Just to make this clear from the beginning- I will not divorce my wife. I am fully committed to making my marriage work and have no need or desire to leave her. If the only advice people can offer is divorce, than just save your time and don’t respond.
In 2007, when my wife was 23 and we were living in CA, we were 4 weeks away from getting married. She went on a “bachelorette trip” with 5 of her friends, her sister and her mother to Lake Tahoe. While there, she and her best friend met two guys from Washington state. They spent the entire weekend with these 2 guys doing god knows what (I actually know now). When they came back from the trip, my wife confessed to me that she had "kissed a guy." I was, of course, upset, and didn't believe anything she was telling me. Her story was that they had gone back to these guys' room to "hang out and watch tv". She said that she felt uncomfortable and so she left, leaving her best friend alone with these two guys. She claimed that she did not know what, if anything, her friend had done with them. She admitted that on the night previous, she had been dancing with this guy in a club and had kissed him. She claimed that the kiss only lasted a split second and that they felt so guilty, they broke apart and just hung out from that point forward. I, of course, did not believe her so I called all of her girlfriends that were there that weekend to get their versions of the story. As it turns out, the kiss lasted long enough for one of the girls to see them kissing, get up from her table, walk across the dance floor, and break them up. I went back to her with this and she admitted then that she had also gone back to his room. She claimed that nothing had happened and that she left their room when she felt uncomfortable. I had no other way to disprove this, so I had to believe her story. As it turns also turns out, when she had come home from her trip, she and her best friend had set up a fake Facebook account so that they could stay in contact with these guys. When I found out about the Facebook account, she immediately deleted it. She apologized over and over again, I chose to accept her apology, and we got married.
Over the course of the next 5 years, our marriage disintegrated. We would go months without having sex. We fought constantly, sometimes on the verge of getting physical. She made threats, was constantly trying to manipulate and control me, and would verbally abuse me. When I tried to talk about our sex life, she would call me a “pervert” and a “freak” and accuse me of being obsessed with sex. After awhile, I began to get suspicious of this behavior and thought that it might be because of some guilt she was feeling. The only thing I could think of was that maybe she was feeling guilt over cheating on me and the only time I could think of as a possibility of her cheating on me was on this trip to Tahoe. So, I asked her about it. Several times. She always refused to talk about it and would get very defensive.
In 2009, my employer relocated us to Washington state. It never occurred to me that this might cause some problems. Well, after years of fighting and not having a healthy sex life, I decided to do some digging. In 2011, I started going through her emails and her Facebook account, but could not find anything. I contacted the friend that had broken up their “kiss” on the dance floor, and she recounted for me what she could remember. This time, she told me that on the last day they were in Tahoe, these two guys had joined the entire group for breakfast. This was new information for me. As far as I had been told, they never saw each other again after being in their hotel room. So, now, I went into full on detective mode. I reactivated the secret Facebook account from 2007 and, lo and behold, it was still friends with one of the guys from Tahoe. I began clicking through his photo albums and found an album from their trip to Tahoe. And what did I find? Pictures of my wife’s best friend in bed with one of the guys. Not naked, but in the bed. I started compiling as much info about the two guys as I could, so that I could approach my wife and ask her what really happened. I contacted the best friend and asked her some very general questions that might indicate whether she was lying or not. And she was. Because of these lies, the pictures, and my gut feelings, I approached my wife. She got angry. She got defensive. She started banging her fists on the table. “I did not have sex with him!”, and the like. During this conversation, she admitted that she actually stayed in the room, but was so drunk, she spent most of the time in their bathroom, vomiting. She admitted that her guy, came into the bathroom with her to “hold her hair back.” By this point, I believed NOTHING she had to say. The conversation ended in a stalemate, and we went our separate ways. Little did she know, I had set up a recorder in our kitchen the next morning, just in case she felt like calling her best friend to sort out their stories. And, oh boy, did she. She actually called her mother and said (and this is an exact quote), “Having sex with someone before you’re married is not the same as having sex with someone after you’re married. I wasn’t married. I might have made a promise to marry him, but it’s not like I took a vow.” That night, when I came home and listened to the recording, I went into overdrive. Obviously, I could not trust anything she was saying. So I contacted the other guy. As it turns out, we now live a convenient 40 minutes away from him! After I contacted him, he contacted my wife’s best friend, who instructed him to lie. Which he did. She contacted my wife and they concocted a story. My wife emailed him saying, “I was so drunk, I don’t remember what happened! Can you fill me in?” He emails my wife back and tells her that she had performed oral sex on him in the bathroom. She was not getting sick, as she claimed. They had gone into the bathroom deliberately to fool around. He then emails me telling me the same thing, but also with a “get over it” message.
From this point forward, I will be hazy with the details. I can’t take any chance of my wife seeing this. She claims that she does not remember ANY of it. She claims that he might have raped her. She claims that it’s “possible” they might have had full on sex, maybe even anal. But she doesn’t know, because she can’t remember. However, the recorded conversation between she and her mom where she admitted having sex with him, took place 2 days before he told her “what really happened.” After a full year of confronting her with this proof, she finally admitted that she did remember giving him oral sex. The reason I am going to be hazy, is because I can prove that his story, her story, and her friend’s story is all a lie. However, if I confront her with this, she will only admit to what I can prove. And from this point forward, I will always have to wonder if she’s only being honest about things I already know about. I will always have to wonder if I need to be a detective. I want her to willing come to me and tell me the truth. I have told her that I know they are all lying. I have told her that I can prove it. But, I have also told her that I will never show her my proof until she comes forward of her own free will and tells the truth. I have told her that I will never be able to trust her until she does.
I have been going to counseling since the day I found out that she had physically cheated on me. We have been going to marriage counseling for just as long. She has been seeing her own therapist, as well. But I have no idea if that is working and I am not allowed to ask what they talk about. Through my own counseling, I have learned not to make threats or give ultimatums so I stopped doing that over a year ago. I have learned to stand up for myself and for my needs, without being aggressive. I have been explicitly clear with my wife about my needs and continue to stand by them. However, my wife still will not come clean. I believe she is under the impression that if we just aren’t talking about “it”, then she is getting away with it.
Believe it or not, our marriage has actually improved in some areas. She is no longer verbally abusive. She is working incredibly hard on being more supportive of me, my family, and my career. Our sex life has improved dramatically. She is constantly reminding me that she loves me (which she never did before) and we are able to talk about a lot of things we weren’t able to in the past. AS LONG AS, we don’t talk about “it”. She still gets defensive, she still avoids the topic, and she still won’t tell the truth. She stopped going to our marriage counselor, though she still sees her personal one. Again, I have no idea what they do there.
My question to everyone is: Without making threats or ultimatums, what can I do to get her to tell the truth? If it’s not possible, what can I do to wrap my mind around the fact that my wife is lying and that she will most likely lie to me for the rest of our lives? I have forgiven her for cheating on me. But, I will not forgive her for lying until the lying stops. If that means that I live in anger for the next 60 years, then I will do that. I don’t want to live with this anger, but I believe being angry is a better option than burying my head in the sand and trying to pretend everything is okay. Showing her the proof I have is not an option, either. I have drawn a line in my life that I will not accept being lied to anymore. Showing her the proof feels to me like I have to prove myself to her, when it should be the other way around. So I’m not going to do that.
Lately, I have been debating whether or not to push her to get a polygraph test. Any feelings on this idea?
I know this was a long post, and I have left a lot of stuff out, so if there are any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.
My question to everyone is: Without making threats or ultimatums, what can I do to get her to tell the truth? If it’s not possible, what can I do to wrap my mind around the fact that my wife is lying and that she will most likely lie to me for the rest of our lives?
Eric,
It is highly likely that you have married a woman of poor moral quality, and that she will continue to lie to you and engage in more of this same behavior. As Chatter says above, it's really up to YOU what you want to do about it. You've already basically eliminated not only divorce from your decision-making equation, but also even issuing any kind of a hard-line stance, so you're kind of tying the hands of those of us who might normally advocate some of the stronger approaches that I think are required in your situation.
The other thing that struck me is that several times in your long post you say "Needless to say, I didn't believe a word she was saying," or "I knew she was lying to me" and yet you continue to ask her for the truth.
The "I know all about ________, and it needs to stop. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage" approach that Chatter is advocating is the best way to go, for sure.
What ARE your boundaries? What are your dealbreakers? You come across as a "I will stay married to her at all costs" type, and while I am STRONGLY pro-marriage (and successfully saved my marriage after my wife's affair 5 1/2 years ago), it's been my experience that those that approach these types of situations by immediately eliminating some of the tougher options . . . fail.
I'm not saying that divorce needs to be one of your options . . . yet. But you do need to have SOME non-negotiable "Boundaries of Personal Integrity" here. Not only have you been tolerating five years of serial infidelity and deceit, but she is also verbally abusive towards you.
BELIEVE me, the no-divorce idea was not something that I took lightly or decided immediately. It took about 6 months of personal counseling before I made the decision that my marriage was worth working on and trying to save. We do have children, but that is not why I'm staying. I've been through a divorce before (with a child), so I fully understand that two people should not stay married solely for their children. And as far as threats and ultimatums go, that again took about 6 months of therapy to realize that they don't work, they don't inspire trust, and they just end up pushing her further away.
As far as boundaries and deal breakers go, physical abuse towards myself or my children would be the only thing that would cause me to leave my marriage immediately. I think that most other things can be addressed in counseling, when needed. However, getting cheated on again would be another dealbreaker.
And that's where my conundrum is. Since last year, I have said over and over again, whenever I hear her lie, "That's not true. Please tell me the truth." The problem I have is that I can't ever say that without getting angry. My anger scares her, gives her reason to shut down, and we just stop talking. So the real question is: How do I keep saying that, so that I stand up for myself, so that the message that I will not accept being lied to is crystal clear, and do it in a way that inspires trust and shows her that no matter what she tells me, I will not leave her, I will not hit her, and that we can both begin healing as soon as she does?
PS- When my wife was a child, she was severely beaten by her father over things like grades, sports performances, etc. When she was a teen, her mother went to jail for stealing from her employer. So, she has severe abandonment issues, and a VERY unhealthy fear of telling the truth and/or getting caught. Tell the truth- get beat. Get caught- go to jail. These are the underlying issues that we are dealing with.
deal with the question if you need to know the truth.
Since you know she lies when you ask.
Why do you ask? Since you know the outcome how you two have defined it.
Since you know the truth what is the purpose of hearing the truth?
Do you need details? Or just generalization?
So instead of defining this as the major issue in your marriage why not look at the symptoms instead.
Work towards learning those. Which I can see are:
Communication. Trust. Respect. Truthful and realistic view of your spouse.
Abandonment issues... etc... are her issues. Not yours. So remove them from your table. They are not yours to work on. Nor are they yours to fix. Same with her lies. This is who she is. She lies. It is solely up to her to fix that.
This is called personal growth. Either you both capable of it. Or one of you is. Or neither.
Personal growth comes through self confidence and boundaries. Not obfuscation and Ultimatums.
When you set a boundary such as.
I have decided that I will not be a part of a conversation where one person is not being truthful. When a lie is spoken I will remove myself from the conversation.
What happens is you are in a conversation. When a lie is spoken. You state your boundary. In a calm manor. Then you pause to let the message sink in. Carry on with your communication. Then when the lie happens. You state that you will no longer be apart of the conversation because your boundary has been tested. And you end the conversation and walk away in a very calm manor.
That is not an ultimatum. It is communication about your expectations in communication. The other person has the choice to respect your boundaries and then you have the choice of respecting your personal integrity.
People will learn to respect your boundaries or you remove them from your life.
But you need to learn what a boundary is and how it is different from an Ultimatum.
If someone calls your boundary about lies an Ultimatum or controlling then they are trying to confuse you and step past your boundary.
You need to learn this. You need to learn that you do not discuss your boundaries. You state them and live by them with repeatable and consistent actions. You seem to want to please people around you. Mr. Nice guy gets you nowhere. You should go read some of the Men self help books and No more Mr. Nice guy or Hold on to your nuts. And learn the difference between anger and boundaries. Being nice and being passive aggressive.
Take this problem from that night and use it to shape you into a better man.
Take Care.
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
Eric, I'm going to be straight with you. I'm not for divorce. I do not think much of YOUR BEHAVIOR here...
so get a helmet on and be ready to take some firm feedback.
Without reading what ANYONE else has said, and just replying to your post alone, here's my take on it, piece by piece.
You SAY you want to stay married. But for some reason you've insisted on obessing (and it IS obessing, regardless of what you discovered, that does not make the obsession right.) It's an unhealthy focus of yours to keep reliving what you IMAGINE happened or what did happen YEARS ago...and for what?
You said a past transgression is not a deal breaker... THEN YOU SAY the marriage has improved a lot.
So, WHY ARE YOU WRECKING IT??
YOU'RE SABOTAGING HER EFFORTS B/C YOU WANT HER TO FAIL...Why?
YOU want to HOLD THIS OVER HER HEAD THE REST OF YOUR LIVES??
What other reason could there be but for you to try and harm her self esteem to....to make you feel better?? To keep punishing her?? WHY WOULD YOU KEEP RUBBING HER FACE IN THIS AND TRY TO CATCH HER in a lie? STOP setting her up. Either end the marriage OR do what the VOWS say and
go "FROM THIS DAY FORWARD" and leave the past where it belongs...in the past.
What more do you want from her? She lies b/c you cannot handle ANY mistake on her Part
(if I had told my h that I kissed a guy at my bachelorette party and felt bad about it, he'd NEVER have brought it up again. For some reason you kept pushing her, which means YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO FORGIVE OR YOU DO NOT WANT TO... so why on earth would she tell you more???)
You'd never believe whatever she tells you and it serves NO GOOD purpose. YOU need to dig deep and ask yourself why it is you insist on this weird mean spirited need to be declared RIGHT and her WRONG...
do you love her OR
Do you simply not want to "lose the game" and be the rejected one??
ARE you really confident you have been a great husband to her and that the only issue
YOU have is trust? B/c let me tell you, I don't buy it. If she's a woman worth marrying then there are problems on both ends but all we hear from you is how bad she has treated you.
Your detective work, to me, sounds nutty and controlling.
Who wants to live like that?? Why would someone want that information........ Only someone looking for a reason to leave...but you say you WILL NOT leave...
so then, what is it you can possibly gain from this digging into the past? Wouldn't your energy be better served working on YOU?? Is it that you want to be declared a victim or the "right" one,
or what? Your tone is so judgemental and suspicious throughout
and even when you are getting what most men here would crave, MORE attention MORE love, MORE truth and an improved marriage...you still are not satisfied b/c you MUST know what happened years ago?
The way you write this it's as if SHE planned the move to Washington state/
To me, you seem like a man who is pushing his wife into OM's arms. Back off....learn to forgive and move on.
Originally Posted By: Eric999
Just to make this clear from the beginning- I will not divorce my wife. I am fully committed to making my marriage work and have no need or desire to leave her. If the only advice people can offer is divorce, than just save your time and don’t respond.
In 2007, when my wife was 23 and we were living in CA, we were 4 weeks away from getting married. She went on a “bachelorette trip” with 5 of her friends, her sister and her mother to Lake Tahoe. While there, she and her best friend met two guys from Washington state. They spent the entire weekend with these 2 guys doing god knows what (I actually know now). When they came back from the trip, my wife confessed to me that she had "kissed a guy." I was, of course, upset, and didn't believe anything she was telling me. what's with the "didn't believe anything she was telling me"...why not?? Why should she volunteer any info if you refuse to believe her?
Is your family the type to hold grudges and throw someone's mistakes in their face the rest of their lives?
I only ask b/c I cannot understand marrying someone whom you do not believe AND I don't get why she'd marry someone who does NOT believe anything she says,
yeah, you read that right. Why'd SHE MARRY YOU if you believe she's a liar?
Her story was that they had gone back to these guys' room to "hang out and watch tv". She said that she felt uncomfortable and so she left, leaving her best friend alone with these two guys. She claimed that she did not know what, if anything, her friend had done with them. She admitted that on the night previous, she had been dancing with this guy in a club and had kissed him. She claimed that the kiss only lasted a split second and that they felt so guilty, they broke apart and just hung out from that point forward. all in the past...enough!
I, of course, did not believe her so I called all of her girlfriends that were there that weekend to get their versions of the story. Wow, gee I bet her girlfriends think you are a great trusting loving man who wants what is best for his wife. You'd NEVER TRY TO SHAME HER to find out details from an event of years ago and go public with it...
and "of course" you did not believe her....Why say "of course"??? I wish you could know how you sound to ME, and no, I have not cheated on my h. I've been tempted but thank God he never acted like you have...
As it turns out, the kiss lasted long enough for one of the girls to see them kissing, get up from her table, walk across the dance floor, and break them up. I went back to her with this and she admitted then that she had also gone back to his room. She claimed that nothing had happened and that she left their room when she felt uncomfortable. still discussing what happened before you married years ago? Oh...sigh...
I had no other way to disprove this, so I had to believe her story. Is THAT^^^ the "test" for your trust level? If you cannot prove her guilty, you're stuck pretending like you believe her but "of course" you do not.
Lovely.
As it turns also turns out, when she had come home from her trip, she and her best friend had set up a fake Facebook account so that they could stay in contact with these guys. When I found out about the Facebook account, she immediately deleted it. She apologized over and over again, I chose to accept her apology, and we got married. Once you accept an apology, IN MY OPINION, it's a done deal never to be brought up again. You do NOT get to throw it in her face or check it out some more b/c SHE apologized and you accepted it. That means it's over.
I'm not talking about added issues but the PAST ones...if she apologized and deletes it, learn to Shut up and let it go
OR GET A DIVORCE...but you don't get to stay married AND keep torturing her or yourself. You cannot hold this over her head like the Sword of Damacles...or you'll never be happily married to anyone.
No long term marriages survive without forgiveness...learn what that word means. OR end things.
Over the course of the next 5 years, our marriage disintegrated. We would go months without having sex. We fought constantly, sometimes on the verge of getting physical. She made threats, was constantly trying to manipulate and control me, and would verbally abuse me. 1) did SHE do all the "wrong" things and you were an innocent victim in all this? That's how it reads, which is highly unlikely...
2) did you go to counselling? If not, why not?
3) did you ever ask her what YOU could do to improve as her partner??
When I tried to talk about our sex life, she would call me a “pervert” and a “freak” and accuse me of being obsessed with sex. After awhile, I began to get suspicious of this behavior and thought that it might be because of some guilt she was feeling.
"guilt SHE..."
You assume, again, it's all about HER (NOT YOU!!!)
and then you mind read about WHY she's being "So wrong" to you, and you assume, again, the worst about HER...
did it ever, even once, occur to you that YOUR BEHAVIOR might make her miss being with a man who isn't trying to guilt her?
I've never seen guilt get a marriage to last for long. It builds resentment. That's why when someone shames the wayward spouse into returning AND does nothing to work on themselves, the returning spouse eventually leaves again.
He/She gets tired of feeling like the bad guy who did something wrong "for no reason" and never gets to complain about their spouse b/c after all, THEY had an affair and therefore they are never allowed to voice a complaint...
it does not work. Even if it were moral, which it isn't, it does not work.
Ever think that YOU MAY have played a role in her choices?
Don't think for a second I condone adultery IF THAT even happened...but I do not believe your description of events happened without any flaws on YOUR END and you are all you control. Why not work on you?
You spend far FAR too much energy trying to fix HER, but you cannot. And it's not your job to fix her or "teach her a lesson."
My DB coach said that to me 6 years ago and it was a real eye opener...
it's not our job to show our spouses the consequences of their actions. Life/God does that.
So stop "fixing" all her flaws. Look in the mirror and work on yours.
ANd besides, surely there is something in you that might need some serious tweaking...
The only thing I could think of was that maybe she was feeling guilt over cheating on me and the only time I could think of as a possibility of her cheating on me was on this trip to Tahoe. seriously? The ONLY THING you could think of to explain your marital problems was an event that took place before you married IN WHICH SHE DID WRONG?
If that were true, which it wasn't, did it ever occur to you to think
YOU might want to let it go?
Who'd stick around someone constantly reminding them of their screw up which SHE apologized for AND which you supposedly accepted?
I'm just shaking my head... amazed you never thought YOU might be part of the problems in your marriage...
So, I asked her about it. Several times. She always refused to talk about it and would get very defensive. THEN STOP PLANTING IDEAS LIKE THAT IN HER HEAD....drop it. Do you do this with other issues in the marriage?
If she dents the car, or gets a speeding ticket, OR makes a mistake with dinner OR anything in her life....be honest... how many times do you bring it up?
In 2009, my employer relocated us to Washington state. It never occurred to me that this might cause some problems. Well, after years of fighting and not having a healthy sex life, I decided to do some digging. YAY...you're going to dig deep into your issues and resolve to become a better husband...a man only a fool would leave...
Oh wait, NO...you're going to keep looking for HER FLAWS...ah, I get it. In YOUR world view,
Only she makes mistakes, you are a victim and you won't leave.
But since you cannot change HER, what is your goal here?
See, We don't tell you how to fix others...we help support you in Getting A Life and not depending on another person for your own happiness
and we help support your own self improvement efforts b/c we all found that when WE fix OURSELVES
our lives inevitably improve. Sometimes we save our marriages that way too.
In 2011, I started going through her emails and her Facebook account, but could not find anything. but "of course" you kept digging into HER stuff...not yours.
I contacted the friend that had broken up their “kiss” on the dance floor, and she recounted for me what she could remember. This time, she told me that on the last day they were in Tahoe, these two guys had joined the entire group for breakfast. This was new information for me. As far as I had been told, they never saw each other again after being in their hotel room.
it is all from the past...let it go. Yes it's a "new" detail for you BUT of an item you SUPPOSEDLY let go of, on your wedding day when you said "from this day forward" you were not supposed to keep looking for more dirt.
And "dirt" is what this is. LET IT GO or make a new choice about your marriage b/c it sounds like you want to punish her as if you have not done it enough.
What does your counselor tell you about YOU? I fear her mc will tell her she needs to get out of a marriage in which her husband never lets go of the past mistake she made...
and honestly, I would think someone her age would feel so bad about herself that at some point she'd look elsewhere for validation.
Not from you. You seem to want to shame her. That's not loving. That's not moral.
It's not coming from a good place in your heart.
I'd ask you this, on this night of Christmas Eve (if you are a Christian)
what you think the loving thing to do is for YOU.
Is it really to "go on full detective mode" (as if you weren't before??)
No it's not. Let go of the past or be doomed to repeat it. She learned whatever she could from it, and now this is all just a destructive force in your marriage and from where I sit, you are inflicting the damage....NOT her.
So, now, I went into full on detective mode. I reactivated the secret Facebook account from 2007 and, lo and behold, it was still friends with one of the guys from Tahoe. just b/c you found something off, or even BAD, does not make YOUR behavior reasonable OR RIGHT.
You sound as if you think testing her underwear and attaching a GPS to her car and tapping her phone is reasonable...half of which you have already done.
But This is NOT the way to have a happy or healthy marriage. You are NOT helping your cause.
I began clicking through his photo albums and found an album from their trip to Tahoe. And what did I find? Pictures of my wife’s best friend in bed with one of the guys. Not naked, but in the bed. I started compiling as much info about the two guys as I could, so that I could approach my wife and ask her what really happened. I contacted the best friend and asked her some very general questions that might indicate whether she was lying or not. And she was. Because of these lies, the pictures, and my gut feelings, I approached my wife. Hear me please. Listen carefully...
If something from BEFORE we married came up, and my h had accepted my less than fully truthful version of events and we had married and were working on things...
but then he kept digging and he kept bringing it up years later, and then called other people and involved them,
honestly, I believe I'd leave him. And we have 3 kids & have been married decades.
But this^^ behavior of YOURS is not normal or healthy or loving or acceptable. Period.
You need to get some help.
She got angry. She got defensive. She started banging her fists on the table. “I did not have sex with him!”, and the like. During this conversation, she admitted that she actually stayed in the room, but was so drunk, she spent most of the time in their bathroom, vomiting. She admitted that her guy, came into the bathroom with her to “hold her hair back.” you kept pushing her to amend for the past AGAIN...you're blowing it if you think acting like a nut will keep you married.
By this point, I believed NOTHING she had to say.
correction, you NEVER have believed her. And you make that clear with the follow up detective work. The more she admits, the more you dig.
She has nothing to gain from admitting anything to you. You will only bring THOSE admissions up againn and again the rest of her life.
Soon you'll give her no choice but to leave you OR Live the rest of her life with you throwing this crap in her face all the time
and making demands on her as if you are 100% perfect and she's lucky to get the scraps off your table.
I have to ask what your prior relationships with women were like. ANd your relationship with your mom?
Do you dislike women? Do you distrust all of us? What was your parent's marriage like?
The conversation ended in a stalemate, and we went our separate ways. so nothing was resolved in a healthy way. Great...superproductive. YOU learned nothing about how to communicate with her.
Little did she know, I had set up a recorder in our kitchen the next morning, just in case she felt like calling her best friend to sort out their stories. And, oh boy, did she.
I now do not believe you are a real person. You are here trolling to annoy us with fake concern about a marriage.
No man would act this way and pretend he wanted to stay married when he behaves like a spy on his own wife. If you're for real, you need help.
You are creating the very thing you most fear, by pushing and prodding and manipulating and guilting her and trying to shame her
you'll push her right into the arms of an Other Man...
She actually called her mother and said (and this is an exact quote), “Having sex with someone before you’re married is not the same as having sex with someone after you’re married. I wasn’t married. I might have made a promise to marry him, but it’s not like I took a vow.” ^^^ all pretty much true.
But so what? You're still a victim, right? You still get to hold it over her head and BLAME her for all the marriage problems RIGHT??
You're still "Right" and she's still "Wrong".
Do you want to be "right" or do you want to be "happy"? Sometimes you do not get both.
In this case I happen to think your behavior since the marriage, has been wildly inappropriate.
So no, I don't see you as being "right" OR Happy. You must change YOU.
That night, when I came home and listened to the recording, I went into overdrive. how could that be any different than before? You're always in overdrive with her...no energy spent on self improvement for YOU...just worrying about what SHE DID 5 YEARS AGO... Obviously, I could not trust anything she was saying. What's new?? You never trusted anything she said anyway...read your words!
So I contacted the other guy. WHY? They're not in touch NOW! Nothing NEW happened....man you are borrowing trouble big time.
As it turns out, we now live a convenient 40 minutes away from him! Did She force YOUR employer to move HER to be near HIM??? Do you know how wacky you sound? You think this is a conspiracy or what?
After I contacted him, he contacted my wife’s best friend, who instructed him to lie. Which he did. She contacted my wife and they concocted a story. My wife emailed him saying, “I was so drunk, I don’t remember what happened! Can you fill me in?” He emails my wife back and tells her that she had performed oral sex on him in the bathroom. She was not getting sick, as she claimed. They had gone into the bathroom deliberately to fool around. He then emails me telling me the same thing, but also with a “get over it” message. just so we are ALL clear, this happend before you got married?
Your wife lied about it THEN, but admitted some wrongdoing, and apologized for it and you accepted her apology. And ALL THIS "NEW" STUFF...ALL of it relates to the same damn event?
LET IT GO!
Seriously, this is a no brainer...If you are a real person.
I still think you might be here trolling which bugs me b/c real people come here in pain trying to save their marriages...
From this point forward, I will be hazy with the details.
How about "From this day forward" YOU KEEP YOUR VOWS and stop keeping a record of wrongs?
Those words are in most vows for a good reason. Think hard. Her "wrongs" are not added, they are all from the same event.
YOU are wrong to do this to her and to your marriage.
You do so at your marriage's peril.
I can’t take any chance of my wife seeing this. b/c she'll leave you? I know I would. You sound nuttier as this post goes on.
I can't comment much more. You're literally upsetting me so much and I don't mean your wife's behavior or her comments. But yours.
You are so angry and self righteous and weird about this PAST EVENT that I hope you wake up. You're on a self destruct mode now....seriously...there is no good to come of your acting like this.
Soon, you'll make others think (if they don't already) that you are a possessive controlling freaky paranoid angry man to be married to....and
your wife will feel justified leaving you.
She claims that she does not remember ANY of it. She claims that he might have raped her. She claims that it’s “possible” they might have had full on sex, maybe even anal. But she doesn’t know, because she can’t remember. However, the recorded conversation between she and her mom where she admitted having sex with him, took place 2 days before he told her “what really happened.” WHO CARES ABOUT ALL THESE DETAILS??
Do you want to know if she had an orgasm? Why???
After a full year of confronting her with this proof, RE WORD that to "a full year of more punishing relentless torture"
she finally admitted that she did remember giving him oral sex. The reason I am going to be hazy, is because I can prove that his story, her story, and her friend’s story is all a lie who cares? And why would she ever tell you the truth? Without a video you won't believe it anyhow.
Do you really want her to say "H, it was the BEST SEX I ever had. I was a fool to marry YOU b/c I could be having great sex with OM from before our marriage instead...he's all I think of" Is that what you want?
B/c some men here have heard things like that
BUT YOU get a wife who wants to work on the marriage.
YOU get a wife who has improved herself and expresses love more...
but YOU want to hurt her some more...
Well go ahead and tell us how much you want to stay married,
while you keep on destroying any chance of that really happening.
. However, if I confront her with this, she will only admit to what I can prove. STOP CONFRONTING HER...isn't this obvious to you by now?
Maybe you ought to think about how
YOU can start being glad she loves you and start working on showing HER YOUR LOVE FOR HER MORE...and hope she lets go of the years you've made her pay for one crazy weekend she's already regretted...
And from this point forward, I will always have to wonder if she’s only being honest about things I already know about. OR WHAT? You think you've proved you can handle mistakes she makes? You've given her NO REASON for telling you more.
AND guess what? She's working on the marriage A LOT More than you are. That's a fact.
THINK ABOUT THAT....FOR REAL.
I will always have to wonder if I need to be a detective. I want her to willing come to me and tell me the truth. LOL ^^^that's a good one... read those two sentences together and see the answer in your own words...
get some self awareness tools. You don't seem to get it.
I have told her that I know they are all lying. um, wow...no comment
I have told her that I can prove it. But, I have also told her that I will never show her my proof until she comes forward of her own free will and tells the truth. I have told her that I will never be able to trust her until she does.
You have created a LOSE LOSE for HER....and there's NO way she'll ever come forward to tell you a thing she doesn't feel FORCED to tell you.
You're doing the opposite of what a man who can handle the truth does. WHich is to let go of the past and to forgive.
By clinging to an event that isn't even recent AND did not take place IN the marriage
you are making sure she never believes you can forgive.
And let's face it, you cannot/will not forgive. You obsess about this all the time and it's been years now.
I have been going to counseling since the day I found out that she had physically cheated on me. you mean 4 years ago or what? And what is the counselor saying
GIVEN your claim to want to stay married?
We have been going to marriage counseling for just as long. She has been seeing her own therapist, as well. But I have no idea if that is working and I am not allowed to ask what they talk about. Please do NOT tape her or try to find out what she says in her private therapy time. It's a horrible violation of her privacy -a thing which she has so little of in this marriage.
Through my own counseling, I have learned not to make threats or give ultimatums so I stopped doing that over a year ago. I have learned to stand up for myself and for my needs, without being aggressive. I have been explicitly clear with my wife about my needs and continue to stand by them.
However, my wife still will not come clean. I believe she is under the impression that if we just aren’t talking about “it”, then she is getting away with it. wow, you could not be more wrong^^^ here. If anything, you've proved you cannot be told what happened. The more you hear and think you are "proving," the worse you get.
YOU are getting away with mistreating her. You see yourself as the sole victim here as if you've done NOTHING inappropriate as a husband or partner.
reading this is amazing b/c you are seeing a counselor but you seem to think this is all about HER and not at all about YOU...
I say Let her go. She can be happier with someone who won't keep rubbing her face in something she did or didn't do, years ago.
I've never said that to anyone here before, but it's clear to me you do NOT LOVE HER
as much as you want to punish her.
Believe it or not, our marriage has actually improved in some areas. She is no longer verbally abusive. She is working incredibly hard on being more supportive of me, my family, and my career. Our sex life has improved dramatically. She is constantly reminding me that she loves me (which she never did before) and we are able to talk about a lot of things we weren’t able to in the past. so what are YOU doing to help the marriage???? Anything at all?
AS LONG AS, we don’t talk about “it”. She still gets defensive, she still avoids the topic, and she still won’t tell the truth. THEN STOP BRINGING IT UP...what GOOD purpose is there? THINK HARD ON THAT b/c it's a no brainer to me.
She stopped going to our marriage counselor, though she still sees her personal one. Again, I have no idea what they do there. where are you going with THAT comment?? You think she's having an affair with the counselor?
Maybe she wants to talk about something OTHER than what she did before you got married
like how you taped her phone calls to HER MOTHER, how you contact people in her life or her past and her friends and some guy she met ONE weekend, and how you continue to snoop on her... and maybe she wants one person to tell her she's not a lousy person to want to move forward in her life and that she deserves to be forgiven and to be happy...
OMG I just realized, you have NOT read the Divorce Busting book or the Divorce Remedy book?
If you are a real person and not a troll looking to waste other's time ****READ THE BOOK THAT FORMS THE BASIS OF THIS SITE, ASAP***.
In it, you'll see how many mistakes you are making & ways to correct them.
read them while you still have time to save your marriage, or it'll end soon...
Geez....
My question to everyone is: Without making threats or ultimatums, what can I do to get her to tell the truth? If it’s not possible, what can I do to wrap my mind around the fact that my wife is lying and that she will most likely lie to me for the rest of our lives? The priest who married us said "Deception isn't good in a marriage. But don't give your spouse a reason for it.
If your wife dents the car (or your h loses his job), and you lose your temper and rant all week about it, the next time she gets a ding or he loses a promotion, she/he may hide it...and it wont' be without cause"...
In my opinion, your behavior pretty much is an extreme example of giving your wife cause to deceive.
I have forgiven her for cheating on me. Um, No you have not forgiven her. Not at all.
But, I will not forgive her for lying until the lying stops. If that means that I live in anger for the next 60 years, then I will do that. Gosh that sounds super appealing! And super smart!
I bet your wife will feel loved and honored and cherished and you'll have children who grow in a loving healthy honest environment...
oh wait, sorry. That's the opposite of what you are creating.
Look, if you are a real person, then read the book Divorce Busting or the 2nd edition, Divorce Remedy and really take it in. Your whole approach here is, in my opinion, indefensible on any level.
The worst choice anyone here can make, is to stay married AND stay miserable.
Which is what you are creating. You must be willing to change and from the sounds of it, you're not.
read the books...asap...it's crucial you admit the POSSIBILITY you are going about this the wrong way.
And so, read the book
I don’t want to live with this anger, but I believe being angry is a better option than burying my head in the sand and trying to pretend everything is okay. wow, AS if those are your only choices? I can only tell you that you are so far from being self aware here, & so fiercely stubborn,
that reading the book is the most basic step I can recommend... and also
I hope you show your counselor these comments of yours and how you are willing to be miserable so you can say you are "right"...rather than examine a new way of behaving.
Showing her the proof I have is not an option, either. I have drawn a line in my life that I will not accept being lied to anymore. Showing her the proof feels to me like I have to prove myself to her, when it should be the other way around. So I’m not going to do that. if the "lies" are all about the one past event, why not start fresh?
WHY NOT Let it go? What reason is there for you to have to know all the details? Surely she knows it'll hurt you and in fact she's right.
How can she ever believe you two will survive otherwise? Lately, I have been debating whether or not to push her to get a polygraph test. Any feelings on this idea?
you cannot be an actual person asking this...
are you real? Please read the book. You really NEED to read Div Busting or Div Remedy fast. In case I'm not being clear, my answer is NO you do not get to hook your wife up to a polygraph!
I know this was a long post, and I have left a lot of stuff out, so if there are any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.
what are you doing to become a better husband to this woman?
Is HER happiness important to you? You said your anger is more important than YOU being happy
so I guess your anger is also more important than her happiness too??
Okay so start there, and think hard and pray about this.
Put your ego aside and then pray.Otherwise the self righteousness will take over and justify your own punitive behavior. I am telling you that the anger is coming from a dark place within you...don't give it so much power.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
CB, I think you can't edit once you've posted - maybe a moderator could change the color for her. but I had no trouble reading 25's post in full, and I think she is right.
I read the whole thread, and when reading Eric's original post and the replies (previous to 25's) the point sort of gets lost that he is obsessing over something that happened *before they were married*. (ok, engaged but not married.) and he said he would forgive her and they got married.
now since then, further info has come to light (mostly due to Eric's prying) but the question is: has she been unfaithful at any time since their marriage? if so then that is what he should deal with. if not, then he should let go of what happened before they were married, and treat it as if it happened before they even met.
I know he says that he "just wants to hear the truth" but the more he hears, the more he gets angry and pries further. no wonder she is afraid to admit anything.
if he wants to stay married, then he needs to find a way to put this behind them and concentrate only on their life together starting with their wedding.
I think he should just go forward based on the assumption that his wife cheated on him right before they were married, STILL lies about it (and conspires with others to cover her story), and has the character strengths and flaws that he describes in his posts. And then decide if this is a woman he wants to remain married to.
Seems to me that there are many more CURRENT issues on which he can -- and should -- make his decision. Badgering her to "come clean" about something he's already caught her lying about is not only counterproductive, but it makes him look WEAK to her. "I know all about you and ______, and we both know you're lying right now. Please stop it" is a better approach, IMHO.
The other side to that coin TT is that this is an issue to the OP. A very important issue. So he does need to decide if it is a deal breaker. As you say. When confronted on the issue she lies. She does this full well knowing that it hurts the marriage. Yet to her this is a valid path to deal with her faults.
This will be something that she will need to work on if she wants to save her marriage.
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
read those two sentences together and see the answer in your own words...