Stop The D

[labug]

Yeah that made more sense in my head then what I wrote. Basically what I meant is maybe it was time for a S to allow me and the kids our own time when I have them. Obviously not seeing them some days would kill me and I'm guessing wouldn't be that great for them either. I'm just really struggling right now being in the house with her. She's just so cold and distant that it's affecting everyone. It's a happy upbeat atmosphere when she's not there. I try not to let it affect me much, especially in front of kids, but I know they sense it. W doesn't interact with us the same way as she used to and it's tough putting on a good face all the time no matter how hard I try. I know it's best to stay in house and will likely be what I do but it will be tough. I've tried to kid myself the last several weeks about our 'good family times' but when I look back I'm not so sure W was really enjoying it. I know that's me mind reading but I saw her body language, even when I was pretending things were going better. I feel I've enjoyed the times with just the kids more then when W is with us, which is really sad for me to write or think.

So this is all the opposite of being detached because what she's doing or not doing is affecting your emotions. I'm not faulting you because becoming detached takes time and work. Keep at it, but don't fool yourself into thinking anger, or hurt or loneliness are detachment. It's worth if for both you and the kids to strive for this.

I don't know if you should move or not move (but I would say if she's the one who wants out let her go. That's her dream, not yours) but I think making a decision now, just after the holidays is not in your best interests. Live your life, nothing has to be decided today or next week even. See what happens but don't let your discomfort with your emotions push you to do something you may regret.

[labug]

It's worth if for both you and the kids to strive for this(being detached).

This one thing will help you throughout the rest of your life in all aspects of your life.

[Spartan]

Someone told me a while back "don't give your W lemons...life will give her plenty." I think that's really important, so I wouldn't be considering moving out to make her "get it."

That's a good way to think about it. I definitely don't want to separate but it gets depressing being there with her with the moods she's in and the way she treats me/ our M. I know I need to be me and not let her affect my demeanor but it's hard to do all the time because seeing her makes me think about the sitch. (Maybe this is what you guys mean by me not being fully detached. I'm not sure if it's all her or just the sitch in general, especially regarding kids, that gets me more depressed.) When it's just me and kids it's been a complete blast without a care in the world. Most of the time when W is home I do a good job having fun with kids no matter her mood and I'm getting better at faking being upbeat after kids go to sleep. I'd be lying though if I said deep down it doesn't bother me when I stop and think about things.

I'm still a strong lean to stay in the house but it sure won't be easy unless something changes.

Regarding detaching from your W, I'm not sure you have. On one hand you say you have no feelings for her but on the other you're really concerned about not talking to her, not doing things for her, etc. I think the goal should be to just be you. When you are home with the kids, being yourself, enjoying your family...and then W comes home....I challenge you to continue to BE YOU. Don't let her attitude, her comments, her coldness, or whatever impact the fun you are having. You control you.

This is where it's getting confusing for me and maybe I don't really understand detachment. The part I'm struggling with is right now I don't feel anything for her and that bothers me. I never wanted to feel that way about my W (heck I don't want to feel that way about anyone). My struggle is that I hate this feeling that I don't want to talk with her, help her, or even care about her day. I'm not sure if that makes any sense or not.

Detaching is about your happiness not depending on what she does or does not do.

I thought about this and what would make me happy is to not be so detached or uncaring about her (see how confused I am). Should I just force myself to act like everything is fine and keep with the approach I was using before telling kids or should I start going dim and keep the acquaintance thing going? I honestly don't think either option is good (first feels fake (right now) and I don't like the feeling of second).

I would make plans with kids and not necessarily include her. Let her come with you if she wants. Don't ask in front of kids and don't put kids in position where they put W on the spot by saying " are you coming"?

I was planning to take the family to MSU basketball game next Saturday and wasn't sure what to do about W. I'm sure kids would like her to go but I'm not sure where I'm at with that. Maybe I'll ask W and let her decide if she wants to go or not. Do you think that's the right move in current sitch or should I just take the kids w/o inviting W?

I know things look like they are moving quickly, but this has only been a short while.

Yes they are which scares me. Last night W proposed custody arrangements. I hate the thought of not seeing my kids every day but realistically the deal is about as good as I could hope for. I would end up with kids 6 days every 2 weeks (T,F,S,S,T,F nights). I'm in Michigan and standard starting point is Wednesday's and every other weekend for husband so I'm at least ahead of that. From what my lawyer has said our judge is pretty pro W in custody matters unless blatant negligence by W. He recommended I get this figured out w/o going to judge. I'm still going to try to get one more night somehow for even 50/50 split. I hate this!!! The idea of making deals for my kids makes me sick to my stomach.

[Spartan]

but don't fool yourself into thinking anger, or hurt or loneliness are detachment.

Huh, I think this is what I'm currently doing and what I was considering detachment.

I don't know if you should move or not move (but I would say if she's the one who wants out let her go. That's her dream, not yours)

She won't move which doesn't make sense to me but she won't budge on that. I even told her I'd handle all finances on house so she could move clean and clear if that's what she really wanted to try.

Live your life, nothing has to be decided today or next week even. See what happens but don't let your discomfort with your emotions push you to do something you may regret.

Good point (from all you guys). I think I'm going to take a little time off and let the emotions of telling kids cool off and reassess in a couple weeks. I know I likely would regret if I left now.

[afa75]

Spartan,
I don't know all of your details, but I do know we share similarities, especially due to the in house separation and Ws not wanting to move out, despite wanting to move on without us in a M.

As far as detachment, I'm not 100% there by any means, but if you Google Al Turtle and detachment that may help you some.

[labug]

google livestrong detachment

[AnotherStander]

I don't know if I agree with you Tori that a separation is almost always a bad idea. I know that in my sitch, we need to separate if there is to be any peace between us, married or not. We simply can't live together any longer, and a separation may put some things in perspective.

I agree, in my sitch W remained cold and distant when we were under the same roof, there was no progress. I certainly didn't want her to move out, but per DB'ing and per Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" I did not try to make her stay either. Dobson refers to the WAS as being like a bird in a cage, the bird thinks it wants to fly but feels the LBS is caging it in. So the LBS needs to open the cage door. Sometimes just opening the cage door is enough to make the bird realize that maybe it doesn't want to fly after all, but sometimes it does fly away. But the LBS has to allow the WAS that freedom regardless. Leaving or staying has to be the WAS's decision and the LBS needs to support that decision even if they don't agree with it.

I'm not encouraging any LBS to leave or tell their spouse to leave, I'm just saying that if the WAS is saying they want to leave then we shouldn't try to stop them because they'll perceive the cage door as slamming shut and they'll want out even more. They'll feel pressure and they'll feel smothered. They need freedom, space and time to sort their thoughts. Staying, or coming back after leaving, has to be THEIR decision.

Back to my sitch and what S has resulted in, W moved out almost 4 months ago. Starting about a month ago she started acting more like her old self, she's being warmer and more caring and it feels like maybe she's taken a few chains and locks off the gate in the wall she built around herself. Still a long way to go, but the coldness and distancing that was there when we were under the same roof has definitely lessened a lot. And there's been steady improvement over the last month as well. Time will tell if it continues, but certainly things are looking much more positive than at any other time in the last 7 months.

[AnotherStander]

(Maybe this is what you guys mean by me not being fully detached. I'm not sure if it's all her or just the sitch in general, especially regarding kids, that gets me more depressed.)

I know it was impossible for me to completely detach when W was still in the house. I may have thought I was detached, but once she moved out and I focused more on me and less on her it became a little more clear just what detachment was supposed to look like.

Most of the time when W is home I do a good job having fun with kids no matter her mood and I'm getting better at faking being upbeat after kids go to sleep. I'd be lying though if I said deep down it doesn't bother me when I stop and think about things.

That's OK, acting "as if" is what you're doing and that's good DB'ing. With time you'll no longer have to act, you will eventually have a PMA that is unaffected by your W's actions. But until then acting is fine.

The part I'm struggling with is right now I don't feel anything for her and that bothers me. I never wanted to feel that way about my W (heck I don't want to feel that way about anyone). My struggle is that I hate this feeling that I don't want to talk with her, help her, or even care about her day. I'm not sure if that makes any sense or not.

It certainly makes sense to me because I've felt that too. I think I convinced myself for a while that I really didn't have any feelings for her anymore, but I've since come to realize that while I do want/ need the distance from her, the feelings are still there, I'm just supressing them. For me that's been the key to detachment. The feelings are there, but not affecting me or my PMA or GAL. If reconciliation is in the cards, I feel confident I can bring those feelings back out and nurture them.

Should I just force myself to act like everything is fine and keep with the approach I was using before telling kids or should I start going dim and keep the acquaintance thing going? I honestly don't think either option is good (first feels fake (right now) and I don't like the feeling of second).

Tough question for sure. I guess I would say look at it from a DB'ing perspective, and think about the cheeseless tunnels. Look at what you've been doing and ask yourself if it's been working, and if not then try something else. Remember that DB'ing often doesn't feel right at all, it often seems counterintuitive. So don't concern yourself too much about how it feels.

I was planning to take the family to MSU basketball game next Saturday and wasn't sure what to do about W. I'm sure kids would like her to go but I'm not sure where I'm at with that. Maybe I'll ask W and let her decide if she wants to go or not. Do you think that's the right move in current sitch or should I just take the kids w/o inviting W?

I follow Michele's advice very strictly on this, and that is that you should go ahead and make plans to go with the kids and then tell W she's welcome to join if she wants. In other words, make it clear that you're going with or without her, but if she wants to go along then you don't object. Sometimes my W goes and sometimes she doesn't, but if she doesn't then I show ambivalence, I don't ask her to explain why I just shrug it off and go anyway.

[adinva]

I disagree that physical separation leads toward ending the marriage.

The marriages that are in trouble here are already pretty much ended. Staying in the house or living apart, I see as just points along the timeline.

How you do it could change the pace of it, but if it's done with detachment, love, compassion, how could it push the marriage toward ending?

If it is wearing on you to live together in a fake marriage, but you're afraid of losing your position as the one who stayed, or your leverage in child custody, or your property rights (consult with a lawyer), then live in separate rooms. If your spouse wants out of the marriage, your spouse should be the one to leave the home.

I lived with my H and shared a bed with him for 18-1/2 months after he told me he didn't love me, would never love me, would never ML with me again, and wanted to draw up papers and separate our finances asap. Because he didn't leave, and I wasn't going to. My H seemed to have extreme inertia about getting this separation that he wanted so much done. I really think he was hoping I'd take action and get it done for him.

He seemed frozen for all those 18-1/2 months. He was religious about never touching me or looking me in the eye, or spending time in the same room with me if it could be avoided. We had the occasional family dinner but he'd come and eat and disappear again. He attended maybe four counseling sessions and each time was very clear that he didn't want to do anything to give me any expectations that we'd work this out. So physically I think his presence in the house caused him to keep this discipline front-of-mind, to make sure that he never did anything that might confuse me about his intentions or give me hope.

So I thought staying the house together gave us a better chance, and looking back I think it delayed what was already decided.

With two teenage boys I did everything the way I thought best for them and would do it the same if I had it to do again.

But based on my experience I would not wholeheartedly recommend inhome separation. Do what works. Try it for a while, evaluate it, if it's working continue and if it's not then make a change.

I made the change after about 18 months because my H was out socializing a lot, quite obviously in front of the teenage boys and their friends, and staying out all night. The boys were asking me why he did this. So I asked him to come home at night while he lived here, and to move out if he needed to stay out all night on weekends. Not too long after that conversation I got a separation document from him. At that point it was clear to me I was protecting his appearance more than the kids psyches with the charade, and I told him it was time for him to move out.

Since he's moved out, my detachment has improved. My moving forward has improved. The hope I was holding has dissolved and I'm seeing a brighter future without him. He's coming around a lot, taking more responbility with the kids, and trying to be very nice fixing my car and offering stuff. He bought us a tv to replace the one he took. He is buying a $50 grill for the counter top that I did not ask for, because he said the broiler dried out our steaks last time.

I'm very busy rebuilding my life, getting a home loan, reviewing the separation agreement, working, taking care of sick kids and rambunctious kids, doctors appointments, holidays, and whatnot, plus my GAL guitar practicing. I'm not thinking too much about him or what he's thinking or what he means. Last time he said anything he said he did not want to be married to me. So I look at him fixing my car as though now that he's out of the house he maybe feels safe doing favors that I won't possibly interpret as hope for reconciliation.

I'm happy with how this played out, and I wouldn't do much different, but omg it has been a relief to have him out of the house. Maybe where he is he can get a little happier and stop being such a grump. At least for his kids that will be a big improvement. I still have waves of grief and sometimes self-pity, and it's very very hard to go public with my sitch when it was hidden for so long.

I just wanted to say the actual moving-out is neutral to positive in my story. The staying in-house turned out to be neutral to negative. And nothing so far has in any way come close to the actual bomb in terms of hastening the end of our marriage.

After that, it's all been just details. Your mileage may vary but that's my experience.

[Breakdown]

Lots of great advice here Spartan. The only thing I'd add is that at one point, I decided that my W and I were no longer H and W...we were simply friends that were co-parenting. This took a huge amount of stress off my shoulders....every interaction was different, better, easier. The pressure subsided.

This idea might work for you or it might be something else...but try to find that mindset.