Walking the path to my own happiness

[Wendylon]

You do sound very calm and rational, Regretful.

I'm sure you'll figure out how best to deal with the finances. You come across as someone who is pretty grounded and on top of things.

I like your GAL activities.

Keep going. One way or another you'll end up back in your bedroom before too long at this rate!

[dorightman]

Regretful, no offense, but you're starting to sound like a waw. I don't say that with any judgement. It seems like the tables are turning. I think this may be a common occurrence in relationships.

[mamabird]

None taken. I feel like a WAW. I am totally open to R if H ever changed his mind, but I refuse to grow old waiting for that day to come.

[mamabird]

Wendy, I'll be back in my bedroom next week when H has a business trip! Then at end of Jan he'll and in London and then, lucky him, over to Italy. I am trying to look at it as more time in my bed!

[mamabird]

I meant he'll BE in London...

[mamabird]

Interesting turn of events this evening. FIL was here and he and H were planning their Italy trip. After dinner we sat around the table and talked for a while. FIL told H to take better care of himself (get on blood pressure medication).

H is going to be gone for 2 weeks and I was a little pouty about it. We didn't really get in an argument but it led to a very long R talk. We're finally at the point where we can have a conversation, express feelings and arrive at a conclusion. We could not do that before. So that's good.

Interesting R talk, complete with diagrams this time. My argument is the same as most WAW (even though I am not the WAW I am the offender): "My emotional needs were not being met and I was so screwed up that I couldn't understand it or express it to you." H finally made his argument in a way that I could understand/agree with: "I expressly asked you not to do something that was very hurtful and you went ahead and did it anyway." This was regarding my R with OM1. H has been saying "You cheated on me twice" (now he vehemently denies ever saying that), so maybe he will stop saying that now.

Anyway, we got to this point where I could finally kind of understand where he was coming from. He says that I have not shown enough remorse. I asked him what would be an example of showing remorse... well he thinks I don't go along with his plan enough, example, staying with that crappy therapist. He read that in After the Affair - that the offending spouse should basically do whatever the hurt spouse wants. In my M that would just be more opportunity for him to exercise control vs the trust building effect that that behavior is supposed to have, with no guarantees of anything. If he would say, "I'm trying to trust you and I need you to do X" then I would. But he's just trying to get his way, with a justification now.

He said I should be focusing on the impact of my behavior, not the cause of my behavior. While I agree with him in principle on this, I can't agree in practice because then I'd live in the land of guilt and self-flaggellation - not where I want to live.

He said something interesting - that it was a character issue essentially to stop DB'ing. Those weren't his words, obviously, but he thinks I ought to keep trying even though he's explicitly said "I'm done." He did use the words "character issue." He said I SHOULDN'T be blowing him off or turning the other way. I don't know. Thoughts? Because when I was all lovey dovey, that didn't change things either. He said, "When we went to therapy, you didn't say 'I love you so much and I want to make this work.'" (I actually did say that right after BD but he doesn't remember.) I am not sure that would have made a difference.

During our argument about his Italy trip, I said 2 weeks was a long time to take care of the boys by myself, but that it didn't matter, I was going to have to deal with it because "soon he would be gone permanently." He got so mad about that. He said it was mean and then cited it as evidence that I haven't changed.

I'm confused. He still says "he's done" and it certainly feels like he is done. But something tells me that he isn't done. Like, he wants to continue to go to therapy and his reason for going changes constantly. He hasn't moved out and continues to work on improving the house (hired a handyman today to put on 2 doorknobs - waited a YEAR for that). Every time I bring up something I wasn't happy about in the R he says, "So then it's a mutual breakup."

We do really need more MC but I still think separation is the best thing for our R right now. We are at a standstill. He says that my dishonest behavior (and he doesn't even know the extent of it, that I stayed friends with OM1) is a dealbreaker. I can't fault him for that - it is the truth, I was deceitful towards him. I think that's more hurtful to him than anything else but I don't know how to fix that.

[Breakdown]

That is really really good that you can have those kind of conversations now. I think they are "healing" for both of you and I think it shows a lot of growth in you that you are able to really see his point of view.

All in all, it sounds to me like he wants you to fight for him and I don't think it's all that unreasonable. But, at some point I think you have to ask the question "what about you?"

I know I've mentioned it before, but did you do anything with the languages of apology or consider apologizing in a way that puts it to rest (for you)? Looking back, I honestly think that was the turning point for me and my W.

[mamabird]

Ugh. Last night I dreamt about H for the first time in months. I tend to take dreams seriously. He came to me in my dream and said, "I still love you" and gave me a big hug.

I would say that he probably does still love me but can't see a way over the hump, the glob of crap that's occurred over the last few years. This is what my IC thinks, anyway, and it seems to make sense based on our conversations.

Our conversation last night has left me with a deep sense of guilt and shame. I am sure that H wants me to feel that, btw, because it gives him power. I've realized that there has been a huge power struggle in our M and the way he gains power is to withhold and punish. Then I become docile because I react to the stonewalling. It is a horrible dynamic.

I suppose I should feel guilt and shame for disrespecting H, but I think the fact that he refuses to let go is the most distressing for me. He feels justified in holding on to it. As I mentioned, he did read After the Affair but what he gleans from these books is "I'm justified in holding on to my feelings for as long as I want and now you need to do whatever I say if you want to atone." Sorry, that's BS, it just is. I could walk around kissing his a$$ for years and nothing would change. That's just who he is.

He also said that I never expressed my feelings of not being emotionally fulfilled. I explained that I was not in a position to do that, that every time I tried to he shut me down, so I shut down too. I am sure that my choices with OM2 had a "revenge" element to them. Clearly not nice but H still doesn't see how hurtful and damaging his behavior was to me - it just becomes a character issue to him. As if I made my choices in a vaccuum.

Let's say that I had expressed those feelings, before BD. H had been telling me for 6 months (way before OM2) "I'm just going to D you eventually" so would it have made a difference by then? I think H was already checked out and OM2 was the nail in the coffin for him - the good excuse that made it ok for him to walk away.

I was feeling so strong before this conversation. They do not lead to change in the R, which is why I hate having these conversations. I feel like they are unproductive and only stir up guilt and bad feelings. They certainly do not leave me in a space where I am inspired to put any effort into saving the M. They make me want to walk away, because I can't see that there's any hope at all. As we've discussed here, that does not mean closing the door and locking it. He's closed the door and locked it, and it's up to him to unlock it, if he wants to, but I don't see how I could ever be the person he wants me to be without giving up a lot of myself in the process... and that is the opposite of the ideal of marriage.

I need to schedule a call with my coach, but in the meantime, what am I missing here?

[mamabird]

We cross posted, Breakdown.

All in all, it sounds to me like he wants you to fight for him and I don't think it's all that unreasonable. But, at some point I think you have to ask the question "what about you?"

RIGHT. This is exactly what I am struggling with. I want to keep trying, but there is no "me" in the equation. He feels justified in saying, "Your punishment/path to atonement is that you need to do whatever I want." Well, at least I have the emotional strength now to realize how controlling and disrespectful that is. I am not, and will not be a martyr!!

When all of this started, and I'm not sure I've mentioned this before, H INSISTED that I go to a psychiatrist to get a full work up... he said he would only take me back if I was mentally ill. He called me a psychopath, a narcissist. I never did go to a psychiatrist because even back then I eventually saw how controlling and unloving that was. (plus my IC did not recommend it). But I did consider it at the time which shows just how unstable I was - to let someone else influence me to that degree.

I do want to fight for him but he doesn't soften at all and I can't be that vulnerable anymore.

I know I've mentioned it before, but did you do anything with the languages of apology or consider apologizing in a way that puts it to rest (for you)? Looking back, I honestly think that was the turning point for me and my W.

That is a good reminder. I have the book on my kindle but never finished it. I'll need to pick that back up and work on it.

We are going to a new MC in a few weeks, one who supposedly "has balls". My focus is going to be coparenting now, and we'll see what other issues surface in a less emotionally charged environment.

[Breakdown]

To me, the big thing here is that he's opening up a bit and talking to you about it. Actually voicing his feelings is difficult (I would venture good feelings as well as bad).

Maybe instead of thinking "I don't want to save this M" you change gears to "I want to successfully co-parent." Maybe that is a line of discussion you can have with H to make the current sitch a little bit better. I know thinking about my kids really helped me with that. For the sons, how we treat our W is how they think they are supposed to treat theirs. When they see us disrespect each other, they believe that it's ok to behave that way.

Honestly, every time that he acts out at you, it's him showing that he's hurt. It sounds like you may be at a point where you can address this with him....acknowledge his hurt but maybe let him know he can simply tell you, "I hurt" instead of acting out. Show him compassion without piling guilt on yourself.

With that said, I have to ask, have you forgiven yourself?