ILYBINILWY

[FloydMan]

Hi CV,
Well it is a tough one, but H has to be the one to do something about it from a health/physical sense. No wonder he is tired all the time as he is not sleeping properly. This also causes stress and greater risk of heart disease and stroke. However, you ask what ‘you’ can do and it should be from a healthy influence and caring stance rather than a demanding and guilt driven command. The first step is realizing and understanding that is a health problem and not his fault. Do not blame him. It is inconveniencing you, but also him too unwittingly. Making him feel bad about it or guilty about it will only get him defensive and feeling down even more thus becoming passive about it and procrastinates. We all know how that works both ways in all things in an R. For yourself, you can also take sleeping pills prescribed by your doctor or over-the-counter remedies. This will get you a much better sleep too, snoring or no snoring. Definitely the tension and stress is accentuated by the fatigue and sleep deprivation. You will both think more clearly and address communication issues more rationally. So, talk to him from a health and concern standpoint both for him, you and the relationship. Not blaming or that it affects you so much even though it does, it must be tackled with sensitivity.
Regarding the lying, well that is a whole other ballgame and should not be accepted. I am so with you on that. I was told in my situation that it is a defense mechanism as W is afraid of the reaction of anything negative so they cover it up. Think about how you respond to when he does tell you something truthful but you don’t like it. He may be avoiding that response. This is also learned behaviour. There were also studies that show people that have issues with lying were often as children disciplined harshly and therefore result to covering the truths if they are negative. This will tie into how you respond when he tells you something that you are angry with, disagree with or do not like to hear. Let him feel comfortable with telling you how it is and respond in kind and not negatively. Do not get me wrong, there is no excuse for this behaviour but this is a way in which he can be comfortable with something you may have a differing opinion of. He will need to learn in the hard way that the lying brings worse consequences than when he is up front. So give a kinder reaction when telling the truth and thank him, and negative consequences when lying. When he tells the truth and you don’t like the truth, do not create an argument out of it. Discuss it lovingly and come to a compromise and solution or politely agree to disagree especially if it is a minor thing in the grander scheme of things. This would take a long time to build, especially the trust side for both of you and a 3rd party professional should be involved. I don’t like ultimatums but if it came to that then he would hopefully see. Don’t do this though until you have had professional consultation on how you would do this and present it.
Regarding the conversation, it is okay to start slow with superficial things and start from there. He clearly is afraid of what it might lead to confrontation-wise so he avoids it. Just start slow and if it begins to sway toward an uncomfortable point bring it back to comfortable level. Remember, pushing or pursuing drives the other away. Start slow and make it comfortable. Again, this will take a while for him to build that confidence. You can control the situation. Neither of you are dogs, I was only responding metaphorically. He likes you, he loves you and he is comfortable with you. That is a good thing! Bring it to the next level without him feeling pressured or defensive. Keep it light and fun, nothing serious.
I disagree with the better drinks and company at Starbuck’s plus the money spent as you say that you are concerned about money. Why not buy their coffee/beans in bulk, get an espresso maker and make lattes together or cappuccinos or whatever you drink from there and make it fun at home? You can make better drinks and have fun with it. Or other types of treats. It will open conversation. Make special desserts for the 3 of you and get them to help and join in or contribute to the creations you can come up with. The people at Starbucks are in the end strangers in their own world, not family. Don’t make the mistake of creating the comparison, though I know it feels like it. If you need to GAL, going out for one is fine too or out with a friend or two for one. I agree that all of you with headphones on disengaged is not fun and should be brought to change. Create a better alternative. This is where you can affect the change. Again, it is not an instant change that will happen. It takes time. This world is so full of instant gratification. That is how our society, especially us North American and the rest of the western world have been conditioned.

[Crazyville]

Gosh, thanks FM. I'm going to try to work this out with you, if you don't mind. Of course, there is the CV factor to consider in all of this, and the progress I've made on myself that I don't want to lose, that being primarily an issue of setting and keeping boundaries. There's also the reality factor in my sitch, like in your sitch where your W is the one to shut down in conversation. Some things just wouldn't work with H, such as sitting him down and telling him how I feel, so I have to incorporate that reality.

First, I don't "blame" him. I know he doesn't do it on purpose, and I know it disrupts his sleep too. This is not new, it's been going on for our whole M, though I believe it has worsened in the later years. I used to nudge him awake and tell him to roll over, or make a joke of it, so then he didn't take me serious. He just denied that he snored. I've talked to him about the health ramifications, to which I get, "I understand," which is his way of shutting down. I'm afraid that anything I approach him with that suggests a change in his behavior, he takes as criticism, aka confrontation, and he shuts down. The doctor has talked to him about it too, so I'm not taking it personally.

Also, a while back when this was discussed on here, it was suggested that it would be a healthy boundary for me if I said that I would be willing to sleep in the same bed with him if he wore his CPAP (or dealt with his snoring any other way.) But otherwise, I would sleep in the other BR. But the way you're reflecting on it, you make it sound like that's a bad thing, saying my approach is blaming, demanding, and guilt driven. I don't understand how I'm punishing him, just because he doesn't get what he wants over what I want.

For me, my taking prescriptions is not something I care to consider. I have no problem sleeping. Not as well as I used to when I was younger, but still no problem. I'm not going to drug myself in order to please H.

The really funny part of this is that H refuses to let S12 sleep next to him because S12 snores too. And H manages to deal with the CPAP when he's camping with the boy scouts because he doesn't want to disturb the other dads that are in the other tents. So he seems to be aware and sensitive to it, just not with me.

So with regards to the lying.... I'm not sure how to respond positively to something I don't like, just so H doesn't feel a need to lie about it.
H: "CV, I didn't want to lie to you, so I'm going to let you know that I've contacted my college sweetheart, and she and I are exchanging emails. It's wonderful to reminisce and fantasize with her."
CV: "Gosh, H, I appreciate you being honest with me. Perhaps we could invite her over for dinner or a threesome sometime."
Nope, can't see me doing that. Not even sure what that would look like. To H, my saying, "I don't want you to do that" would equate to a negative response from me, because him not getting what to do what he wants is bad.

And what exactly would be an appropriate negative consequences when he's lying? I see posted all the time that it's not our job to teach our spouses a lesson. Or to shame them. Or to punish them.

H doesn't acknowledge his issue of lying. If you were to bring it up to him, he would tell you that's in the past. But he's said that for 18 years. He wouldn't be open to any sort of discussion or counseling or ultimatum because he doesn't acknowledge it as a current problem. It's not a weekly occurrence, and I don't usually find out about it until some time later, so it would be really difficult to pin him down. Even then, he would just promise not to do it again.

Regarding conversation, what good would it do for me to initiate have superficial conversation with him? He does that with me fairly freely. He'll tell me about a joke he delivered at work, or that he learned that his boss's W has MS, or share a news article he heard on the radio on the way home. Fine. Great. Doesn't exactly make me want to have sex with him. Doesn't make me look forward to seeing him. Zero emotional bonding whatsoever. So since I ultimately need a deeper level, isn't that kind of a bait-n-switch? He might get comfortable, but then the minute I do introduce something deeper, like a feeling thought, he'll still shut down again.

[Crazyville]

LIS, I hope you're doing okay today. You've been awfully quiet. Hopefully you're just busy packing. Take care and have a safe trip! I'll be praying for you.

[Crazyville]

Okay, today has been a real epiphany for me. It's not an entirely new thought, but the 2x4's have been coming hard and fast.

After mulling over FM's suggestions and my response, and feeling an awkward uncomfortableness about the discussion, I had this image in my head that I'm an athlete and I'm trying to figure out how to jog again after a debilitating accident. I know my legs were injured, but I keep thinking that I'm good enough, I'm strong enough, I'm determined enough that I will jog again. Other athletes pick themselves up and go at it again. I just need to figure out how. I just need to work at it harder. I need to focus more, train better.

But what I have failed to realize up to this point is that my legs aren't injured, they're missing! I do not possess one of the most basic elements needed to be able to run. So no matter how much I focus on every other muscle in my body, I still will not succeed. I will not run. (Ignore the whole prosthetic option cause that just doesn't work in my analogy. )

So applying this to real life, I realize that I'm not going to be able to make my M what I want it to be, because I simply do not trust H. That's it. Bottom line. He has lied to me too many times. He has betrayed me too many times. I can't trust him to do what he commits to. I can't trust him to stand by me in life's challenges. I can't trust him to protect me. I can't trust him to be faithful. I can't trust him with the finances. I can't trust him with my heart.

These are the things that he has taken away from me with his choices. And these are fundamental requirements for M. Forget the daily minutia like basic courtesy, and inconveniences like snoring. It's not going to do anything to address the fact that I don't trust him, especially when I'm doing all the work changing my behavior and he's not.

It's why I imagine life without him being so much better, so peaceful -- because I trust "me," but I don't trust him. Every day with him is like living in an enemy camp. I've been trying to make myself trust him, to be vulnerable again, but he simply isn't trustworthy and my heart knows better. I've always known that honesty and trust was a huge issue for me. So did H.

Yet here we are. I just don't think I have it in me to get past it. I don't even know if I should try.

[Crazyville]

I think it's also why I've focused so much on wanting to change his behavior, because it's the only way I could begin to rebuild my trust in him -- if he first proved himself to be trustworthy.

[FloydMan]

Trust is key...no doubt. It destroyed us. Ironically she does not trust me. Wtf?

[Soul.Searching]

It's sad and unfortunate but I hear you CV.
For me, I kept telling myself that it was only the little petty things he lied about. That he wouldn't lie to me about the bigger things, that really mattered.
Then after BD,..., I found out that he did....He hid it well too.

I just don't understand how they can not see what they are doing.

[FloydMan]

Gotta care to see I guess and not be so self absorbed.

[lostinscared]

Hi CV,

Sorry I've been quiet. Not the best conversationalist at the moment. At the risk of sounding condescending but hoping you understand the respect that I feel for you, I am so proud of you! It was probably hard to come to some of these realizations. I don't know how you get beyond the trust issues. Frankly, I'm not sure I would have ever gotten beyond the fact my H was with someone else. Perhaps that's a weakness in me, I don't know.

D day. Getting ready to go in a couple of hours. Sort of like having my heart cut out with a butter knife. Talk to you on the other side.

Please know I am praying for you.

LIS

[Crazyville]

LIS, I'll be thinking about you and praying for you all day! Have a safe trip!