ILYBINILWY

[~ kd ~]

I just wanted to add something here for your consideration, CV:

Early on in my relationship with my W, I was motivated to be with her. For that reason, I did things I thought would please her. To not upset her. That worked (from my perspective) because the goal was to be with her, get married, have kids, and grow old, together. Now, from a boundary perspective, I would not make her breakfast in bed every Sunday morning (like her grandfather did for her grandmother) because it seemed to me like that was a bit of servitude. Something I was not prepared to do.

I could have done it and thought of it not as servitude, but rather that it was something that I wanted to do because it helped keep us connected. It would show her that I loved her. Her LL is possibly acts of service or more likely gifts. Breakfast in bed fulfils either of those LLs.

That said, it is not the fact that I did not provide her breakfast in bed every Sunday morning that ruined our R. Although it IS possible that it has become (one of) the reason(s) for our failed M.

Where I am going with this is, as time went on and I became jaded about the M (and certainly she was becoming jaded, as well... it was just that I can only go by my experience and perspective), I became less engaged on things that kept us connected (as in physical touch is also likely my W's LL). I did continue to provide acts of service, so it's possible that is not her LL, as it became very apparent that my acts of service were not good enough, from her perspective. But I continued to not buy her gifts, so again, it leads me to think that touch and gifts (rather than acts of service) are her LLs.

I say the above only as context. My context... of MY PERSPECTIVE... I have absolutely no idea what her thoughts and perspective are, around the breakdown of our M. Only that either I'm "not M material", that I did not provide enough financially to the family, that I did not pay enough attention to her when she wanted my attention.

That said, she changed in our R. She stopped engaging me as well. It was when she started (at minimum) emotionally engaging other men in a way that is similar to how one might engage a spouse, while also emotionally disengaging me at the same time, that became my motivation to truly change the M.

I left.

That did not help me save my M. But it certainly helped me in a big way, because eventually I stopped feeling like I was walking on eggshells. It allowed me to stop feeling like I was being taken advantage of. It allowed me to take a different look at our M and realize that, I no longer wanted to be with a woman who I felt did not appreciate me.

So in the end, what I did was for me. It did not cause my W to change. It simply allowed me to be better.

If my W would have changed because of my actions and wanted to work on the M, then I would be telling a different story, right now. It might be a story that I made changes, which changed my M, which allowed us to R.

But that... doesn't matter...

I am better now...

Until we are motivated to change ourselves... no matter how that looks... our sitch won't change... saying that one is motivated to change is quite different that actually changing...

[subguy]

Subguy, what's the difference in your case between a boundary and controlling? I'm sure there's more to it than what you wrote but you said that her "threatening me with divorce so that only I change" is controlling. I look at that as simply a boundary: "I have this issue with you; I don't care to have you treat me this way anymore; if you continue I will D you." The definition of boundaries is something I've always struggled with, I think mostly because H condemns my healthy boundaries so all it gets skewed in my head, so I'm just curious as to your perspective.

Well... I'm leaving because you have all the issues and you need to change not me. What would that sound like if your husband said that to you? If she said: "I have gone to counselling and you refuse. I have said we need to change or I need to leave to protect myself. I will give it my all and if you do not then I will have to leave." Just curious which one sounds controlling and which one sounds like protecting a boundary? Now with that, understand no abuse happened here: no mental, physical, spiritual or fiscal abuse. She dropped the bomb refuses to go to counselling (by herself for herself or with me) and left me with all the bills, house and swimming pool. I don't hate her, in fact I love her and hope she finds what she is looking for. At this point we have a different opinion on how to find happiness. I want contentment with myself with slices of life sprinkled in, the good the bad and the in between. I will stop judging my life by how I feel this minute, week, or month. Because my feelings will change as life unfolds for me. I hope this makes sense, I am not the best at expressing myself through writing.

My question (to which you said I was justifying) was just in response the many, many suggestions I read about people needing to "get happy with themselves." I absolutely agree that that's very important, even critical. But then what? It doesn't make us invincible. It doesn't mean we won't still be annoyed or get angry. It doesn't automatically make the other person look better in our eyes, in fact sometimes it makes them look worse because we're no longer willing to accept the cr@p. So then what? (Sorry if I came across badly in my question.)

Thats the point once you are good with you eg. healthy boundaries, good self esteem, etc. then making those decisions comes from a positive mind set not a dysfunctional one. Either this relationship needs to be healthy or your next. Do you want to carry your baggage from this R to another and go thru this crap again?? That is if you two go separate ways. I will agree that once we are happy with ourselves (a big catch phrase) things will not become magically good in all aspects of our lives, it just makes dealing with the bad so much easier.

Only you can say if your relationship is toxic but without working out your problems first, can you really say you would make a good decision for you? It's tough and painful as you well know.

I really wish you the best and all the happiness you can scratch out of life.

[~ kd ~]

oh, and one other thing (from a context of perspective, angle)...

My W was motivated to change the M. That motivation led her to seek emotional connection with others and (appear to) withhold it from me.

ie. HER changes motivated me to change.

That change... in the both of us... led to a common goal...

To not be M...

[subguy]

I'm not sure what you read, but just to clarify, H has been the one that has lied and destroyed my trust. You're really being a great person by taking the approach of "giving" like you are. I confess that I'm not there right now. I'm still trying to heal and work on myself and don't have anything in me right now to go above and beyond.

Now that's honesty, work on you and eventually you may be able to work on ya'll.

[Crazyville]

KD, I don't need to be right regarding my gma's sitch. I just don't understand the need for the discussion to make me "wrong." I consider it pretty irrelevant whether I'm right or wrong about hers, as I definitely know my own position, that being I don't care to be treated like a servant. If I'm projecting my perspective onto her sitch, so what? It's not like I'm discussing it with her and advising her that she needs to dump my deceased gpa because of the way he treats her. I'm not sure how this has even become such a focus topic.

You are still wanting your H to change. That waiting, makes you stuck. Stuck, makes you frustrated. Frustrated allows you to keep doing what you are doing, which does not appear to be helping you.

How am I stuck? What am I waiting for? The rest of my life is exactly how I would have it even if I was D'd from H. My R with H is simply what it is. It has changed. It has calmed (cooled?) significantly. We don't discuss our issues anymore, so there's more time to do our own things. There really isn't any conflict anymore. It just isn't any closer either.

I'm sorry you can't see change in me. I feel like I've changed a lot, especially in regards to my anger and expectations. I used to ask, "How do I get him to clean his office?" Now I ask, "How do I manage a healthy M when I know he's not going to honor my request to clean it?" Instead of asking, "How do I get him to turn his music down," I ask, "How do I still want to be in the same room with him when his music hurts my ears?" Instead of asking, "How do I get him to stop stealing a puzzle piece," I ask, "How do I deal with someone that steals my thunder and still enjoy being around him?" I don't expect him to stay awake during movies, and it doesn't even bother me anymore because I don't expect it to be an experience that we share. I don't think I'm doing much anymore to try to improve the R itself, just trying to figure out how I can maneuver some of the unpleasant realities associated with living with another (different) person.

HE will MATCH to YOUR changes... WHEN YOU CHANGE...

I meant to catch up on the challenge you gave me several weeks ago, to say something complimentary to him everyday. I was doing that up until a couple of days ago, but then intentionally stopped. It seems that my complimenting him makes him happy, and when he's happy, he rewards himself, (like rewarding himself with a cookie after losing 10 pounds on a diet,) and his method of rewarding himself is taking something from me. I found that he was encroaching on my boundaries again, expecting things from me that I'm clearly not ready for, like sex, so I stopped. So, sorry, but I guess I failed that challenge, not for lack of effort but because I didn't like the result.

How are you going to change, to make change in your R?
Are you motivated to actually doing that, permanently?

I can't answer that, KD, until I understand what "that" is.

[Knightyme]

I've been reading a lot about men and their general distaste for any discussion about feelings.

I don't know if I would describe it as a 'distaste' for discussions about feelings as much as I would describe it, generously as oblivious. Not willfully so... but naturally so. By nature, we see actions and reactions, and we don't always interpret those actions correctly. I thought my M was fine for months before the bomb. Evidently, they weren't because on the very surface they were. Looking back, I can see the signs... but that's of little help now. Now, I'm in the position that if I want a CHANCE at salvaging my M, I HAVE to pay attention to the 'feeling' part of it, in order to gain some kind of perspective.

And that's great, but as you said yourself, that doesn't change her. You're still in a R with a person that doesn't want to talk. So where to you go with that? How do you build a healthy M without discussion? How do you feel connected without conversation?

Well, I'll tell you that it doesn't help. I can say that the more I try and listen, the more I hear what she's really saying without coming out and saying anything. She's been 'talking' for a long time, but it's not the way I want to talk. She'll let bits and pieces slip. She'll vent. She'll have a moment of regret and say something. She'll say and do things on purpose to see if I'll go off on a rant, and in that send me a message. It's maddening to be honest, but it's on me to listen to what she says, what she means, and it's on me to try and interpret. It's not a 'healthy' discussion by any mean, but if I want to fix this, then I don't have to wait on her to talk before I decide to listen.

And perhaps it's his perspective that I'm too anal/perfectionist about his office. And it's his perspective that overall it just is not a problem that his office is a pit, that he's perfectly comfortable in dirt and clutter.

I told you that I see a lot of my wife in you. My wife loves the bed to be made. If it isn't made when we went to bed, she would make it, then get into bed. Me, I've never made the bed. It used to drive me crazy. We get to choose what drives us nuts. I'm a mess. I'm definitely the 'mad scientist' type. My W, on the other hand, loves to have everything 'put up', but she'll put things as opposed to put things up. So, we're in a full time scavenger hunt - even in good times. I'm 100% positive that she feels like you do, and I can see the other side. There are several solutions, but my guess is that your irritation with the office is probably more of a symptom of your bigger issues. It's kinda the way the sound of someone brushing their teeth is irritating when there are larger issues going on.

Having done that, now what? What does that do for me/us?

Well, in the short term, it makes me a better man. It makes me listen to my kids a better. I makes me more compassionate. When I REALLY try and understand things from her perspective, it makes it harder to stay mad at her when she does or says something hurtful. It makes it easier for me to forgive.

In the middle term, instead of reacting to her as I usually would, instead of stoking the flames... I find it easier to roll with the punches and short circuit the death spiral we get into.

In the long term, W will recognize that she's the only one in the fight and perhaps... perhaps... figure out that she can approach me without the fear that I'm going to go into lecture mode.

I'm still trying to heal and work on myself and don't have anything in me right now to go above and beyond.

I am sorry to hear that. I can't say this is easy. I can't say that it's easy to change my own nature - but natural hasn't worked for me, so I'm really trying super-natural. I also can't say that I'm doing alone. I've never spent more time on my knees praying in all of my life. I've never spent more time in the bible in all of my life. I've never learned so much about grace and forgiveness in all of my life.

I’ve never been willing to give so much of myself.

I'm learning more about myself than I have in my life, and through healing of myself. I'm learning strength, compassion, forgiveness. Through this, regardless of what W does, I will be a better man because of this.

[~ kd ~]

Just FYI, CV... I know that I was not intending to make you feel "wrong" about your grandparent's sitch.

See, that's (part of) what we're really getting at, here. You appear to be feeling like people are trying to make you wrong... which may translates to your possible need to be right... which really boils down to your own hurt feelings which are likely because you do not feel appreciated and that your are being taken advantage of...

That's a convoluted way of saying:

You feel like you are not appreciated in the M, as a spouse, or even as an individual. For that reason, you are protecting yourself in the only way you know how. Right now, that still includes you feeling like you need to be right (or in your words, to be not be made wrong, by others) and also looking at other relationships to gauge what is right or wrong in your own M, rationalizing it all into an appropriate context that works for you. ie. You are being wronged by your H and are justified to be doing what you are doing.

Again, that's neither right nor wrong, good nor bad, it simply is an objective assessment of what appears to be going on, from your words on these threads.

That... is... (objectively) a common theme in the mind of a WAS.

It comes out as projecting and finding fault and blame, using other Rs as examples to your own, unique sitch. It comes out as you trying to make your H change to suit you, before you will change to suit the M that you want.

That, is how it appears... out here...

I am really happy you have been able to see some changes in the M (which are positive) which are a result of the changes you have made in yourself.

What is unfortunate is, those changes weren't a habit. They were a tactic. That they were not working for you, you decided you would not do them. Not because it made your M worse, but because your H appeared more happy and wanted to be more with you, which you are finding fault in, so you stopped.

You would have to want to continue to be pleasant with your H, regardless of whether it saved your M or whether your H became the man you want him to be.

Here's an example from my book:

I continue to be pleasant to my W, regardless. I don't want to be with her, but I'm still pleasant with her. I still maintain that I will not blame her for the break down of the M. I still look at what my responsibility was to that end and continue to work on those things.

Every interaction that I have with my W now, appears to be fairly pleasant. Even the one where she asked me to file D because she wanted to change back to her maiden name, and not have to pay for it.

This Christmas day, when I picked up D10, my W came to the door, looked at me, and said, "Merry Christmas". Completely out of the blue. I wished her a Merry Christmas, in return. We carried on with getting D10 out the door.

Do I think that my W has changed into a better person, now? No. Am I pleasantly surprised that my W wished me a Merry Christmas this year? Yes. Did I expect it? No. Do I suddenly want to be with her? No. Do I think that she has changed her mind and now wants to work on our M and possibly R? No.

The point is, I will be pleasant with her. Regardless of whether it saves our M. Not because I want her to change. Not because I want to be friends with her. Just because, that's how I want to interact with people.

It appears to be working.

In a perfect M... in a M that I would want to have with my W... it would look like this:

She would stop blaming me for things for her unhappiness. She would appreciate the things I do for her, or at the very least, not make negative comments on the things that I do for her, the kids, the household. She would spend time with me... WITH ME... by ourselves... no phone, no distractions... just her and I, spending quality time, together. We would spend more time being playful.

I do not ever see that happening with her, because she is not motivated to be that person with me.

OTOH, I would be more financially supportive towards the household. I would continue to do what she asked me to do, when she asked me to do it, in the way she wants me to do it, because that apparently allows her to be happy. It gives her what ever she needs to get, from those types of interactions. I don't need to know what her reasons or motivations are.

Again, the above is moot, as she does not want to be with me.

So again, the point is that I am doing for me, to make changes in me (or in many cases, to become the person I was, when we met; because that's who I am and how I like to be), and that is making my sitch better. Even though my M is done.

[Crazyville]

Thanks for the clarification, KD. I'm sorry your sitch didn't R. I get that not all do. I think maybe we're not that far off from each other afterall. I know I've mentioned before, if it weren't for S12, I would make the same decision you did. Do you regret it? It doesn't sound like you do. Instead, I'm detaching much like you did except doing it in the context of roommates/co-parents. I would like it to be different, but I could say that about a whole lot of things that I can do absolutely nothing about (like the fact that I didn't go to college 20 years ago.) I do what I can, prepare for what I can, and accept the rest for what it is. Discernment of the difference is the only real difficulty for me.

Subguy, I think this is where I have an odd perspective on the failure of M, perhaps. It sounds to me like your W was content with who/what she was. Rather than continuing to expect you to change to accommodate what she needed, she opted to leave you as you are and release you (aka D.) Afterall, problems are really only problems from the outside looking in. It is very possible that your W reflected on herself and didn't see anything she needed to change, but could see a ton of things that she didn't like to deal with in regards to you. You, on the other hand, perhaps saw nothing wrong with your actions and could see a slew of things that she did that you took issue with. Who's to say which is right? Neither of you were happy with each other. Why is D such a bad thing in that case?

It's the same thing with my H's office. He doesn't have a problem with it. I do. Who's right? It really doesn't matter, and can't be proven one way or the other by human standards. But if H is not willing or able to pick up after himself, and I'm not willing or able to get comfortable living his lifestyle, then what is the value in staying together? Some contest to see who can tolerate more? Who can be the bigger martyr? It seems like "freedom" is a gift to both of us, even if it comes in the form of D. Not just because of the office, but the entire list of grievances we hold against each other.

Otherwise, it sounds like cake-eating in M. "I want all the benefits of living my life as if I was single without having to live in consideration of a roommate, while reaping all the benefits of being M'd." I've asked H to clean his office. He hasn't. It's not that he's diametrically opposed to it, he just doesn't put in the effort. So how can I not possibly believe that his "indifferent, single, no roommate consideration lifestyle" is more important than me? How can I not possibly believe that he would very much enjoy living in a situation that he could pit out to his heart's content? A bonafide bachelor pad?

In the extreme, isn't this the same thing that happens with an EA? If my H is chatting up his college sweetheart and I tell him I don't like it, but he keeps doing it because he likes it and sees nothing wrong with it, how can I not possibly believe that his interest in his college sweetheart is more valuable to him than his interest in me? How is it different? How is it that I'm not doing him a favor by saying, "I see your priority and I don't have the right to demand something different. You are an adult and can make your own decisions. I grant you that privilege. Likewise, I'm going exercise my right as an adult and choose not to stick around"?

I'm sure this sounds like WAS script. It isn't any less sincere than the script played out by the LBS at BD.

[AJM]

I've been reading a lot about men and their general distaste for any discussion about feelings. From what you presented, you seem to run against the "norm," at least based upon the published stats. Considering what I've read and applying it in reverse in your case, I can see how your W might interpret your actions in a negative way, and how you might consider her response as "not caring" when she clams up.

Um, no. Statistics can be interpreted a lot of ways and are always revised with "new" information. For example, did you know that half of all college students score below average on their entrance exams? It's a tragedy!

So this is wonderful in that it sounds like you and I are in the same position relationally in the discussion arena. So what do you do? I can certainly see that you would want to be less animated, less loud, less vocal in general

That's not what I read. What I read is that he wants to be more attentive. To be a better husband. To listen differently rather than the way he always has. Different perspective of the same words I guess...

It comes out as projecting and finding fault and blame, using other Rs as examples to your own, unique sitch. It comes out as you trying to make your H change to suit you, before you will change to suit the M that you want.

That's also what I've seen in this. Regardless of the intent, that is how it comes across. Likely to him as well. He seems to be digging his heals in...

The point is, I will be pleasant with her. Regardless of whether it saves our M. Not because I want her to change. Not because I want to be friends with her. Just because, that's how I want to interact with people.

Exactly. Why do it this way? Because it's how you want to be. It's about making yourself whole.

So again, the point is that I am doing for me, to make changes in me (or in many cases, to become the person I was, when we met; because that's who I am and how I like to be), and that is making my sitch better. Even though my M is done.

I would like it to be different, but I could say that about a whole lot of things that I can do absolutely nothing about

Like, you'd like to lose 10 lbs but haven't started yet? Oh wait, that's your H. You don't wait to change things, right?

Why is D such a bad thing in that case?

Because you didn't fix your own problems. You'll likely just a) destroy your child's self-esteem and b) carry the issues with you into the next R. That's life. Fix it now or fix it later.

It's the same thing with my H's office. He doesn't have a problem with it. I do. Who's right? It really doesn't matter, and can't be proven one way or the other by human standards. But if H is not willing or able to pick up after himself, and I'm not willing or able to get comfortable living his lifestyle, then what is the value in staying together?

Does he leave the cap off the toothpaste too?


I don't think it sounds like script in this case. If it did, you'd sound differently and likely wouldn't bother to be here at all. You seem genuine in figuring this out. I applaud this regardless of the outcome because it means you'll be working on you. You'll always have you regardless of whatever else is in your life. Make you the best, right?

Peace,
AJ

[Crazyville]

I wish there was a way to resequence these posts. I'm afraid they're going to read out of context because of the over-posting. Oh well, hope for the best.

Knightyme, I also understand the oblivion part of men, at least as you've explained it. I had gone a step further and was referring to what I've read repeatedly in that the 5 most frightening words a man can hear are, "Honey, we need to talk." I understand that doesn't apply to *all* men, but it definitely applies to my H. I also agree that there is a *lot* of communication that goes on without ever saying a word. We all would do well to pay attention to those things.

I'm curious, though, what are the "several solutions" to the office issue that you hinted at? There are certainly deeper issues, but I had this problem with him even when we were first M'd and madly in love. I have the issue with my S12 whom I obviously love dearly. I hope you'll just trust me when I say that I'm not anal about it, just driven more by practicality. I can't stand spending 45 minutes looking for a receipt because someone didn't take 15 seconds to file it, for example. And that's commonplace with us, unfortunately.

In the middle term, instead of reacting to her as I usually would, instead of stoking the flames... I find it easier to roll with the punches and short circuit the death spiral we get into.

In the long term, W will recognize that she's the only one in the fight and perhaps... perhaps... figure out that she can approach me without the fear that I'm going to go into lecture mode.

I like this. It's not terribly applicable to my sitch, but at least somewhat. I've done this (I think) in regards to H and his intense dislike for conversation. There were certainly obvious clues that I missed in the past. The 2x4 for me was his using an entire counseling session a couple weeks ago to address it. Not to figure out how to better deal with it, but how to get out of it. Okay, done. I'm not into beating my head against a brick wall. Consider this one of the things I accept as not being able to do anything about. So I don't approach him and let him approach me if he wants. He doesn't, so it's nice and quiet. Maybe in time. I hope I'm willing to talk when he wants to.

I commend and envy your spiritual faith. He's always been too quiet for me. Okay, okay, I've always been to deaf to Him, I get that. I still try, though, probably always will. What better path is there?