she's a wonderful person but...

[25yearsmlc]

for the sake of clarity, I'll post in blue/purple...OR if that proves difficult, which it can be I'll underline it too, okay?

I suspect if you are an adamant atheist, you could be turned off by any Retrovaille weekend b/c they do believe in having a spiritual connection in marriage. But there were no conversion talks at ours. Call ahead if you;re nervous.

Agnostic with evangelical roots. I come from a line of evangelical ministers and was headed there myself until I made the break in university. Not nervous, just don't want to hear about God every other sentence.

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Though I'm not religious enough, I sure find that a spiritual connection helps. I worked hard to lose my religious baggage and that helped.

My faith in...someone up there, and this site, which perhaps was connected to what/who got me here, got me through this.

It Gave me strength and courage to do what I did not think I could do...such as, learn to forgive.

So the "team couples" each told us their stories in pieces we could handle. Their problems made ours pale in comparison...(some had lost a child, several had affairs, addictions, bankruptcy, etc) and
yet there they were, a few years later, still married, and there to tell us "it's worth it."

It's hard not to be inspired.
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"Pale in comparison" applies to us, too.
---

CALL and find out when and where the next one is.

I will.

you can try to touch her IF you make sure she knows it's just about a back rub and it's not meant to be foreplay, but just you giving HER some affection or comfort, etc.

Good idea.

Have you asked her to tell you when and how you can best comfort her?

Good idea. But I'm trying not to talk to her about this stuff to give her the space she wants. Wouldn't this count as violating that space?


NO, imo, it's not violating her space to ASK HER, HOW you can best comfort her.
She may say "back off til further notice" and then, you'll at least know. And she'll know you cared/respected her enough to ask. NO more mind reading.

And don't use the "give her space" as an excuse to withdraw and do nothing...

Although I also realize certain kindnesses can trigger grief bouts. Not all of that is unhealthy though.

But I need to let her decide when she wants these triggers pulled, right?


Whoah....You misunderstand what I mean when I say "triggers". The "triggers" are not buttons you want to push. You don't "let her decide when"...NOR do you seek them out.

you MAY find or discover triggers...don't make them worse

AND don't take the bouts of grief OR how she handles it, personally.

Express your love and support in as many ways possible and she'll know. Don't hope to get noticed or it'll be a tactical choice, not a gift of love. Make sense?

Okay, yeah, good thought. It's made me think. Seems like there's more here. For example, if love is a decision,


FYI, love IS a decision. It is a choice. And It's not just a noun either; Love is a verb. Love takes action. We must choose to love on a daily basis, even when we don't feel like it AND OR even when our spouses don't act so lovable...even when we don' t think they "Deserve" it, and we remind ourselves that sometimes WE don't "deserve loving behavior" but we sure want/need/& expect it, don't we?


then aren't all gifts of love choices? And why do I want it to be noticed?

^^^ exactly

B/c I'd hopefully see a positive response, meaning that we're on the road to strengthening our R? Or is there some selfish reason I'm not seeing yet? I'll keep thinking on this...


^^^ it can be both 'looking for good signs" AND selfish reasons, but for sure, the self serving aspect DOES exist and needs to be duly noted, aware of, etc.

you both have work to do but for now, it's NOT HER time for that work. Sukk it up for now.

Okay, I've agreed to this already and am doing it. Yes, ultimately, it's a joint project.

That doesn't mean you don't have work to do ---which you CAN do now. What issues are you working on so you can become the best man YOU can become?

So far, it's working on speaking the 5LL. But I need to clarify it more.


so, you're working on figuring out her love languages and that is how you are working on YOU?

You may not understand what I mean. I mean, what faults of yours are you working to improve upon? What quirks or annoying habits or character flaws do you have, that YOU wish to change so that YOU can become a better man?

If you are insensitive, for instance, work on developing AND expressing empathy and compassion for others...

really wrap your brain arount someone else's point of view, embrace the value of dfferences in approach and opinion...etc.

Is this clearer now?

Yeah, I think I've had a few of those martyr sighs, and worse.

Good insight^^...change those behaviors b/c they're very noticed and very resented and she probably lacked the energy to complain then, but I bet she recalls them....maybe all is not forgotten by her.

I can't remember the talk we had before or after the scrubbing incident. But whatever the outcome, it and others like it probably had a chill effect on her future requests. Seems like we used to have more arguments, and they largely disappeared as we settled into our patterns.

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Do you mean you think communicated "better" before, even if it was by fighting? OR BECAUSE you fought?

The amount of conflict isn't as relevant as how you resolve it.

Fighting is alright IF you fight fair, and don't damage each other

BUT FIGHTING IS ONLY FINE, IF YOU ACTUALLY RESOLVE SOMETHING....not the endlessly repetitive "Same thing we fought about last week/month" type...

Life gives some couples more to deal with, than others.

So, what does conflict resolution look like to YOU?

And to HER?

Bottom line is most couples need tools for this^^^ thing called "conflict resolution. Get those tools! Get them from books, and or from a solution based marriage counselor, (not the kind of MC that rehashes your fights and never finds a solution)

OR attend Retrovaille, or Essential Experience or some workshop or marriage retreat weekend that provides these types of tools...Yep, get some conflict resolution skills/tools....asap.

We all need them and we often need them refreshed. New problems can mean finding new ways of solving them.

She probably has her own "Scorecard" and on that one, you're way behind.

Sure, I'd agree, she's scoring with her own bias.

just as you have been scoring with your bias...SO begin by losing your scorecard. In time, she'll have the sense that you are letting things slide more. That you are letting go of the past and staying in the present more, and this may lead her to do the same OR to want to...but she may not know how. You can model this.

Think about it. You see yourself as the victim here but I don't and I bet your w does not either.

See, as she more than steps up to the plate for her parents, and the kids, and gets the martyr routine from YOU, oh my, I bet she rolled her eyes and thought "wow he really doesn't get it" (that would be my best case scenario of how she saw it, btw)[/color]

This comment really throws me. Sure, on my scorecard, I've taken more hits, and it's the opposite on hers. But it's my feelings I'm talking about on this board and trying to sort out. I don't see myself as the sole victim. I'm certain she has issues and disappointments and resentments about me, and I'd love to talk to her about it instead of guessing. But that'll come down the road, on her timetable.


yes it'll come in time if all goes well. Your wife is going through a lot...she may not be ready to talk to you about her sadnesss or grief or problems...ever.

She may simply choose to go "from this day forward" (like our marriage vows say to do). I bet that's the reason for the words.

Lose the scorecard. Please see how you wrote the above. You want to hold onto it, you want to compare them...I'm telling you it's NOT productive...

BTW, that scrubbing memory was from well before the sick kid and parent. In more recent years, the launching point for the martyr routine has been times when I've felt an idea of mine has been rejected (e.g., family outing or activity; parenting action).

^^^^ sounds like a wounded ego - reacting...?? You would not be the first man to react that way. We can all act like children at times. This isn't an easy task or experience anyhow and we're all human, just learning as we go.

Of course I don't think scorecards are good in ANY marriage. B/c we measure things differently and

we're supposed to live "from this day forward" and "not keep a record of wrongs", correct?

Now this comment makes more sense to me.

okay good