Walking the path to my own happiness

[Breakdown]

We are going to a new MC in a few weeks, one who supposedly "has balls".

I must have missed that. That's great news!

My focus is going to be coparenting now, and we'll see what other issues surface in a less emotionally charged environment.

Hah! Great minds think alike

[mamabird]

Breakdown, there definitely has been some progress made in terms of communication. He hasn't lashed out at me in a while, honestly, and seems to be more accepting of the reality that he has to move out. He has never had problems voicing his feelings - it's just getting to the point where he wants to do that. Does that make sense?

I have been increasingly concerned about the negative modeling. It's very distressing for me. I constantly have to correct that. Maybe it's controlling but it's more important that my sons have the right information.

Compassion and forgiveness... working on both. I have that awful neighbor that I'm so angry with, and I'm just trying to refocus that to compassion. I don't know if it's working because I still hate her. But, with H... I do try to have some compassion for him but I'm not really sure how to show it. If he had lost a job or broken a leg or some external thing it would be easier. Since I am "the cause" of this it's much harder.

I'm getting to the point of forgiving myself, but these conversations still really sting, so I know I'm not nearly there. Honestly I will probably have better luck with forgiving myself when I don't have my H constantly reminding me how badly I f***ed up.

One thing I forgot to mention: H said last night that he wasn't responsible for my happiness. That's true, but I feel like by saying that, he is implying that he tried and if it wasn't good enough, or wasn't what I needed, tough. He's actually said something along those lines - justifying the fact that he was draining my emotional tank instead of filling it. A simple apology would go so far in that regard...

[mamabird]

One other thing to say today. It's important to keep a journal of my feelings because they change so frequently. I'm reading a book now that talks about how unreliable our memories are - we make up things. So I'm glad have have my journalings to fall back on...

[mamabird]

Just did my monthly budget. Assuming I keep my part time job, my H is going to have to come up with a bundle to keep us in this house. He'll have enough left over to pay his own bills, but not a whole lot for rent on top of it. Luckily for him, he's starting another business, and luckily for me, he is generous and wants us all to have what we need.

[FloydMan]

RLA, I read your earlier post and I can tell you an A is more overwhelming that the betrayer will ever realize. I am not saying this or what I am about to say as laying blame or guilt, but rather try to give you insight from this side of the fence, as your posts have given me insight too. Yes, your H does need that assurance otherwise it will fail…..we were well warned in MC. My W ignored the advice of the 2 MC’s, the books After the Affair and 5LL’s, along with other publication by the more prominent people on this topic. Read Divorce Remedy chapter on Infidelity again too. They all say the same thing and the prescribed route. These are the best minds in the world on this topic and to ignore that advice and the advice of people that have been through it just for sake of pride and stubbornness in my view a little selfish in light of what I was put through. Sorry but I am being kindly blunt. It may not be selfish, but sure comes across that way. You cannot blame the betrayed spouse for the A because your needs weren’t met or any other reason. Was his needs met? Was mine? Don’t know about your H, but mine weren’t. I dropped the ball in other areas and worked hard to correct them as prescribed. Both spouses are responsible for the dysfunction of the M leading to the A. But the Betrayer needs to own this and make it right as much as possible. Don’t look at it as “the land of guilt and self-flaggellation” as you say. Look at it as prescribed medication. My W has been on Blood Pressure meds for 5 years and takes them religiously because the doctor says she needs them for her health. Well, 2 doctors and the best in the business prescribe this method of healing so why is it brushed off. Sometimes the medicine is bad tasting, but needed. It would not last forever, but required for trust to be built.
It seems you and your H are both waiting for the other to prove who is more committed. Well, is DB not teaching us to take our own action and put it in place and not worry about the other person and what they do? Take action. I am glad you are going to MC. Really take heed of the healing advice on an A. It is not about blaming the A or the reason for it, but it does need to be addressed and dealt with. Actions speak louder than words of promise. Just trying to help kiddo as it seems you are not ready to throw in the towel contrary to what you say you are doing. Clearly your H is not done with his actions contrary to his words. It is tough, hard and hurting on both of you.

[mamabird]

thank you FM - no offense taken, you are very kind and I know you are here to help...

I'm going to answer your questions a bit out of order:

It seems you and your H are both waiting for the other to prove who is more committed.

I don't know that this is true... he doesn't seem committed at all. It's more of a standoff on who is LESS committed - who will actually take the first steps towards S or D. That's how I feel anyway.

Really take heed of the healing advice on an A.

I'm really stuck on this one, quite frankly. I just don't know what to do, because I see H's position as one of a power grab. First of all, in After the Affair, it explicitly says that healing can only be done if both people want it. I asked my H to go through that book with me and he flat out refused. It is a process that we both need to participate in.

I did get him to read part of the book on his own. It specifically says that the wayward spouse should do what ever the betrayed spouse requires in order to rebuild trust. That would mean open access to email, phone, checking in, not going out, being an open book, basically. It DOES NOT MEAN "doing whatever the hurt spouse wants." I am perfectly willing to do all of the above, and more (such as sleep on a sofa bed for over 4 months). The examples given in that book are great and I only wish they were happening in my sitch. Bottom line, my H has no interest in forgiving me or rebuilding trust. He does have an interest in exerting control and punishing me.

Example: H said that "if I really wanted to make things right I would have stayed with that therapist." Control play right there... I told him after the first appt I didn't like that guy, but yet I agreed to see him ONLY because H wanted to. As Breakdown said, there comes a point where I have to consider me, too.

So. I am really open to any and all suggestions here. Bring them on. I just don't know what to do anymore. Breakdown said read the 5 Languages of Apology, which is a great suggestion. But as far as actions, I am stuck. DB says don't grovel, but H seems to want groveling. It's like he gets off on that in some sick way.

Just trying to help kiddo as it seems you are not ready to throw in the towel contrary to what you say you are doing. Clearly your H is not done with his actions contrary to his words. It is tough, hard and hurting on both of you.

This is true. I see the tiniest little glimmers of hope, at least I did in last night's conversation. Or, better stated, I'm pretty sure he's not done. BUT... he's also not willing to move forward. I would be willing to hang in there and try some more if I felt that we could somehow resolve all of this, but at no time over the last 7 months has H ever indicated that he's willing to forgive or change his mind. We talk and talk and talk and it always comes around to, "And that's why I can't be with you." So it's super frustrating for me, and that is why I had to decide to start letting go. It feels like he just wants to see me in pain... to pay back some of the pain I inflicted on him. He says he wants a good R because we have to co-parent (true) but I'm not sure how that can happen. I think that is cake eating... he wants to have a good R but doesn't feel that he needs to forgive me, treat me as if I have a valid point of view, or apologize for his own contribution to the disintegration of our M.

I hope it doesn't sounds like I'm blaming H for the A. I don't. That was my own choice. What I do blame him for is his verbal and psychological abuse, his withholding, his rejection. These are serious infractions in a M. Not being capable of dealing with this in a productive way (talking to him, going to IC) at the time, I chose a way that would be hurtful back at him. He accuses me of being calculated about it, but it wasn't as calculated as he thinks it was. I think that we have to justify our behavior somewhat so we can make sense of it. If we don't go through that justification process, then what we are left with is "I'm a bad person," "I'm a psychopath," "I have no character," etc... which is not compatible with any sort of self-worth.

[FloydMan]

Well I think we can help each other here because I am in your H's shoes and you are in my W's. At least as far as the A is concerned. Much of the dynamics of the M are different but some are very much the same. So...
Look at things with a little less confrontational wording. For example...instead of a 'standoff' you are at an impasse. Now, instead of who will take the first step to D, who will take the first step to Reconciliation. This will be you as you are already taking the lead by doing this and he is at a loss for answers too.
'Power grab' and 'control play' are what you are perceiving. My W says the same thing about me and honestly I have said similar things your H has. Trust me, he does not feel he is in control or has power. He is lost and these are defences from hurt and mistrust. I honestly don't want power or control in the R but rather balance. my W wants control. Perhaps I am wrong on that assertion but that is my perception. Same with you and your H. Trust had been broken and that is hurt he is feeling. There is a very key line in Affair the Affair referring to nonreactive listening. It says something like: "Do not listen too closely to your partner's insults.......try to go beyond your partner's words and hear the hurt behind them". Your H does want healing but he is afraid and defensive. So the explicit message the book says does apply. Also, remember DB is about one person doing it, not necessarily both at first. Read DR about infidelity again. this is an outline that is consistent with all experts in this field. It is hard work, they make no mistake in saying so. This is not your spouse specifically and his need for control or power. This is any betrayed spouse that would feel this way, male or female. Yes, he needs to be sure before he invests his heart (men have hearts too) again. This is where you take the lead and control without it being perceived as such.
Remember too, he is feeling verbally and psychologically abused, neglected, love and affection withheld and given elsewhere too. This is what my W does not understand and it is very frustrating for me to know that she does not get that. I had apologized many times for my role in the M breakdown but maybe not the language she understands. This is not a shot at you but it did happen 2x so he is right in his concerns. It cannot be about words you say, but rather actions. Don't worry, you are not a bad person or a psychopath. Just a lost, hurt and confused person like the rest of us here. Clearly you are trying, and that is worth a medal in itself. Go for the gold.....but any competition and championship and success comes with sacrifice, hard work, endurance and commitment. If he sees gains, he will jump on board.

[mamabird]

FM...

Trust me, he does not feel he is in control or has power. He is lost and these are defences from hurt and mistrust. I honestly don't want power or control in the R but rather balance. my W wants control.

I can see this in my M. Probably, you are right... H does not really want control, but I think in order to be balanced you have to consider the other person's needs. He does not do that. For example, one of the things I've been thinking about recently is that he doesn't help me much. I come off as capable and whatever, so to him that = she doesn't need any help. Well, Acts of Service is a big LL for me so I feel like my needs aren't being met = no balance.

Do I want control? Yes. I do. At least in some areas, like the finances, because he can't manage finances. I want my own stipend to pay the monthly household bills, the kids stuff, pay down debt, buy a few things for me and save whatever is leftover.

Are there things I can't control? Yes. Am I going to have to get better at dealing with that? Yes.

I will read the DR section on infidelity again. I have had trouble understanding his deal on this, especially around OM1 since "nothing happened" between me and him, but I understand better now that it his issue was more around the deceit and my refusal to give up OM1. That also is a serious infraction on my part.

Remember too, he is feeling verbally and psychologically abused, neglected, love and affection withheld and given elsewhere too.

I do understand that and it's clear that I did some not-so-nice things over the years to foster those feelings. I'm just not sure how to go about repairing the damage at this point.

So let's talk about his needs for a minute.

Just before you joined the board, FM, I went through a period of being very loving towards H. He mostly accepted it and it made things a lot smoother and led towards us being able to co-exist somewhat peacefully. Then, the day after his birthday, he went on a date with someone else. We had been invited to a birthday party, which he blew off, and went out with this other chick (I went to the party by myself, achieved a perfect buzz, and had fun.) He says there's nothing going on with this girl, which I know is not really true since I went through a prior period of looking at his phone. Sure, maybe they are not dating but definitely an EA of sorts there.

So, after that happened, I got cold again. We started with that horrible MC. Not that I would have expected anything too much different, but most of the time in there was him lodging his complaints - and because he was the hurt partner, he got to run the show. Is that how it was with you too?

I think my H has low self esteem. No, I know that. He even admitted it to me last night when I asked him why he verbally abused me. I am sure that doesn't help him much in all of this because deep down inside he has felt he wasn't good enough and then I went and proved it to him.

I suppose I had some sort of expectation that things would be a little better by now. Yes, we made some great progress in Sept and Oct because I was being loving towards him. On Christmas Eve I reached for his hand and he said "No thank you." He declines any and all social invitations now. We did go to a few parties together over the holidays but basically it was like 2 strangers sharing a ride. He actively avoided me both times. It is like being stabbed in the heart each time. I probably won't even attend our school's fundraiser this year because I just don't want to deal with one of two potential outcomes: 1) avoiding him or 2) going by myself. As of now, the chance that we'd go and he'd be at all interested in me is basically zero. Maybe I'll go and work the whole time so I will have an excuse not to socialize. Sorry to sound like Debbie Downer about it.

I told H last night that I have no good faith left. All I have left in me now is to try to stay civil. Yes, I can not frame things so negatively. Yes, I can try not to start any fights. Yes, I can not nag him or get in his business. I still cook his dinner, wash and fold his laundry and bring him a cup of coffee as he sits down to work, I can continue to do that much, be nice, ask him about his day and how things are going. But I feel like I have to put me first now... not the M. I don't trust that he won't hurt me again, either. Honestly, FM, it hurts too much to keep trying and to keep being so flatly rejected and I just can't do it anymore.

My best hope is for saving the R now is for us to S and start over. Hopeful said don't think of saving your M, think of it as starting a new one. The only problem is, H can't see his way to ever forgiving me so I'm not sure it will ever happen. He happens to be a champion grudge holder.

Just as an aside, I've known H since the 7th grade. One time, I was talking on the phone to him and my friend was listening. He didn't know. Again, somewhat of a deceitful crappy thing to do, but we were in junior high which I think is enough of an excuse right there. Anyway, my friend's dad gets on the phone and tells her to get off. So, of course, H was freaked out. I apologized to him and bought him a card too, and he was nasty about it for quite some time. He had every right to be upset but I remember him not forgiving that for a very long time. Thank goodness he has forgotten about it or I'm sure it would be part of his big character flaw argument.

[mamabird]

Starting to pay attention to the patterns going on with me and my H. This morning my son had an early soccer game so H made some food. I asked him if there was anything left or if I'd have to get something on my own. He said, "There's toast, bacon and coffee." My response: "But no eggs?"

Now, I meant this comment very innocuously and just for clarification; didn't care if he'd made eggs or not, just wanted to know if I'd need to make them if I wanted them. His interpretation was one of me not appreciating what he HAD done and pointing out what he HADN'T done. I can see how he could interpret my comment that way.

His response (snarky tone): "No, there's no eggs."

My internal response to that is to get my defenses up too. He's talking to me in a disrespectful, passive aggressive way. He's not hearing my question. He's focusing on what I didn't say, not what I did say (or meant). He's attacking me.

My external response: "Don't talk to me like that. I just asked you if there were eggs."

He has several responses to choose from, but usually (and this time) he picks the most frustrating one: "Whatever."

Now I feel even more dissed, so I have to engage in a fight about it so I can communicate the injustice of it all.

That further alienates him, but we go a few rounds anyway. He says, "I don't want to be in a R with someone who says 'But no eggs?'", and I say, "Well that's why we have to work on it." He says, "I don't have to work on anything with you."

I did end the conversation by saying, "Thank you for making breakfast. If you don't like my behavior, please just ask me to change it." He does NOT apologize for his snarkiness (and rarely does, big big issue for me).

That pretty much ended it because I said it 3 times and then walked away, and I wouldn't let him engage any further.

I think I need to focus on identifying the moments in which he's being attacking and letting the arrows go by instead of slinging back. That is hard but I think it will be a good practice for me.

[longrun]

That is a good analysis. Recognizing these situations in the moment they occur will be the next step - and it would be great if you managed to escape from the escalation. It's a very tough task but it's worthwhile pursuing. Congrats on your perseverance.