she's a wonderful person but...

[25yearsmlc]

I've lost a parent, and my h has lost one, too. So I've been on both sides of the tragedy. Let me share some observations.

Thank you for sharing your story. It helps me understand a bit more of what W must be going through (since she's not talking to me about it - and that's okay! ). It also illustrates how difficult it can be supporting your spouse through a prolonged crisis.

I'd never heard of this Retrouvaille thing you mentioned. I've looked it up now, and maybe that'd be something to suggest down the road. W is Catholic, not me.

my h is not Catholic and I was a tad nervous that someone might try to convert. That SOOO did NOT happen!

Fwiw, ours was not dogmatic at all. There are team couples there who are the conductors of the retreat, and a retired priest stood up and said two things: he said he'd be around if anyone wanted to talk to him OR if they had problems with the Church, he'd listen. (He also apologized for any damage anyone suffered from clergy, which I thought was gutsy). Also, twice he lead us in prayer. My h didn't seem fazed or freaked. it was not a "Catholic" prayer but a generic one. After the whole thing was over, there was a Mass you could attend if you wanted to and most of the Catholics did, including me and my h came too. We were feeling pretty close.

I suspect if you are an adamant atheist, you could be turned off by any Retrovaille weekend b/c they do believe in having a spiritual connection in marriage. But there were no conversion talks at ours. Call ahead if you;re nervous.

BTW*** Retrovaille is NOT an "encounter weekend"; Retrovaille means "rediscover" in French, and is specifically for couples who have marriages in crisis. Many of our 25 couples were contemplating divorce at the time they attended. 4 years later 20 or 21 are still together. Retrovaille claims a better than 80% success rate and---

given why the couples are there, that's impressive.


So the "team couples" each told us their stories in pieces we could handle. Their problems made ours pale in comparison...(some had lost a child, several had affairs, addictions, bankruptcy, etc) and
yet there they were, a few years later, still married, and there to tell us "it's worth it."

It's hard not to be inspired.



Reading some of these relationship books, I was thinking I'd look up some marriage retreats as a way to kickstart our relationship reboot whenever she's ready to do that. But I was a little concerned that many of these authors, if they have a religious bent, are from the evangelical Protestant side of the Christian spectrum. W might be more open to a Catholic version. Anyway, I'm glad you mentioned it. And that you went in the middle of your crises.

We went when we felt we were in piecing, but I knew we were backsliding and I had low reserves for that. And the dying parent (my mil) was in full swing but little did I know it'd be over another year before she'd pass on. I am not complaining that she lived too long; just saying we didn't plan out things well b/c we had no timeline for it.

I'm Catholic, but not a great one. I try to be religious but feel there are many paths to God. So I probably would not feel comfortable with an evangelical approach IF

1) Catholics got bashed (b/c suddenly I get defensive when someone ELSE criticizes my church) and OR 2) I'd be freaked out if someone said "wives obey h's"...b/c it feels wrong to me.



Unfortunately, Retrouvaille doesn't seem to be operating in our city, even though the Diocese has it on their website. Maybe it's just not scheduled yet.

CALL and find out when and where the next one is. They are all around but not consistently in one place.

Ours was in our city..ON our anniversary just 2 weeks later. I felt the universe was pretty much supporting us in going...

SO....my suggestions...simple compliments.

Let them take the lead on intimacy.

I think I've finally settled on backing off. I find myself thinking, surprisingly, that I'm okay with no sex for months if that's what she needs. Not sure how many. I'm telling myself over and over that it's not rejection, it's grieving space.

absolutely


Same goes with non-sexual touching as well.

you can try to touch her IF you make sure she knows it's just about a back rub and it's not meant to be foreplay, but just you giving HER some affection or comfort, etc.

Have you asked her to tell you when and how you can best comfort her? If she says "leave me alone', do not take that as a permanent request. It's not. (IF she says "get a divorce" that would be very different. But I'm not getting that from her).

Although I also realize certain kindnesses can trigger grief bouts. Not all of that is unhealthy though.


I'll try sticking to the parting/greeting kiss as my lifeline. I'll try to keep up the simple compliments, the little gifts, and the increased chores since that shouldn't lead to any breaks in that wall she's trying to maintain. Yet I hope it's still noticed and seen as acts of love and support.

Express your love and support in as many ways possible and she'll know. Don't hope to get noticed or it'll be a tactical choice, not a gift of love. Make sense?

It's only a short-term plan. It can't go on indefinitely. And it can't simply return to our pattern of recent years. I just hope she's willing to tackle it, too.


Stop borrowing trouble from tomorrow. First of all, you both have work to do but for now, it's NOT HER time for that work. Sukk it up for now.


That doesn't mean you don't have work to do ---which you CAN do now. What issues are you working on so you can become the best man YOU can become?

stepping up to the plate AND doing it with love, not a martyr's sigh

Yeah, I think I've had a few of those martyr sighs, and worse. Got to keep them in check. I'm starting to remember some from long ago that probably helped establish our pattern. Doing some dishes yesterday, I had a flash of scrubbing the sinks and counters with bleach in a rage once, prompted by some complaint or request from W about helping out more. Yeah, that probably didn't come across as an expression of love.

Good insight^^...change those behaviors b/c they're very noticed and very resented and she probably lacked the energy to complain then, but I bet she recalls them....maybe all is not forgotten by her.

She probably has her own "Scorecard" and on that one, you're way behind.
Think about it. You see yourself as the victim here but I don't and I bet your w does not either.

See, as she more than steps up to the plate for her parents, and the kids, and gets the martyr routine from YOU, oh my, I bet she rolled her eyes and thought "wow he really doesn't get it" (that would be my best case scenario of how she saw it, btw)

Of course I don't think scorecards are good in ANY marriage. B/c we measure things differently and

we're supposed to live "from this day forward" and "not keep a record of wrongs", correct?

Good luck

[banjopicker]

I suspect if you are an adamant atheist, you could be turned off by any Retrovaille weekend b/c they do believe in having a spiritual connection in marriage. But there were no conversion talks at ours. Call ahead if you;re nervous.

Agnostic with evangelical roots. I come from a line of evangelical ministers and was headed there myself until I made the break in university. Not nervous, just don't want to hear about God every other sentence.

So the "team couples" each told us their stories in pieces we could handle. Their problems made ours pale in comparison...(some had lost a child, several had affairs, addictions, bankruptcy, etc) and
yet there they were, a few years later, still married, and there to tell us "it's worth it."

It's hard not to be inspired.

"Pale in comparison" applies to us, too.

I probably would not feel comfortable with an evangelical approach IF

1) Catholics got bashed (b/c suddenly I get defensive when someone ELSE criticizes my church) and OR 2) I'd be freaked out if someone said "wives obey h's"...b/c it feels wrong to me.

I know what you mean about (1). Even though I've rejected the evangelical church, I get defensive when I hear it criticized. Now there's a whole other topic that might need its own thread. Totally agree with (2). Still, I'd be open to some evangelical marriage events - some will be more conservative than others.

CALL and find out when and where the next one is.

I will.

you can try to touch her IF you make sure she knows it's just about a back rub and it's not meant to be foreplay, but just you giving HER some affection or comfort, etc.

Good idea.

Have you asked her to tell you when and how you can best comfort her?

Good idea. But I'm trying not to talk to her about this stuff to give her the space she wants. Wouldn't this count as violating that space?

Although I also realize certain kindnesses can trigger grief bouts. Not all of that is unhealthy though.

But I need to let her decide when she wants these triggers pulled, right?

Express your love and support in as many ways possible and she'll know. Don't hope to get noticed or it'll be a tactical choice, not a gift of love. Make sense?

Okay, yeah, good thought. It's made me think. Seems like there's more here. For example, if love is a decision, then aren't all gifts of love choices? And why do I want it to be noticed? B/c I'd hopefully see a positive response, meaning that we're on the road to strengthening our R? Or is there some selfish reason I'm not seeing yet? I'll keep thinking on this...

you both have work to do but for now, it's NOT HER time for that work. Sukk it up for now.

Okay, I've agreed to this already and am doing it. Yes, ultimately, it's a joint project.

That doesn't mean you don't have work to do ---which you CAN do now. What issues are you working on so you can become the best man YOU can become?

So far, it's working on speaking the 5LL. But I need to clarify it more.

Yeah, I think I've had a few of those martyr sighs, and worse.

Good insight^^...change those behaviors b/c they're very noticed and very resented and she probably lacked the energy to complain then, but I bet she recalls them....maybe all is not forgotten by her.

I can't remember the talk we had before or after the scrubbing incident. But whatever the outcome, it and others like it probably had a chill effect on her future requests. Seems like we used to have more arguments, and they largely disappeared as we settled into our patterns.

She probably has her own "Scorecard" and on that one, you're way behind.

Sure, I'd agree, she's scoring with her own bias.

Think about it. You see yourself as the victim here but I don't and I bet your w does not either.

See, as she more than steps up to the plate for her parents, and the kids, and gets the martyr routine from YOU, oh my, I bet she rolled her eyes and thought "wow he really doesn't get it" (that would be my best case scenario of how she saw it, btw)

This comment really throws me. Sure, on my scorecard, I've taken more hits, and it's the opposite on hers. But it's my feelings I'm talking about on this board and trying to sort out. I don't see myself as the sole victim. I'm certain she has issues and disappointments and resentments about me, and I'd love to talk to her about it instead of guessing. But that'll come down the road, on her timetable.

BTW, that scrubbing memory was from well before the sick kid and parent. In more recent years, the launching point for the martyr routine has been times when I've felt an idea of mine has been rejected (e.g., family outing or activity; parenting action).

Of course I don't think scorecards are good in ANY marriage. B/c we measure things differently and

we're supposed to live "from this day forward" and "not keep a record of wrongs", correct?

Now this comment makes more sense to me.

[GH31]

G'day Banjopicker,

Just wanted to say I really love this thread and I think you've done a sensational job in working on yourself and ultimately your marriage. I wish I had done what you are doing back before my my marriage disintegrated in January 2008. It may have saved me nearly 2 years of absolute hell.

This struck me in your conversation about Retrouvaille:

Agnostic with evangelical roots. I come from a line of evangelical ministers and was headed there myself until I made the break in university. Not nervous, just don't want to hear about God every other sentence.

You will struggle to find a more hard nosed atheist and skeptic than me.

But... If I had had the opportunity to go to Retrouvaille with my wife I would have done it in a heartbeat. From all the research I have done and people I've listened to it seems it's extremely worthwhile and effective.

If I were drowning it wouldn't matter to me if the rescue boat which picked me up had a cross, crescent, star of David, wheel, Chinese characters or no symbol at all painted on its side.

This may surprise you but I am a huge fan of Dave Ramsey. We are currently getting out of debt and I listen to all of his podcasts. I'm Australian and an atheist, he's from the American South and deeply religious. Our cultural similarities begin and end with the English language. I love most of what he has to say but simply take a deep breath and deploy the "God filter" when he talks about scriptures or faith.

I'm working his plan because I so badly want out of debt and servitude, and I'm convinced that if we'll follow it, we'll succeed.

Absolutely get to Retrovaille if you can and keep posting.

My sincerest condolences to your wife.

GH31

[25yearsmlc]

for the sake of clarity, I'll post in blue/purple...OR if that proves difficult, which it can be I'll underline it too, okay?

I suspect if you are an adamant atheist, you could be turned off by any Retrovaille weekend b/c they do believe in having a spiritual connection in marriage. But there were no conversion talks at ours. Call ahead if you;re nervous.

Agnostic with evangelical roots. I come from a line of evangelical ministers and was headed there myself until I made the break in university. Not nervous, just don't want to hear about God every other sentence.

[color:#000099]
Though I'm not religious enough, I sure find that a spiritual connection helps. I worked hard to lose my religious baggage and that helped.

My faith in...someone up there, and this site, which perhaps was connected to what/who got me here, got me through this.

It Gave me strength and courage to do what I did not think I could do...such as, learn to forgive.

So the "team couples" each told us their stories in pieces we could handle. Their problems made ours pale in comparison...(some had lost a child, several had affairs, addictions, bankruptcy, etc) and
yet there they were, a few years later, still married, and there to tell us "it's worth it."

It's hard not to be inspired.
[/color]

"Pale in comparison" applies to us, too.
---

CALL and find out when and where the next one is.

I will.

you can try to touch her IF you make sure she knows it's just about a back rub and it's not meant to be foreplay, but just you giving HER some affection or comfort, etc.

Good idea.

Have you asked her to tell you when and how you can best comfort her?

Good idea. But I'm trying not to talk to her about this stuff to give her the space she wants. Wouldn't this count as violating that space?


NO, imo, it's not violating her space to ASK HER, HOW you can best comfort her.
She may say "back off til further notice" and then, you'll at least know. And she'll know you cared/respected her enough to ask. NO more mind reading.

And don't use the "give her space" as an excuse to withdraw and do nothing...

Although I also realize certain kindnesses can trigger grief bouts. Not all of that is unhealthy though.

But I need to let her decide when she wants these triggers pulled, right?


Whoah....You misunderstand what I mean when I say "triggers". The "triggers" are not buttons you want to push. You don't "let her decide when"...NOR do you seek them out.

you MAY find or discover triggers...don't make them worse

AND don't take the bouts of grief OR how she handles it, personally.

Express your love and support in as many ways possible and she'll know. Don't hope to get noticed or it'll be a tactical choice, not a gift of love. Make sense?

Okay, yeah, good thought. It's made me think. Seems like there's more here. For example, if love is a decision,


FYI, love IS a decision. It is a choice. And It's not just a noun either; Love is a verb. Love takes action. We must choose to love on a daily basis, even when we don't feel like it AND OR even when our spouses don't act so lovable...even when we don' t think they "Deserve" it, and we remind ourselves that sometimes WE don't "deserve loving behavior" but we sure want/need/& expect it, don't we?


then aren't all gifts of love choices? And why do I want it to be noticed?

^^^ exactly

B/c I'd hopefully see a positive response, meaning that we're on the road to strengthening our R? Or is there some selfish reason I'm not seeing yet? I'll keep thinking on this...


^^^ it can be both 'looking for good signs" AND selfish reasons, but for sure, the self serving aspect DOES exist and needs to be duly noted, aware of, etc.

you both have work to do but for now, it's NOT HER time for that work. Sukk it up for now.

Okay, I've agreed to this already and am doing it. Yes, ultimately, it's a joint project.

That doesn't mean you don't have work to do ---which you CAN do now. What issues are you working on so you can become the best man YOU can become?

So far, it's working on speaking the 5LL. But I need to clarify it more.


so, you're working on figuring out her love languages and that is how you are working on YOU?

You may not understand what I mean. I mean, what faults of yours are you working to improve upon? What quirks or annoying habits or character flaws do you have, that YOU wish to change so that YOU can become a better man?

If you are insensitive, for instance, work on developing AND expressing empathy and compassion for others...

really wrap your brain arount someone else's point of view, embrace the value of dfferences in approach and opinion...etc.

Is this clearer now?

Yeah, I think I've had a few of those martyr sighs, and worse.

Good insight^^...change those behaviors b/c they're very noticed and very resented and she probably lacked the energy to complain then, but I bet she recalls them....maybe all is not forgotten by her.

I can't remember the talk we had before or after the scrubbing incident. But whatever the outcome, it and others like it probably had a chill effect on her future requests. Seems like we used to have more arguments, and they largely disappeared as we settled into our patterns.

[color:#000099]
Do you mean you think communicated "better" before, even if it was by fighting? OR BECAUSE you fought?

The amount of conflict isn't as relevant as how you resolve it.

Fighting is alright IF you fight fair, and don't damage each other

BUT FIGHTING IS ONLY FINE, IF YOU ACTUALLY RESOLVE SOMETHING....not the endlessly repetitive "Same thing we fought about last week/month" type...

Life gives some couples more to deal with, than others.

So, what does conflict resolution look like to YOU?

And to HER?

Bottom line is most couples need tools for this^^^ thing called "conflict resolution. Get those tools! Get them from books, and or from a solution based marriage counselor, (not the kind of MC that rehashes your fights and never finds a solution)

OR attend Retrovaille, or Essential Experience or some workshop or marriage retreat weekend that provides these types of tools...Yep, get some conflict resolution skills/tools....asap.

We all need them and we often need them refreshed. New problems can mean finding new ways of solving them.

She probably has her own "Scorecard" and on that one, you're way behind.

Sure, I'd agree, she's scoring with her own bias.

just as you have been scoring with your bias...SO begin by losing your scorecard. In time, she'll have the sense that you are letting things slide more. That you are letting go of the past and staying in the present more, and this may lead her to do the same OR to want to...but she may not know how. You can model this.

Think about it. You see yourself as the victim here but I don't and I bet your w does not either.

See, as she more than steps up to the plate for her parents, and the kids, and gets the martyr routine from YOU, oh my, I bet she rolled her eyes and thought "wow he really doesn't get it" (that would be my best case scenario of how she saw it, btw)[/color]

This comment really throws me. Sure, on my scorecard, I've taken more hits, and it's the opposite on hers. But it's my feelings I'm talking about on this board and trying to sort out. I don't see myself as the sole victim. I'm certain she has issues and disappointments and resentments about me, and I'd love to talk to her about it instead of guessing. But that'll come down the road, on her timetable.


yes it'll come in time if all goes well. Your wife is going through a lot...she may not be ready to talk to you about her sadnesss or grief or problems...ever.

She may simply choose to go "from this day forward" (like our marriage vows say to do). I bet that's the reason for the words.

Lose the scorecard. Please see how you wrote the above. You want to hold onto it, you want to compare them...I'm telling you it's NOT productive...

BTW, that scrubbing memory was from well before the sick kid and parent. In more recent years, the launching point for the martyr routine has been times when I've felt an idea of mine has been rejected (e.g., family outing or activity; parenting action).

^^^^ sounds like a wounded ego - reacting...?? You would not be the first man to react that way. We can all act like children at times. This isn't an easy task or experience anyhow and we're all human, just learning as we go.

Of course I don't think scorecards are good in ANY marriage. B/c we measure things differently and

we're supposed to live "from this day forward" and "not keep a record of wrongs", correct?

Now this comment makes more sense to me.

okay good

[banjopicker]

Just wanted to say I really love this thread

Well, I'm glad someone does - it's hard work! 25yearsmlc is sure making me sweat - if she was my fitness instructor I'm sure I would've lost 10 pounds by now! And over the holidays even!

and I think you've done a sensational job in working on yourself and ultimately your marriage.

25yearsmlc, are you reading this?

I wish I had done what you are doing back before my my marriage disintegrated in January 2008. It may have saved me nearly 2 years of absolute hell.

Yeah, I seem to be in a different place than many on this board. Thanks for the encouragement. And 25yearsmlc, I really do appreciate being able to argue about this stuff here rather than with W.

If I were drowning it wouldn't matter to me if the rescue boat which picked me up had a cross, crescent, star of David, wheel, Chinese characters or no symbol at all painted on its side.

Agreed. Spoken like a true agnostic.

I love most of what he has to say but simply take a deep breath and deploy the "God filter" when he talks about scriptures or faith.

Yup, that's my approach, too.

Absolutely get to Retrovaille if you can and keep posting.

Yes, it sounds good. I'll check into it.

My sincerest condolences to your wife.

Thank you. You'll forgive me if I don't pass them on - she doesn't know I'm on this board.

[AnotherStander]

Just to reiterate what GH31 and 25 have said, RetroV is not a hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-Bible experience. I can understand your reluctance since most church-affiliated activities can be a bit heavy-handed, but I've read everything I could find on RetroV and the participants come from all areas of belief and non-belief and all say there is nothing they found objectionable about the content. I am very spiritual but not at all religious, so I did look into that aspect of RetroV out of curiousity and I found nothing of concern at all. As mentioned there is a prayer here and there and the God component of marriage is discussed, but mostly it's couples-focused.

[25yearsmlc]

total agreement with AS's take on Retrovaille.

and not to nag on the atheists or agnostics here, b/c It's not like I'm a great member of my church, okay? But I want to make a small point here. Something that's been in the back of my mind a lot lately.

On one hand, some church goers use their religion to try and force their WASs to return. They want to "shame them home". And it's a huge turn off, of course. And some WAS leave in the first place, b/c an LBSer is so self righteous, that they become insufferable.

I get that^^^...I really do and I've seen it happen first hand.

But on the other hand, sometimes I hear too much resistance to ANY religious commentary, and

it makes me wonder if that might be a reason so many of us are HERE in the first place...

maybe if we stopped resisting the urges to justify our selfish choices

and or

really put our spouse ahead of ourselves, really worked on ourselves spiritually, maybe we would not be here at all.

It does seem ironic that anyone here, in so much pain, would resist the changes that being a little more religious, might require of us. I mean, we are here on a "marriages in crisis" place...so a little more God seems in order to me.

Or a lot more.

[lostinscared]

AMEN!!!!!!!!! I've never seen spirituality hurt anyone. Dogmatic religion, yes, spirituality, no. Sorry for the hijack, just loved that.

LIS

[GH31]

total agreement with AS's take on Retrovaille.

and not to nag on the atheists or agnostics here, b/c It's not like I'm a great member of my church, okay? But I want to make a small point here. Something that's been in the back of my mind a lot lately.

Not sure I like the sound of this .

But on the other hand, sometimes I hear too much resistance to ANY religious commentary,

There is a very good reason for this, 25yearsmlc. Nothing poisons and polarises an otherwise perfectly good natured marriage forum like bringing religion and politics into the mix.

and it makes me wonder if that might be a reason so many of us are HERE in the first place...

We are here because we, our spouses or both of us did or said the wrong things, not believed the wrong things. Granted, what we believe impacts what we do and say but I am yet to see any evidence that more religiosity = more marital bliss.

maybe if we stopped resisting the urges to justify our selfish choices and or really put our spouse ahead of ourselves, really worked on ourselves spiritually, maybe we would not be here at all.

True, but what does religion or a belief in a god or gods have to do with any of this?

It does seem ironic that anyone here, in so much pain, would resist the changes that being a little more religious, might require of us. I mean, we are here on a "marriages in crisis" place...so a little more God seems in order to me.

In order for "a little more God" to be relevant, the person concerned has to be of the mind that there is in fact a loving, benevolent God. What good is that if you don't believe?

There were many times in my "sitch" when I thought it might be "useful" to believe, or that I might derive some "comfort" if I went to church, just for some human contact. That doesn't make any of the stuff they talk about "fact" though and I would have felt like a hypocrite, so I didn't go.

Banjopicker, sincere apologies for the threadjack. I think this is probably the main reason that these topics are generally avoided here.

This is your thread and we'd love to hear more from you.

[MrBond]

"Nothing poisons and polarises an otherwise perfectly good natured marriage forum like bringing religion and politics into the mix."

I disagree...at least about the religion part. For many people, it's their faith in something (could be God) that keeps them going. In this time of crisis, anything that you can find inspiration in that will keep you going is a good thing.

If there's one thing about DB, it's learning to accept one's differences. Like our spouses. We don't have to necessarily agree, but we understand that everyone has a right to believe what they want. Doesn't make it wrong or right. But it's THEIR belief and it should be respected as such.