When tapestries of life get tangled in the loom.

[25yearsmlc]

Bonsoir everyone,
One more question : after I've had my son for myself for two hours, should I tell her how it went, what we did or what S ate?


No, not unless she asks.

If & when she does ask, answer politely, even warmly, but don't belabor the point. Be brief, upbeat and end the conversation first.

Again, ONLY do this IF she asks questions first, and then just answer the questions. Do not add things or bring up another topic or delay or prolong the conversation...Period.

Or should I write that in an email right after the visit? Or not say anything at all, to keep the secrecy between father and S, and make her wonder?

Volunteer nothing.

But that's NOT b/c You are "keeping the secrecy between father and son"...

You are not "hiding" anything. You are just spending your time with your son...
and
You are only sharing about that time, with people who care enough to ask you about it.


I'm asking because yesterday when I brought S back after my unsupervised time with him, I rang her doorbell, she opened the door, took him, barely asked if everything was ok to which I said yes, said bye and almost closed the door on my nose.


So, in sum, she asked a general question, which you answered... Okay...that is not rude. Yes she was "curt" with you. & I know Your feelings are hurt - but if you can be objective for a minute, you can see that she's just protecting herself.

It sounds as if she's trying to keep things all "business" and for now, & in the middle of proceedings, that makes sense.

She's not interested in being your friend right now.

She's in an adversarial legal relationship with you, or that's how she sees it.

You are trying to build a cooperative co-parenting relationship with her. There's a difference between the two but

you have to understand why she's got her point of view at the moment.

Don't judge her opinion. Just empathize.

***She fears you want to take her son. She does not trust that you won't hurt her again & she does not trust that your son is a priority to you...so she fears you having him, that much more.

She fears you, and that makes her angry. She's trying to keep calm so she doesn't lose her temper, b/c that does not help her.

You fear she won't reconcile, so you want to prolong all contact. You want to "talk" with her to "show her" what a great guy you've become.

You cannot do that right now. You must respect her wishes & be "business like" and only speak to her about your son.

You know she's interested in his welfare, and that is all you two have in common, for now.

In time, if she's given the space and respect by you that she needs/wants,

I think good memories will begin to resurface in her. You were once very much in love, right?

Surely you two were happy some of the time after the baby, weren't you?

is the baby's birth when your relationship changed?

If so, that won't bode well for you.

You must do your best to be on the same parenting team as she is,

as if your son is the most important person in your life.

B/C he IS the most important person in HER life,

and it'd be a good thing for you two to see him the same way, even if you have minor differences in how you want to raise him. All parents have differences in approach...

But Most parents who divorce, still know down deep, that the other parent DOES care greatly, about the children.

Most know their former spouses would kill or die for their kids - and even when they are not at all friendly w/each other, they'll call the other parent the second a child is sick or injured.

They can hate each other, BUT know that there is at least one other person in the world who truly loves their child as they do...

You need to get to the place where she believes you truly care deeply for your son.

That belief will bond you two a lot, and from there, good things can happen.

If she never believes it about you, that's bad news.

For instance, if she always thinks you see little Bruce as a fun project of sorts but an inconvenient one,

or as a little person who is to be handed off to someone else

anytime he's too much for you, or gets difficult or sick or just isn't "fun" (is in a "bad humor")

then it won't go your way.

You want to avoid sounding like you did when you complained on another thread,

about your fears of starting to date OWs while being saddled by the hassle of fatherhood. You complained that OWs would not be interested in a "34 y/o man with a child"....like your son is a big drag on your future social life, instead of being the greatest thing you'll ever do...

if that comes out, then you'll never be seen as a great parent.

You'll be seen as a man who resents the "burden" of fatherhood -

who was jealous of his own child, and who forced his wife to choose between a helpless infant and a grown man. That's NOT who you want to be, I know.

But at times, it is how you sounded. So be aware of that.

Bruce fwiw, except for the part about dating, I told Crimson very similar things about a year ago. And look at him now.

He's done a 180 in his life and his whole outlook about fathering and life, is very different than it was a year or so ago.

Read his old threads. Hes' the only man who had not changed a diaper other than you....and now, I think he's truly a great father. HE'S INTO IT!

His ex wife notices it, a lot.

No matter what else happens to them as a couple, he is a better man for this. He admits that.
Read Crimson's posts to you as the gift of gold, that they are.

--> Maybe I've shown distance and withdrawal instead of "detachment" and that's why she responding this way?

Is this normal, beneficial or am I doing something wrong here?

I think this is pretty normal. But It's awkward. They are always awkward at first and some people talk MORE b/c they get nervous...

when there are legal proceedings the lawyers usually say "don't talk" to your spouse much...for fear of getting emotional or losing tempers...

and she's afraid and keeps chatter to a minimum, PLUS she knows you want her back. She does not want your pressure, and that is clear to me. You have pressured her whenever you interacted. You can call it pursuit or "courting" but it's pressure she did not want.

So keep it short. You can email abou the next visit & the logistics. No need for actual talking unless she inititates it. Seriously.

But always be polite and calm. (Losing your temper or being rude to her OR her family, will NOT help you.)

Do not prolong the hand offs or seem like you are trying to get something FROM HER...just transfer him, say something short & polite like "see you next time" and be on your way. NO delays on your end...right?


When will you know about more time with him? Aren't you meeting the judge next week?

At some point I hope you and your wife realize that talking it out would save on legal fees.

she won't realize that if she thinks you'd use the time to manipulate her SO YOU DON'T say that to her b/c that WILL seem like you are trying to control her.

Do you see that? You do not have to agree---but do you see HOW she might see your behavior that way? Can you see why she wants to keep it short for now?



As for the rest of the advice you gave me, I think I understand and am working on it (e.g. being a good dad, being a great guy without trying to show her, stop pursuing like a madman).

Thanks again and
Bonne nuit,
Bruce

Good luck & keep us posted.

[MrBond]

Actually, I would tell her some of the things you did and what you fed son. To a certain degree, I think that would alleviate some of her apprehension about you having him.

What did you do with him anyway? Did you ever learn how to change his diaper?

[ThisDayForward]

25 lost touch with you. Can you join back in on my sitch. Making progress. Slowly.

[Valeska19]

Bruce,
I've been trying to think of what to write to you that's different from all the great advice given here (You really are getting it from some of the best)....

On the one hand I see you typing that you are listening to what we are saying and trying... but on the other hand... I'm not seeing your actions confirming your words.

IMO - your world should be centered around your son..

You admit that you sukked as a dad - Why aren't you asking all of the awesome men on this board what goes into making a great dad?

Why aren't you dying to see him every chance you get?

Why aren't you asking what books to read or who to talk to?

Why does it seem that every interaction with him is used a chess piece for your relationship with your wife?

Bruce,
I am asking these questions sincerely... not maliciously?

because I believe you not stepping up to the plate here is the #1 stumbling block in YOUR LIFE

and honestly - I can't think of a better time to start changing than now. I can't think of a better place to ask for support than here.

I'm not going to tell you what you are feeling or how you should act. I believe people need to figure that out on their own...

.. but please PLEASE look at the questions I underlined. Think about them.. and then as truthfully as you can.. answer them on these boards.

There will be no judging here. No condemning of past actions.

Every child deserves the love of his parent. Every parent deserves the chance to learn how to better love his child.

When are you going to truly make this the priority in your life??

((( )))

[Big Bruce]

Hello,
Writing, just because.

Today was my visit day. I went to pick up my S. W was there to hand him with his bag (that has nappies and juice). I tried to be agreeable and smile, for nothing it seemed, oh well.

So we went a little to the mall, played trucks, read a couple of books, watched the beginning of Chimpanzee. Time was up. It's only two hour visits, total time- rides included.
My interaction time with him is really maybe 1h15.

Since I arrived I pushed for more time with him. Obviously the first month I didn't have a place to live in, or a car, then no furniture or silverware, I slept on the floor, and I was learning my new job, and sorting my papers, and where things were in town.

I also admit that the shock of the separation took its toll on me for a good three-four months : inability to be interested in anything but getting the wife back. Couldn't think of eating, nevermind being a great dad.

Another thing that also prevented me from being super interested in my S in the beginning was the lack of 1. response from him and 2. ran out of things to do with him. It's okay to play at the park for one hour, but the rest of the time ?

When things get settled and I started asking for more time with my S, it was denied over and over again. Now we're in Court for that.

Anyway, I brought S back. W took him, turned her back and walked away. Her dad went to the door and said bye. I threw a "see you next time", turned my heels and walked back to the car.

Not to be stingy, but these visits make me drive 50 kms each time. It's twice a week, and I've been doing that for 6 months. That's more than 2500 kms, and W hasn't budged one inch to make an effort for the exchange. In fact she has opposed my visits, and is currently asking 100% custody, that is 0% for me.

You all understand why I'm less and less interested in W.
Yes, okay I screwed up, been negligent with her emotions and all. But if she is that unforgiving, maybe it's time for me to move on. The first mistake was mine, believing she would be faithful, trusting and marrying her.

If good memories resurface for her, and she wants to resume our relationship, I'd be very cautious.
Things went south indeed when the baby was born. So what?

The hearing is set for the 25th Jan. Maybe that explains her being so cold and "communicateless" to me at the moment.
Either way, after what she's written I don't feel like talking to her anyway. She didn't play it fair, it was all hitting below the belt, meanness of character.
My depositions only clarifies the points she makes and shows that I have a room for the little guy, and that I am fit and willing to be a good father. No stories on her childhood, on her parents or siblings, no lies or exagerations. I'm not proud of it, that's what I expect from anyone a little honest.

I'll keep you posted for how things evolve,
Until then,
Bruce

[MrBond]

"I tried to be agreeable and smile, for nothing it seemed, oh well."

Stop expecting her to have a response.

"Another thing that also prevented me from being super interested in my S in the beginning was the lack of 1. response from him and 2. ran out of things to do with him. It's okay to play at the park for one hour, but the rest of the time ?"

Seriously? Have you read anything that 25 and myself had written about what to do with your son? He's not there to amuse you. You are supposed to be there for him. There are a ton of books on what to do with your child. Even for ones as old as your son. PLUS, it's not important to do something with him. Just BE there with him and spend time together should be enough.

"If good memories resurface for her, and she wants to resume our relationship, I'd be very cautious.
Things went south indeed when the baby was born. So what?"

Again, she doesn't want to go back to your situation because you haven't changed. You keep insisting that you have but your actions speak otherwise. And to be clear, ALL relationships change when a child is born.

"She didn't play it fair, it was all hitting below the belt, meanness of character."

Show us again where she was "hitting below the belt". We all went through this with you but you're not listening. There are parts of truth in the things she wrote. You're just refusing to accept them.

"No stories on her childhood, on her parents or siblings, no lies or exagerations. I'm not proud of it, that's what I expect from anyone a little honest."

Those have no bearing on your son's well-being right now. And from what she wrote, she was being honest.

So what exactly have you learned about your son? When is his next doctor's appointment? Do you know what to do if his eczema or stomach problems come up?

[lionhrt]

"Another thing that also prevented me from being super interested in my S in the beginning was the lack of 1. response from him and 2. ran out of things to do with him. It's okay to play at the park for one hour, but the rest of the time ?"

Sorry bruce but am I really reading this right^^^^. My S has special needs and whilst I don't want to jump on the disability isnt life tough bandwagon my S did not show any response at all for nrly 12 mths, spent a great deal of time in hospital and that did not stop me spending quality time with him or being bored by him which is what it sounds like you were. FWIW he has no speech, physical and behvioural problems and I take him horse riding, swimming, shopping, to the park, walking, watching football etc etc.

So tell us why your W does not deserve 100% custody because it seems to me like you are still doing this all in an effort to win W back and it is not about spending quality time with your S. Why should W make any effort for the exchange when you want to be with him. Why does W owe you anything at all?

I'm sorry Bruce but I don't understand the "You all understand why I'm less and less interested in W" but I could understand why W is less and less interested in you.

and this self pity... "The first mistake was mine, believing she would be faithful, trusting and marrying her".

I don't want to sound malicious but having read your thread I actually believe your W would show signs if only you would change and seriously take the advice that 25 and others have offered even at this stage.

I do wish you well in your hearing and hope you do get the opportunity to be with your S more. I wouldnt wish this on anyone but please learn.

[theUF]

Another thing that also prevented me from being super interested in my S in the beginning was the lack of 1. response from him

Most probably b/c you weren't super interested in him, and spent to little time with him. If you spend more time with him and be more interested, I'm sure he'll respond better to you.

and 2. ran out of things to do with him. It's okay to play at the park for one hour, but the rest of the time ?

Dude, no way.
YOU ran out of things to do.
The world is quite new to him, there is plenty to do.

Feed ducks. Show him some plants/moss/trees/bugs/leaves.
Find some small rocks and throw them in a puddle.
Find some small rocks and let him give some to you and you give some to him(Sharing).
Show him some trucks/cars/mc's
Write on a piece of paper and let him try.
Dance/sing/tell story.(Doesn't matter what, just be enthusiastic)
Let him help you put clothes in the washer, clean up spilled water, clean off tables, help cleaning up toys.
Show him how to brush his own teeth.
Show him how to use a (safe/play) tool.
Hide and seek. Playdough. And so forth.

Things that might seem meaningless to us is fun and bonding for them.
Important bonding happens even though there's nothing spectacular going on.

[eyesopen]

Bruce,

Children are no different than adults, if your time spent with him is filled with positive emotions, his eyes will light up every time you show up for your time with him.

Along with the important health and dietary questions Bond has asked you, I would ask you this, do you know where he is ticklish? What can you do to make him laugh? Build him a fort in the house and get out the flashlights. What can you do to leave him wanting more of you?

Since you have missed the first couple years and have not grown with him it may feel strange at first to really start parenting, but if you start doing all of the things suggested to you, before you know it you will be like the rest of us, heartbroken when they leave, and filled with overwhelming joy when they return.

[Big Bruce]

Thank you all for your various inputs,
A nuance needs to be clarified: my S not responding to me made it difficult for me to be intersted in him IN THE BEGINNING .
Things have evolved now, and I find fun things to do together, and albeit short we always have a good time.

I only get to see S twice a week for two hours, that is why I am seeking the help of the Court. The lawyer of W wants to postpone the hearing to the 15th February. I suppose they must have received my answer, and need time to think. My L made a good job in opposing almost all of her points without being accusing.
The best part really is that I have emails or pictures to prove almost everything that I claim to be true. It will certainly undermine the credibility of her deposition.

Basically, I told my L that I needn't stoop down to her level, but saying the truth is always best. I had ample proof of what I say.

Despite my trying to be as neutral and fair as possible, and even though I am not supposed to try and think what W is feeling, I imagine she must be fuming at my sworn deposition which calls her a liar without saying it.

Following your advice, I am not contacting W at all, except to agree on an hour where I am supposed to pick S up.
Really short emails, no greetings or compliments, or good-byes. <-- She must have seen the 180 by now.

I am not supposed to touch a piping hot stove anyway, so no point in reaching out and saying nice things to W at the moment.
Do you agree with this?
(at least not until the proceedings are over).

My L himself told me that when a third party (the judge) rectifies a situation, and you're proved wrong, the unreasonnable spouse usually becomes more reasonnable.

I know I'm in for a long process, the step 1 being trying to be the best dad possible.
step 2. Keep exchanging with my W on things about S. Let the rage cool off.
step 3. Build on the "camaraderie" feeling, the thing in common that we share : namely our taking care of young Bruce.
step 4. Let her realize whatever she needs to work out in her life, see that grass isn't greener or that she isn't happier, and let her initiate the emotionnal connection. How many months until this stage?

That's the plan for the moment. Any improvements to it? All suggestions welcome.
Merci,
B.