Okay, the other day RegretfulLA lamented that everyone seemed to have a bad couple days at the same time on these boards and I agreed as it looked that way. Now a few positives in one day… you and RLA (so far) and others going to Retrouvaille this weekend…AM and AS. I think this is good CV. He is being vulnerable. His confidence is knocked and he is beating himself up a bit. As far as suggestion goes, I would say not necessarily to boost his ego and confidence, but rather not at all bring it down. He does need to help build it up on his own a bit but not being criticized for anything would be a 180. If there are pints you want to help him with, careful in the delivery of what would help without knocking him. Your question of asking him for examples put him on the spot a bit. You are aware of him not expressing himself and have knocked him for that is the past. So putting him on the spot may either get him to stumble and feel humiliated or to lie (his normal defence). I did this to my W so I recognize this now in the shut-down person. I am the talker, logic maker and W is the shut-down type. It is so good he wants to open up, just please make sure he feels safe and comfortable without him feeling reprimanded for doing so. It will only crate a gotcha or told you so feeling and you don't want him feeling lie that or he will retreat to his habits. You're doing great getting him to open up. Keep him there.
M17 yrs. me49 xW47 d15 d11
BD1-Jul/11(Affair found out) Therapy 9 months (tried 2) BD2- May/12(sep) Court Jul/13 - I got 50/50 Sold home - Aug/13 Court #2 - Dec/13 Court#3 - Apr/14 ... She lost again We settled.
Okay, so where is the "opening up" part? That he feels like he always gives in because I'm hard-headed? Cause I have a whole list of those things. He's pretty good about telling me the many, many ways that I make him feel bad, and pointing out the many flaws in my character. What I don't have is any reflection on what I do that makes him feel or think that way. How do I do a 180 when I don't know what I'm doing wrong in the first place?
Also, I had asked H at one point earlier in the evening to spell out for me what he wanted. He printed for me some notes he typed up. I want to say that I understand and appreciate the effort he put into it, as I realize that he is trying to communicate.
But the very first sentence is "I want to be committed to CV and know there is nothing either of us can do to lose the others love." And later, "I hope for CV to be able to ignore my 'disrespectful' habits." There are several other themes like this, with him wanting to be loved in spite of his poor behavior.
Oops, I cut off the first sentence. It reads, "I want to be committed to CV and know there is nothing either of us can do to lose the others love, affection and emotional support."
I don't have many answers for you. I mean my H would have been perfectly happy for me to sit there and waste away while he did whatever he wanted. Not a good formula for a mutually beneficial relationship. So, there is work to be done here.
However, I did want to share with you something. When my H and I separated the first time, my mom sat down and had a talk with me. She said that I was very hard to argue with as I handled many conversations like a lawyer. I would ask for evidence of their argument and then when they were unable to retort, I "won" the argument. Only I really hadn't. I failed to understand that people are slower with responses and are simply not able to articulate their feelings. So I caution you to be mindful of that with your H. While that doesn't help to get to answers, it's a warning that we may get further away from that possibility when we handle things like lawyers rather than an emotional exchange. Not saying you are doing this as it's very difficult to understand dynamics through simply what is written on the boards.
Obviously, this is a VERY interesting development to say the least. He "feels" something is going on or else he would have continued on his merry way. He is clearly unable to know what to do with that. Your biggest issue seems to be that he wants you to accept his bad behavior. (Oh I so get it). My suggestion? You focus on that right now. You are not going to solve this thing in one day, if you solve it at all. But I have a theory about things. When things become so overwhelming, we need to simplify the goal. Just do one thing. So if your one thing is to focus in on that part of the conversation, then focus in on that and let the rest go for the moment. So, go ahead and focus on that. Validate his feelings (don't agree with them just let him know you are listening), ask him to please try to observe your interactions over the next week or so and write down when he feels he's not being "loved," and then use that as an opportunity to explain how it is that you have felt unloved. He is clearly looking for some kind of security. I don't quite know how, but you need to find a way to make him feel secure in these interactions. That you are both on the same side. Otherwise, he will continue alienate. Hopes this helps a little bit.
He is acknowledging his behaviour. Like an alcoholic, this is this is the first step to healing and resolving the problem. No, I am not saying you or anyone should accept living with an alcoholic, but accept his acknowledging. This is not to say accepting his disrespectful behaviour. That will come with loving and caring conversation that will tell him that you just can’t ignore it. This will be a boundary set but careful it does not come out as ultimatum or threat. You won’t accept the behaviour. Like the alcoholic, you will explain that no you will not accept it or ignore it because it is ultimately hurtful to you, him and you as a couple and family. He is also expressing how he feels. Remember, feelings are not wrong just because they aren't yours. I had to swallow this too and am still trying to. He is writing/communicating thoughts. That s good CV, no matter if you agree with the thought or not. My W would not talk or right, so I certainly get your question of how do you know what to do. This should answer your question of how you find out what you are doing wrong (not necessarily wrong, just what is needed to change in this circumstance). Your changes will lead to his changes. I think LIS's reply is great re; her example of the lawyer. Don’t argue it, accept it. More will come out as he feels comfortable to share. Clearly he is struggling to communicate and that may not be all of his fault. LIS’s suggestions are also great.
M17 yrs. me49 xW47 d15 d11
BD1-Jul/11(Affair found out) Therapy 9 months (tried 2) BD2- May/12(sep) Court Jul/13 - I got 50/50 Sold home - Aug/13 Court #2 - Dec/13 Court#3 - Apr/14 ... She lost again We settled.
Hey LIS! Good to hear from you! Anything new on your front?
I know what you're saying about arguing like a lawyer. I think I used to be like that, but I've worked really hard and have done a good job of adjusting that. I used to be very defensive when he would do this same thing, accusing me of something I was certain I didn't do. It used to be important to me that he see that he was wrong and admit it. I mean who wants their S to think horrible things about them, right? Especially when they aren't true. Unfortunately, H seems to need to do that. It's "part of his personality."
I wish I felt more like you do, that he's motivated because he feels like something is going on. Frankly, I think it's just that he wants sex. It was mentioned several time in our discussion. Usually I would have given in by now, but I haven't so he's in a bit of a dry spell.
It's hard to say which is the bigger problem -- the fact that he considers it reasonable to degrade because it's his personality type, or the fact that I'm supposed to continue to be loving/affectionate in spite of it. It addresses my trust issue, though -- with his formula, trust isn't a requirement.
So in my LBS scenarios, I feel like you might LIS, that I could do all sorts of work on myself to save the M, but then not be able to make my M work anyway because I can't tolerate H's behavior.
Hey sweetie. Nothing new. God awful. Don't recommend it
Ok, you say, let's look at this from an LBS. I take that to mean an LBS on DB who WANTS to reconcile their marriage. That means take me and my situation out of the equation. Take the past out of the equation. AND, stop mind reading and looking for or assuming a motive. The idea is that you want back in.
You are trying to find out an answer while protecting yourself. That won't work. Ever. Take my word for it, I could write a book on it. You have 2 choices: 1) You make yourself vulnerable and take the leap without looking for his motive OR 2) You protect yourself with the understanding that there really is no way to reconcile this thing. Believe me, I am not here to judge you because I took option 2. So I will not beat you up because I believe that it eventually gets to that. Are you there? If you are not there, then the walls will need to come down with blind faith. Faith is believing in something when there is no proof that it is true. So while I understand your reservations (I really, really understand), you need to make that decision. And it must be for YOU. Not for him. Not for son. Not for a piece of paper. For you.
Now, from an outsiders observations, it looks like he is trying. And maybe he wants sex, but let's be honest, that's not too difficult to get anywhere. He wants sex from you. Now, that's interesting... hmmmm...
CV, your H sounds like a combination of my first H and my present one. as i said, my first was just unable to be what i needed. i could have done all the DB'ing in the world but it would not have made a difference. he would try to be sensitive but it was so against the grain that it couldn't last. he grew up with four brothers and a really macho father. they knew nothing about women except how to have sex with them (and not good sex, either).
my present H feels like yours does. he's told me that i'm "a better arguer" and that's why he can't make his point (or give examples, as in your case).
i think your H is very intimidated by you (hell, i am). he knows you're very, very smart. he knows you have standards you won't compromise and he's unable to meet them.
i think he wants you to love him but he doesn't know how to make that happen. he's just "unable", like my first H, but he doesn't want to take any responsibility for it.
there may not be any way to "fix" this? you may just have to settle until you're not willing to settle anymore?
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
LIS, I think about you a lot. I know your sitch can't be easy. I pray for you everyday that it gets better. I know it will, but I want it to hurry up.
lol! Okay, so the reason I say I'm not mind-reading H's motivation is because he said that's his motivation. I asked him why we couldn't just continue as we were for the last month, where I was modifying my interactions with him to cover all his complaints (being pleasant, not controlling, not criticizing, not expecting conversation, etc.) and he seemed quite happy with it. He answered because he wants to have sex with his W and realizes he's not going to get that need of his met without meeting some of my needs. So, that's something anyway.
FM, I agree that he's acknowledged his behavior, but I don't get the idea that he thinks it's bad. Isn't that necessary, even for a first step? His wish list indicates that he just wants me to accept it. Also, you said, "This should answer your question of how you find out what you are doing wrong." I'm missing this. How do I find that out?
Originally Posted By: LIS
Faith is believing in something when there is no proof that it is true.
How does one still have faith when there's every reason to believe it's NOT true? Jumping off a 3-story roof and believing I'll be fine when gravity tends to prove otherwise would simply be foolishness. I don't know if I'm "there." Perhaps I'm still in denial, but I'd like to die knowing I tried everything.
SS, I don't think I'm that smart. I don't know what makes me intimidating. I find people intimidating when I know they'll physically harm me, or will employ unethical means to get something from me. With that, there are no rules, no way to know how to engage. I don't find rules intimidating. Then I know what to expect. And I find people that are capable intriguing. I would love to understand this somehow.
You're right in that I may have the same issue with my H as you had with your first. I may get where you got to. I may already be there. I'm just so easily sukked in by H's actions, unfortunately.
