when do I start piecing ?

[7720]

D asked if I would could go horseback riding this week it is with a M couple that is trying to get us back together...I worry they might overstep their bounds and it might make W retreat but I told D that I would do it...I really miss my kids the week they are gone and they really miss me...It is hard for W because they count the days when they are there to when they will come back and when I have to hand them off from here they cry....I am really scared because if this ends in D then I will have to sell the house and maybe go back to school...in another state...sigh...

[AnotherStander]

oh boy tough day... I sometimes wonder if we have paired up with someone who has a genetic defect that does not allow them to stay with one person in a marriage...some people work so hard at it and others just act like they can take it or leave it.

I think we have society and Hollywood to thank for that. Marriage means nothing in our modern culture. Stay married as long as everything is fields of daisies, but at the first sign of trouble it's fine to cut and run. It's easier and better to seek a newer and better spouse then it is to try and save your M. That's the attitude, and our spouses have bought into it.

[7720]

yes you are definitely right on that call AS...there is all this fairy tale stuff no one is taught the work that goes into making a relationship work...so at the first sign of trouble is time to take off...
I got a call from D11 tonight crying saying "mom said she is not coming back!" She asked me to come over which I did and talked to W who quoted me all these people who had given her advice etch..and I said yes well tell me which one of those people is not emotionally unstable and does not have a terrible relationship with their kids...is this who you want to take advice from.? It makes me made how W just dropped bomb on kids like that; it does help me detach; I do have daydreams of being with someone who actually cares about their M...and their kids and does not think it is "uncool" to be a mom in a monogumus relationship. much like a lot of the people on here..I think W will never know what she had until it is gone but the problem will be that it is gone...So W told me she is not ready to D but she is not in the I am coming back camp...

[25yearsmlc]

77,

I'm sorry you are here, but it IS the best place to be, given the givens, which stink...

Your w is VERY confused. Is she seeing a counselor? Are you?

I wonder if her parents would support the idea...she's a mood swinger for sure...

take ALL her comments with a pound of salt and unless she repeats something a few times, I'd probably pay it little attention. Too much changing too fast
if she seems to expect a reaction from you then say you need time to process her mixed signals...or whatever

At the end of this post I'll send you a short piece on DETACHMENT, which you clearly need to work on, like most of us here...
.

yes you are definitely right on that call AS...there is all this fairy tale stuff no one is taught the work that goes into making a relationship work...so at the first sign of trouble is time to take off...

True, and many think the "work" of marriage is all drudgery, like digging a ditch in a jungle. But in our daily lives, our "work" IS our life, living it as best we can, fully and with grace and joy and strength and dignity...

you do it and you embrace it, the ups and downs and the smooth and the rough, AND over TIME, it bonds us and makes the tapestry of life for us, in all its' complexities and beauty and depth, and pain...


I got a call from D11 tonight crying saying "mom said she is not coming back!" She asked me to come over which I did and talked to W who quoted me all these people who had given her advice etch..

so, no counselor or professional or priest or clergy? INteresting choice of who she "polls" b/c apparently she is presently lacking a moral compass

or she cannot find hers. It's in a foggy place hidden and we can all just hope and pray she finds it soon enough...but don't judge her (not to her face at least)

b/c the more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them.

Do not do that. it does not help you...trust me.

As a lawyer, I was SURE my brilliant logical and compassionate and passionately reasoned arguments would prevail

and in a court room, I'm sure they would have. But my h was deaf to my words...just more "arguing" to him. I HAD to force myself to stfu and NOT argue with him....no point in it and it almost always escalated.

So I dropped the rope and began to believe, truly, that I'd be better off than he would be. He would lose more than me. Like you, I'd get most of the custody (I think you will too, if you want it and IF I'm interpreting your posts correctly)

once you believe you'll be alright, you radiate that, and it gives the WAS some doubt. It really does... Start GAL for real, and begin to accept that you might just be a single man again

and the world won't end...and you wont' be alone for a long long time

unless

you want to be...and let this belief in yourself and your future and what you will create for yourself AND your daughters

show...



and I said yes well tell me which one of those people is not emotionally unstable and does not have a terrible relationship with their kids...is this who you want to take advice from.? It makes me made how W just dropped bomb on kids like that;

don't argue. You can recap for her so 1) you know you heard her correctly and you show her that you care about her communicating with you

and

2) so SHE hears what SHE said, b/c sometimes I swear they don't hear themselves...




it does help me detach; I do have daydreams of being with someone who actually cares about their M.

we all do this^^^ and I don't think it's bad - as long as you don't let it spiral out of control...b/c I think in a way it steers us,

as it MAY have steered our spouses into giving up. But if you want to stay married, do it b/c you want to stay married, NOT b/c you fear being alone.

THere's a difference. When I saw a div lawyer, I felt empowered by the information. I CHOSE to DB b/c I wanted to, not b/c I was trapped. Somehow it really helped me feel at peace.

..and their kids and does not think it is "uncool" to be a mom in a monogumus relationship.

unless you wife SAID this^^ to your face (and even then, I'd wonder...)

I would not mind read. It's usually inaccurate, always unfair, and counter productive...

much like a lot of the people on here..I think W will never know what she had until it is gone but the problem will be that it is gone...So W told me she is not ready to D but she is not in the I am coming back camp...

So the saga continues...check my timeline to see how long it CAN last...

watch what example you set for your daughters b/c they are watching you MORE than you realize.

I'm not sure what you see as YOUR issues or what your 180s are

or what self improvement you are seeking to become the man you want to become...

a man only a fool would leave...

And let me remind you also, this KEY fact...

YOUR WIFE WILL NOT RETURN TO THE MARRIAGE,

UNLESS SHE BELIEVES-

MARRIAGE TO YOU CAN BE BETTER/DIFFERENT, THAN BEFORE.


So how are you SHOWING that to her?

And here's a piece on detachment...

I'll post more later though.

Meanwhile, all this should give you something to ponder.

Good luck...

"This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.
Our ego gets wounded, & then we are more inclined to do/say things that will undermine our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another.

We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference, with love. Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal.

It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back."

It is the natural acceptance that "I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."

[7720]

yes thank you for your advice and comments...They are very helpful...i was feeling like I was alone in the sea...my W thinks that this is not healthy for the children to not know what is going to happen and that she can tear off the band aide and let the wound heal faster so to speak...if she puts the nail in the coffin then they can mourn this and move on and be happy...d11 does spend a lot of time figuring out how to get us back together....C's are nice but very few of them are schooled in Dbing and tend to say o.k she is gone time to finalize everything so you can get on with life..very few of them or none that I have found would say follow the advice of people here. I pray for her return but sometimes I pray for me to move on and find someone else; I know that both are wrong but I am only human.

[7720]

I do know that I need to detach more...I read your post, 25 of all the was you Gal and it was very impressive...I wish I could do it but financially I don't think I could swing it as much but maybe on a smaller scale...there is a lot I have to do in these next few months...I am focusing too much on W...Dark days of winter are tough ...I live in MT and it gets dark at 4.30.

[25yearsmlc]

77,

This is a long post, but I hope at least some of it will help you. Did you get the 40 rules for newbies? Anyhow...

First, re GAL...why it matters, what helps the most, overcoming inertia, ETC

fwiw, my GAL was done in the interior of Alaska, I had a newborn baby, and only one of about a dozen GAL activities, cost much.

I edited a book, which counts as GAL to me b/c I'd never done it before.
Plus I ended up getting a big game hunting trip out of it, as partial payment (it was a hunting book)

I learned to cross country ski, to shoot well, and to deep sea fish (summer of course). Pretty cheap to ski and shoot. The fish I caught made up for the cost.

I also snow machined ("snow mobile" to the lower 48 crowd)

I took flying lessons and got my pilot's license, which is really the only thing that cost much. I checked it off my bucket list.

Later, I went skydiving, which was a thrill I've already repeated. It sure makes a statement. Felt empowering and exciting.

I joined a writer's group. I eventually got published and plus, I met interesting people. Totally took my mind off things, unless I vented and wrote about it, which also helps.

I auditioned for community theater & got cast eventually. I met fun people, and got some good roles that taught me about things I didn't know, and brought out some talents I wasn't positive I had.

***Plus, while you're on stage, you cannot think of anything but what you are doing, and being IN THE MOMENT -which you must learn to do anyhow-- that is a worthwhile life skill to attain. I highly recommend it.***

IF you hate being ON stage, volunteer to help backstage or the box office. It's free, you'll see some good theater, learn new things, and you'll meet new folks AND it does take your mind off the sitch.

I personally think good GAL mandates meeting new people ... solo activities are not that high on my list. Getting in shape and having alone time can be good, true. But too much alone time is isolating and it's so easy to do when we get depressed.

Also I did stand up comedy. I continue to do here. Totally enhances life. Very therapeutic...I did a set one night totally "Dedicated to my sbtxh * his MLC" and it went over very well. No, I never showed THAT tape to h...

now, going to the DMV presents opportunities for humor instead of being a purgatorial experience.
I took the following classes and met new, different types of people:

a French conversation class, nice for my heritage...

an Italian cooking class-very nice benefits.

pottery class (totally out of my comfort zone. Assumed it would bore me but it was relaxing and we have a few "interesting" vases)

I coached a softball team.

I volunteered at a women's shelter, and got on the Bd of Directors, which lead me to a job later on.

I did PTA things with my kids which is always good for them and me. (In a divorce proceeding the more involved you are, the better...not as a tactic, but as evidence you may need).

I worked out, used a tanning booth (Skin cancer is a drag, I know, But I needed the light so badly), and I saw a good therapist. For awhile, I was on Anti Depressants in the winter.

I got in shape and I looked good & that helped me feel good.

In sum, I made new friends there, who had nothig to do with my h or my situation.

As you can see, most of these things do not cost much or anything. Many could lead to connections for jobs if that interests you. They lead you to new friendships and discoveries about what a good fun person YOU are. It helps!

Another thing I did when h was gone, (he'd left right after Christmas,)

was to take the kids on a short ski trip. Not too pricey. WE rented a cabin with a big screen TV for movies, and a hot tub outside, which my kids LOVE, so we could go outside in the snow and feel comfy!

Skiing cost a few bucks but we only did it 2 days & the youngest one (your d's ages) liked sledding which did not cost much at all.

The point of the trip was having fun as a family WITHOUT their dad around. Like many in the military know from necessity, you can have fun as a family, even with a member missing.

Teach your d's that. Teach yourself that.

About a year later, for our upcoming 25th anniversary, (h had missed our 24th and sent some roses. I did NOT want to chance being alone on our 25th, so I took charge of what I'd be doing that day.)

I chose to go to Italy for my dream trip...and I took my kids and we had a blast.
It was the best money I ever borrowed/begged and saved for...

b/c it was SUCH a great trip without any reminders of h, all new stimulating places and a great learning experience for my kids too.

The kids loved it. We stayed in a place built in 1492, yeah, when America was discovered by Europeans...

WHY/HOW GAL CAN HELP RECONCILING...

77, Here's the clincher...

it bothered my h at some level, but what could he say or do? HIS choices brought him back to Alaska, and away from us. It was possibly an "aha" moment for him...he had trouble reaching us there and we were busy GAL...

he also saw me applying for jobs all over the place - b/c hey, his career was no longer of concern to me, let alone THE concern it had always been.

For the first time in decades, I could live where I wanted to live and WITH my kids...( and I'm not sure you're in that much of a different position. Your w clearly won't/can't get full custody. I doubt she wants it, let alone would get it).

He saw me busy, meeting new people, going to interesting places, doing new fun things...and it intrigued him. I was not so predictable, after all...

I had to act as if I accepted, w/a sense of resignation, that my h wanted out (but more like I felt pity FOR HIM, which I did,) b/c I felt certain HE would regret his choices, someday...

and since I could only make the best of my situation, I'd have NO regrets...and this matters a lot 77, it really does.

The WAS tends to look over their shoulders 2nd guessing themselves the rest of their lives...why?

B/c every time their new OP, isn't great, or gets testy, or shows a flaw, or doesn't remember the funny story YOU'D recall, or plays the song you hate, or hates the TV show she loves, or hurts the feelings of your/her child, they will wonder about their choices...

whenever they are alone, they will wonder.

Even holidays WITH the kids, will highlight your absence, and holidays without them will only do it more. Every time your d's ask her about "why?" or remind her of something you did or said, she will wonder...

She'll second guess her choice when her OM does not get a promotion or a raise...or when his family isn't kind to her or fun or smart or classy...

She'll wonder if you are happy...and if so, what that means about HER...

She'll wonder if she could have stayed...the better life you are living, the more she'll wonder...and of course, it's your life anyhow. Make the best of it b/c this is your only life, it's not a dress rehearsal.

I'm taken aback by her comments about how you are doing or that you "seem angry"...is she delusional? Does she think this is all fine with you?

Why would you be HAPPY with her?

I am confused about what she's saying...what were her complaints about you or the marriage? I missed those.

Like you, I had to make the best of it, which I was doing.

I met OMs who did two things for me. On one hand, I mostly missed my h more (which can happen to your wife too)
b/c he has qualities I enjoy that are a bit rare in my age group and demographic.

He's well educated and intelligent AND does not feel threatened by a woman of equal intelligence, or who has her own opinions.

My h is also in good physical shape and takes care of himself, which a lot of men my age don't do. He's physically active too, and those are all good things.

The OTHER thing I learned is that there are good attractive men out there, who enjoyed my company. So I felt that I was CHOOSING to work on the marriage, not "trapped" by fears of being alone, or fear of being poor and on the streets.

While you lament your inlaws support of your wife, since it benefits your children, and you have no control, you'll have to get past that.

Plus, your anger does NOT serve you well.

Work on detaching and I'll send you a few tips later that helped me that my DB coach gave me.

If you insist on not getting any counselling of any sort, then you better hire a DB coach.

I did.

I had a great mc (though he was the 3rd mc we saw)...the first ones we saw ALL told us that

he was "being selfish" and or acting as if "he had no family"...

While that made me feel vindicated, it did not improve anything. What do I DO with that info?

It did NOT help my h "wake up" and you must accept that there are no "secret words" that will get through to her. If there were, believe me, I'd know and I'd tell you.

Letting him go, releasing him to his task, helped ME and at some point helped him...Like I said, challenging their choices just makes them defend them more. You cement the choices in their mind more, by making them tell you why they're doing what they are doing.

Who cares WHY- as long as it's not something you have control over (if she says YOU are doing something that bothers her, that's quite different).

What has she ever said YOU do or don't do, that bothers her? You have said so little in that area, I worry you have nothing on your plate to work on.

Plus, when a mc tells you that your spouse is "Wrong" and you are mostly "right" well, to me it felt like they were saying "you are right AND therefore powerless"

b/c only if I am doing something wrong AND OR

only if there's something for me to work on in me,

do I have any control over things.

So if a counselor tells you to fix something in you, or to work on, LISTEN and be happy b/c it means you are not powerless!! You CAN make a difference. Hence my repeated questions to you about your own personal work.

You talk a lot (almost all) about HER and not about you. That has to change.

ANYHOW, after I had my "awakening", and began to envision a life without my husband, but with me being happy, I became a lot more at peace...even happy.

And not too much later, h began to say how much he missed us/me, and then said he was "begging" me to give him a chance to "become the h I deserved", etc. IMO, NOT a coincidence.

I urge you to do this as well---envision life without your wife, BUT with you being happy. What's it look like?

First, assume you are without any OW...and describe what a happy 77 would be doing, GAL, who he'd be hanging with, what your d's would enjoy doing with you, where you'd live, what hobbies or job you'd be doing, and then ask yourself which of those things you can create and do NOW.

Later on, of course you can imagine life without your w, but with OW, and being happy, but do your best NOT to rely on OW for your happiness,

b/c that's just another way of abdicating your duty and responsibility for your own personal happiness.

Yes It's YOUR job to be happy, not hers...being happy on your own is your responsibility and you are in charge of your happiness....yes you are. At least you are supposed to be.

ANYHOW,
I understand the darkness in MT and how the short days get to you. That was by far the hardest part of living in Alaska, for me. The cold I could sort of deal with w/proper equipment, even so, with a newborn it was hard and labor intensive (when Alaskans say "it's cold" - they mean outer space cold. Like -40'F...literally life threatening)

You can see a counselor who is more "Solution based" and use those terms.

Or tell them that you realize your situation may come to divorce but you'd like to "leave no stone unturned" to save the marriage and it's not b/c you are a martyr, but ... that is what would make you happiest.

Honestly, if I see a therapist, and I can't see much of a difference in my behavior or my h's within half a dozen visits, it's not working.

Either one or both of us are not trying hard enough OR the counselor isn't working for us. The "years of therapy" some couples go through, without significant change, are crazy wastes of time & money, imo.

Yes you must Detach more.

I saw some notes of yours that indicate she's not sure what she feels AND then that she does know, AND then that she wants out...but isn't ready to cut the cord...so she strings you along and when she thinks you might actually bolt or have a change of heart, she reels you back in to make sure you are STILL THERE WAITING and then she goes exploring again...it's pretty classic.

She may change her tune if she actually feared losing you...think about that.

Sure that MAY sound like a game, but in some ways, this IS like a game b/c she's being a high school girl now.

The whole "pursuer/distancer" dynamic does matter. It's not about showing her anger, but that you are now NOT at all relying on her for your life's happiness and while you must "fake it til you make it"< you will come to believe it in time.

What have you done that you think has helped, and what has not?

And what are your 180s? You didn't mention what your own work is.

It's the only thing you control, so don't gloss over it

You continue to focus on her and and that is keeping you stuck. Get unstuck.

Have you considered hiring a DB coach?

While I always recommend a multi pronged approach to any problem,

If I could only do ONE thing to save my m, I'd come here to this site and hire a DB coach.

Without Dbing, I'm positive we'd be divorce b/c I would have filed for divorce.

So lose the anger, in front of her. But don't pretend she's making smart choices either. It's okay to be baffled by her, and feel pity for her. I am, I do.
No judgement attached (guilt does not get them home. Believe me, I know this. Guilt is easily converted into resentmen,t which will be aimed at you as she justifies her conduct in the face of your attempts at judging her. That's why she keeps telling you what others say...to justify herself.

Don't argue with it...at all. You might ask her what she tells them that would generate THOSE replies...are they at all concerned about your d's?

Look at her, LISTEN and hear her. She's seeking validation of choices she knows (at some level) are not right.

Maybe even say "W, I don't know the people you are 'polling' very well, or what you've told them, but I don't think they know our situation or our d's needs as we do, & they don't share my priorities either...AND since there's nothing I can say or do to change your mind at the moment and I"ve got things to do so, I'll see you later"...and leave. Do not escalate. Be upbeat enough...resigned but BUSY GAL...

remember, The more anger you show her, the more judgement, the more justified she'll feel leaving or wanting to flee,

& you want to Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth...

don't make it harder for her to come home than it already will be...

Keep us posted.

Sorry this is so long...

[bustorama]

holy smokes!

[25yearsmlc]

yikes...even for ME, that's a long one...

I promise to be briefer "from this day forward"...

[sandi2]

That's our 25!