she's a wonderful person but...

[banjopicker]

I suspect if you are an adamant atheist, you could be turned off by any Retrovaille weekend b/c they do believe in having a spiritual connection in marriage. But there were no conversion talks at ours. Call ahead if you;re nervous.

Agnostic with evangelical roots. I come from a line of evangelical ministers and was headed there myself until I made the break in university. Not nervous, just don't want to hear about God every other sentence.

So the "team couples" each told us their stories in pieces we could handle. Their problems made ours pale in comparison...(some had lost a child, several had affairs, addictions, bankruptcy, etc) and
yet there they were, a few years later, still married, and there to tell us "it's worth it."

It's hard not to be inspired.

"Pale in comparison" applies to us, too.

I probably would not feel comfortable with an evangelical approach IF

1) Catholics got bashed (b/c suddenly I get defensive when someone ELSE criticizes my church) and OR 2) I'd be freaked out if someone said "wives obey h's"...b/c it feels wrong to me.

I know what you mean about (1). Even though I've rejected the evangelical church, I get defensive when I hear it criticized. Now there's a whole other topic that might need its own thread. Totally agree with (2). Still, I'd be open to some evangelical marriage events - some will be more conservative than others.

CALL and find out when and where the next one is.

I will.

you can try to touch her IF you make sure she knows it's just about a back rub and it's not meant to be foreplay, but just you giving HER some affection or comfort, etc.

Good idea.

Have you asked her to tell you when and how you can best comfort her?

Good idea. But I'm trying not to talk to her about this stuff to give her the space she wants. Wouldn't this count as violating that space?

Although I also realize certain kindnesses can trigger grief bouts. Not all of that is unhealthy though.

But I need to let her decide when she wants these triggers pulled, right?

Express your love and support in as many ways possible and she'll know. Don't hope to get noticed or it'll be a tactical choice, not a gift of love. Make sense?

Okay, yeah, good thought. It's made me think. Seems like there's more here. For example, if love is a decision, then aren't all gifts of love choices? And why do I want it to be noticed? B/c I'd hopefully see a positive response, meaning that we're on the road to strengthening our R? Or is there some selfish reason I'm not seeing yet? I'll keep thinking on this...

you both have work to do but for now, it's NOT HER time for that work. Sukk it up for now.

Okay, I've agreed to this already and am doing it. Yes, ultimately, it's a joint project.

That doesn't mean you don't have work to do ---which you CAN do now. What issues are you working on so you can become the best man YOU can become?

So far, it's working on speaking the 5LL. But I need to clarify it more.

Yeah, I think I've had a few of those martyr sighs, and worse.

Good insight^^...change those behaviors b/c they're very noticed and very resented and she probably lacked the energy to complain then, but I bet she recalls them....maybe all is not forgotten by her.

I can't remember the talk we had before or after the scrubbing incident. But whatever the outcome, it and others like it probably had a chill effect on her future requests. Seems like we used to have more arguments, and they largely disappeared as we settled into our patterns.

She probably has her own "Scorecard" and on that one, you're way behind.

Sure, I'd agree, she's scoring with her own bias.

Think about it. You see yourself as the victim here but I don't and I bet your w does not either.

See, as she more than steps up to the plate for her parents, and the kids, and gets the martyr routine from YOU, oh my, I bet she rolled her eyes and thought "wow he really doesn't get it" (that would be my best case scenario of how she saw it, btw)

This comment really throws me. Sure, on my scorecard, I've taken more hits, and it's the opposite on hers. But it's my feelings I'm talking about on this board and trying to sort out. I don't see myself as the sole victim. I'm certain she has issues and disappointments and resentments about me, and I'd love to talk to her about it instead of guessing. But that'll come down the road, on her timetable.

BTW, that scrubbing memory was from well before the sick kid and parent. In more recent years, the launching point for the martyr routine has been times when I've felt an idea of mine has been rejected (e.g., family outing or activity; parenting action).

Of course I don't think scorecards are good in ANY marriage. B/c we measure things differently and

we're supposed to live "from this day forward" and "not keep a record of wrongs", correct?

Now this comment makes more sense to me.