Hi CV, sorry it took awhile to respond. There was a period of time between Sept 2010 and Feb 2011 when H was in and out of the house. I never really started recovering until the final separation happened. I was doing all of those things, but wasn’t really starting to get grounded until the break happened. I have no idea why he came back and I don’t know if any of us will ever know. But I was a very different person from when he left. There is no arguing that.
Yes, I was married briefly when I was young. That one was very easy to walk away from, sadly. He was a good person but I had fallen into bad patterns that I had all my life. Our fights were marked by a lot of verbal abuse and nastiness. He never seemed to like me much and always seemed to have something to say. I was fat, my hair was ugly, my clothes were ugly, I didn’t do this or that right. One day I just got tired of it. One day I just said enough. I have a habit with people to be a chameleon. I can be whatever you want me to be. Classic people pleasing behavior. I curbed that with my exH, but I’m not sure it ever went away. Well, according to therapist, it never did.
His kids hurt you? It sounds like they did. You are tough but you seem to get tougher when the vulnerabilities are exposed. Were you always so convicted that they weren’t your children or did that conviction occur after a time? I see that you felt they took advantage, but is that the whole story? Were you hurt because they didn’t respect you or were you hurt because he didn’t defend you or both? You said that you would do anything for your son. I think every parent on here would say the same thing. He’s got the same thinking. He would do anything for his children. Unfortunately, you got hurt in the middle of that. If you moved onto your next R and your son was doing something your next H didn’t like, what do you think would happen? I guarantee you that you have it right that your H feels some sort of guilt in regards to his children. I watch it with my mom now. Growing up, things were much different with my parents with all of the kids (there are 4 of us by my mom). She married an alcoholic who allowed an incredibly bad environment for all involved. So bad that child services had removed several of us. In addition, her relationship with her kids was very bad. She eventually found God and did all she could to mend that as we were adults. I’ve seen several of my siblings take advantage of it. I get upset with her sometimes but she can’t seem to help herself.
What was the breakdown of your H’s marriage about? What happened there?
You said that you thought a good compromise was he did what he wanted and you check out. You can agree with me why he wouldn’t think that was a good compromise. I mean that’s how he’s compromised with his marriage, isn’t it? You go off and do your own things and he’s taken no interest. But you have stated that there is emptiness in that for you. I’m sure he feels the same way. Right, wrong or indifferent, it appears that compromise that you have offered to him has brought equal emptiness.
Again, I’m not here to encourage you to leave. I am more than willing to sit here forever and talk to you about whatever you want including fixing things with your M. This question is just as much for me as it is for you. But, do you think that some people are so different in their goals in life that there comes a time where there is no acceptable compromise and it’s time to part ways? I was taught in DB that if you once found a connection and got married, you can find it again. But do you think that’s always true or does there does come a time that there is no finding that common bond anymore? I see a lot of advice about changing ourselves. Sometimes and in some ways that advice is necessary. However, there are some changes that are not palpable to people or not even possible. For instance, if my H wanted children suddenly, I could not deliver on that. I can’t have children. Now some could come to me and say you could adopt. And maybe I could. But the idea of going through the horrible process of possibly losing more children is something I couldn’t do. Others could. What’s acceptable for one, just isn’t for others. I don’t know. My mind is all over the place.
Does that feeling of being grounded still resonate with you at all? Is it something that was good enough to have any draw for you still? I'm not even saying it has to be outside of your M, but can you see any way to recreate that?
I can see why you would have walked away from your first M if it was that abusive. I'm curious as to your ability to do it then, whereas fear seems to have an over-powering grip on you now? Maybe because it's because this M is just empty rather than abusive, and maybe that's easier to take? I don't know, because I really don't have much experience with D, thankfully. But in watching H's ex, it seemed like after her first D, it just got easier and easier for her (she was M'd/D'd 3 times). I'm not suggesting that's a good thing to be experienced in, but I can see where it would give someone the confidence that they'll get through it and be alright on their own. They know the D process, they have some experience under their belt, etc. I guess I just feel so bad for you and the fear you mention about a lot of things. Fear leads into so many other emotions and makes them all so much worse. It's the difference between night and day -- things are scary in the dark and seem utterly ridiculous in the light of day (for me anyway.)
His kids hurt me, yes, but I blame it as much on their parents as anything. I came into the M with the highest ideals of what a wonderful family we would make. Their mother was rather deficient as a parent, very cold and uninvested, and I hoped to fill the void she left in them. But she was such a bitter and jealous person, that she fed the kids a daily dose of bitterness and self-pity, blaming all her problems on H and me. The kids were too young/gullible to rationalize through it, and eventually jumped on the bandwagon with her. Being the stepmother, I became everyone's target, even H's. There are several books that I've read since on step-parenting that, if I had read them before I got M'd, would have caused me not to M H in the first place. But that's a topic for another board. My problems weren't unique, in fact quite typical. I just wasn't prepared. And as I said, I have a good R with 3 of the 4 now, but it's just friendly rather than close.
I agree, most parents would say the same thing -- that they would do anything for their children. Unfortunately, sometimes that manifests itself in things like a mother having anohter student killed because she's competing with her daughter in cheerleading and it looks like her daughter might lose to her. So I guess I would clarify my statement to say that I would do what I believe is best for my S12, but not "anything." And tossing out my own moral compass is not one of them. I mean, really, it was not a life-threatening event that made my H offer to let his daughter drive my car, and if he felt it was an alright thing to do, then why did he hide it? No, I can't ever imagine myself doing the things he has done, not even "for the sake of my S12." H did as much damage to his daughters in the M lesson he taught them that day as he did to me.
I really can't speak much for their M. I didn't know them then, only knew H through work. H presented that it was all her, but knowing him as I do, I'm quite certain that wasn't the case. But for whatever reason, she had an affair and D'd H.
Compromise is definitely needed in M. The definition of compromise is two people each giving up something so that each can get something, or specifically from the dictionary, "something intermediate between different things." I'm very aware of this and usually factor in my "offer of compromise" before I even ask for something. But this doesn't work with us. It's why I've had to focus so much on boundary-setting, because I would let H just bowl right over me. I may seem tough now, but I wasn't always. So for example, H snores and it makes me not sleep well. I moved to the other bedroom. H wanted me back in bed with him, so I said I would if he wore his CPAP, and he agreed that he would. He did for a night or two, then I noticed he's not wearing it, "because it's uncomfortable." So much for compromise. It comes across to me that it's perfectly fine for him that *I* be uncomfortable because I can't sleep with his snoring, but he shouldn't have to be uncomfortable, either with me sleeping elsewhere or his wearing his CPAP.
More specifically to his kids. Last Christmas was a big blowout for us. His kids normally come over Christmas eve. A little history first.... we always got second billing for any holiday/event. Their mother would put up a big stink if she didn't get prime time, regardless of what the custody schedule said. So we *never* have gotten Christmas Day. Fine. But with the intent of having *some* sort of tradition established, I'm pretty possessive of Christmas Eve, and only Christmas Eve. My extended family comes over then, too, so it's a pretty big affair. Well last year, there was going to be some possible scheduling conflict. I get this, as the kids get older and BF/spouses are added, things will need to change. But I figure it's reasonable to think it will need to change for *everybody*, which includes their mother. So I suggested that if they couldn't manage Christmas eve, then perhaps they could eek out an hour or two on Christmas Day, and cut their 10-hour day short at their mother's gathering. Well they didn't want to do that. I felt insulted. I think their father should have felt insulted, too, but I've let go of that. He didn't, or is simply used to it, and was willing to have them over the day after Christmas. I wasn't. By that time, I'm tired, I'm Christmas'd out, and the last thing I want to do was cook/host another gathering, simply because they couldn't be put out enough to alter their schedule, even a little. So I told H he was more than welcome to see them, that I would not participate. I would have been willing to host them Christmas Eve, or to incorporate something into the plans for Christmas Day, but not on yet another day. I'm tired by then. H found that unacceptable. He spent zero effort negotiating with them the reasonableness of cutting an hour or two out of Christmas Day, but loads of time telling me how unreasonable I was for not accommodating their schedule. What exactly was H compromising on my behalf?
I'm not suggesting that I check out in everything. I'm suggesting that I check out when he and I can't agree on something regarding his children, which is a lot unfortunately. Since he isn't willing to compromise anything in consideration of my needs, I'm not sure what the alternative is. Our counselors over the years have really chewed him up for his behavior in these issues, but nothing has changed and I have no reason to expect them to. So the solution is simply what can be, as opposed to what should be.
Can you find the connection again? I think some people can definitely do that. If they were genuine when they first met, so that the connection was real, I believe that can be rebuilt. Sometimes life just interferes with that, like business of jobs, children, aging parents, etc. If that can be cleared away and the old connection can be exposed again, then I think it definitely can be.
But if the connection was unhealthy/unreal in the first place, or the connection is broken because of betrayal or infidelity, I think oftentimes it can't be. I'm sure it varies from person to person, but those are my thoughts anyway, based primarily upon my perspective and my sitch I'm sure. Throw on top of that the fact that both people need to want to get there and oftentimes it's only one, the odds keep plummeting. I'm probably not the one to ask this question. I've definitely got a half-full attitude about it. Unfortunately, if it can be done, I don't know how. I'm still looking, just less passionately than I used to.
And I so appreciate the talk, too! I feel much less beat up by you than I was feeling before. And it's a win-win if we can both glean something out of the exchange. I'll answer whatever q's you have, just please don't think I'm whining.
CV, I guess I look at these things differently. Call it whining or whatever you want. People have stuff in them that must come out. Tamping down feelings causes more damage in the long run. Feelings are never wrong. Perhaps perspective needs to change sometimes, but I don't think it does unless we are allowed to flush our feelings. Remember on DB how we are taught that we don't need to agree with our spewing S's but we do need to acknowledge their feelings? I need someone to acknowledge mine and it looks like you need the same thing. Give me time on the other post. I need to read through several more times.
I guess I’ve always known I’m not going to feel grounded unless I get out of the toxic situation. I want him to love me enough to stop drinking. Al Anon teaches that it isn’t about us. But I’ve told you my controlling nature. I could change this. I could fix it. Only I couldn’t. Anyway, I have booked my one way ticket home. It tore my heart out yesterday and that’s why I went quiet. I have a few close friends and wonderful family that has been walking me through this all week. But it hurts. Worse than anything I could have ever imagined. It feels worse than when he left.
Would you want a close relationship with his children? Those books and studies about step parenting are real nice and all… all very intellectual. Not sure it helps us with our raw feelings and emotions.
You talk about you not enabling your son to do anything that is morally bad. I get the impression that you think you think your H enabled his children to do morally bad. Do you think that he has done something on that level? I’m not sure about the car, though. I mean you don’t agree with one another on that, but morally bad? No, probably not. I think that incident bothered you more from the standpoint that he chose his children over you. Not that you’re wrong there, but I’m trying to understand where your differences are in the actual parenting of your stepchildren.
“I'm not suggesting that I check out in everything. I'm suggesting that I check out when he and I can't agree on something regarding his children, which is a lot unfortunately.”
^^This. “Which is a lot unfortunately.” I mean it sounds to me like the more you both compromise, the more you both alienate yourselves from one another. Would you agree? He’s set in his ways. You are set in your ways. So you have compromised to continue to cut one another out more and more. I want to be quite careful in my wording here as I don’t want to sound like anyone is wrong or anyone is right but trying to get the lay of the land.
Gosh, LIS, my heart breaks for you! I can tell how hard this is for you! At the same time, I can't help but think it's the best thing for you. It's wonderful that you have your family backing and supporting you. And it would be absolutely wonderful if your H quit drinking for you, but I don't think it works that way. Again, I have only limited knowledge, but I think it has to be something that they decide for themselves, and not for anyone else. It's also possible that your leaving will be the final straw that brings him to his knees. But overall, I know this isn't about you, either good or bad. Alcoholism is definitely an internal problem, one that unfortunately affects everyone around the alcoholic. You didn't fail anything, because it was never in your power to control. You might as well attempt to re-align the solar system while you're at it. But still, I'm soooo sorry.
I'll still be here if I can help in any way. (((LIS)))
re: his kids, it doesn't matter if I would like a better R with them, their mother would never allow it. I wing it strictly by their design. I don't initiate anything because it would make their mother look bad. The only reason I get by with Christmas eve is that my extended family comes, too. If she felt I was doing it just for the kids, she would interfere somehow.
Driving the car wasn't morally bad. Legally, yes, because she wasn't licensed. The bigger issue I have is that he hid what he did, which means he knows I would have been upset, and conspired with his daughters to hide it from me. He basically "outed" me. He taught his daughters very early on that he would be happy to do something against my wishes on their behalf. And trust me when I say that they learned it well. I only found out about the incident a year and a half later when one of them blabbed it in support of her argument that their father loved them more than me and so I should leave.
Your perspective on the compromise is intriguing. I hope you'll let me dig into that a bit more, because it seems you see it differently than I do and I'd love to understand another perspective. I see us pulling apart because neither of us are willing to compromise. But you said that our compromise has resulted in us cutting each other out. I'm really curious as to how my H has compromised? I've given several examples of issues throughout my posts, but could throw out some more if needed. I've gotten to this point because I've always been the one to give in because H wouldn't compromise. He still has the option of meeting me where I'm at, but he opts not to.
Thanks, CV, I appreciate the support. I am very lucky with my family and friends. But sometimes the grief is so much that you become so focused on what you don't have that what you do have doesn't seem to help. I don't know. Feeling very sorry for myself.
The bitter exW... so cliche. She left and she's bitter. That's sort of funny. I don't get people sometimes. So, they encourage the lying and break the bond between H and W. That's the issue? It's not so much about his decisions about how to parent them but more about the fact that he consistently makes choices concerning them that belittles your place in his life?
Well, I understand that his version of compromise is not the "classic" definition and certainly not yours. But by burying his head in the sand, refusing to argue about it and try to change his mind, he's compromising in his own way. That seems to alienate you. You have decided to not participate if you don't agree which you said is quite often so that alienates him. I'm not criticizing you for checking out because I understand (all too well) what you are saying that you felt like you were always the one who would cave. But that's not the dynamic anymore, is it? You say he has the option of meeting you where you are at, he's refused to. You could meet him where he's at (albeit not a very compromising position), but you are holding the line. It's sort of like a standoff right now. And I'm trying real hard to not be judgmental and understanding, but the therapist suggesting he has a 15 minute time limit on talks isn't helping much.
