile?
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
bug, i know you weren't saying that. it seemed to me that Oldtimer was implying that i'm "dysfunctional" if i'm not ok with it for SD23.
we put in $200/month for christmas gifts into our christmas club; $1,200 to his side and the same to mine. we give each adult child $100 for birthdays and the same for grandchildren and his mother. his side outnumbered mine for a long time but that never bothered me. i don't keep count on something like that. he has alluded to mine now outnumbering his but i don't even want to hear about that. he has three kids and they will have kids so i'm not going to start counting pennies (and decendants).
my H is very frugal. i've always been much more giving and generous than he is, unless it comes to HIS kids, then he's generous...but not to mine. i won't have this double standard anymore. if anyone can use a $500-a-month gift, it's my S40 who has five kids, a stay-at-home wife, a mortgage, two car payments, and a child who needs on-going medical procedures!
but i'm not asking for us to support him in anyway.
i won't get involved in dividing our income and paying things proportionately. to me, it's way too late for that. i have paid in much more, proportionately for his obligations than mine, primarily, because i didn't have any and he did. so now, since our money was always "ours", it's too late for making it "his" and "mine". it would not be fair to me.
yes, this boundary was one of my list of things i need in a mate and one of my firm boundaries that i stated to H prior to our R attempt. he was the one who, without prompting, advised me that he had told his daughter it was stopping. that would have been the only way i would stay in this relationship. i was very clear.
so, i'm not dysfunctional. i think giving money to an able-bodied, adult college graduate, who has no loans and more money in the bank than most people, IS dysfunctional, especially, when your mate, who is not that person's parent, objects. it's wrong on so many levels and to me, begs for counseling. H has refused MC before but i think it is something that will have to happen. i will broach it again soon.
thankfully, "adult support" has stopped. all monies coming into our marriage have always been "ours". all monies going out have to be "ours", too, or else the accounting favors him (who is still working) when it was supposed to be "ours" after i retired and brought in less.
i appreciate your advice and empathy, bug.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
