Same Old Wagon Wheel Part 6

[Drew]

I think you're at a crossroads PON.

[ThisDayForward]

Crossroads as in I have a decision to make?

Just got back from my IC. She thought I should try to communicate to W after something like that happens. In other words she said

"hey W I noticed we were texting and joking around with me earlier and after me being home for a little bit you seemed to get annoyed and just abruptly left the house, what is up with that?"

My IC doesn't get how we don't communicate about anything. My IC also started saying you can draw blood from a rock. Then started going down the path most counselors take and started saying you need to be happy etc..

I can't seem to find an IC that doesn't tell me to leave my marriage.

[ThisDayForward]

Mr. B you also state that I didn't do it at the right time so she called my bluff. I tend to agree with you but both of my kids were still up and 1 was in the same room so to avoid conflict I didn't ask.

In retrospect I do feel I should have brought it up before going to bed that I didn't understand why she all of sudden got annoyed and left the house etc..

[MrBond]

No actually I said that you didn't do it the right WAY.

Start standing up for yourself.

[Many worries]

I know almost next to nothing about the process, but I've been reading your story power.

I wonder about this part of the exchange.

Her: I'm going out
Me: Ok, are you out for the night
Her: I don't know
Me: Ok I didn't know what to tell the kids when they asked for you
Her: no response, grabs keys and leaves

Do you honestly don't know what to tell the kids? Really? To me that sounds like you are using the kids to try to get information from her. Of course she wouldn't respond to that. I suggest you stop using the kids as excused to get information. If you want to know, ask. If not then don't. I think it makes you look weak.

[ThisDayForward]

Thx Many Worries. Looking back that may have been perceived as me trying to control her. Asking if she is out for the night etc. Yes it does look weak. I should have just asked "where are you going" and when she said none of your business not reacted.

Ah Mr. B. Sorry for miscommunication. So I should have called her out on it right there and then. Basically said "where are you going so abruptly etc.."

I'm having a tough day today. Im going to try to sneak into conference room and meditate.

I've really been reflecting on my relationship with my W over the last 10 years and I'm starting to not think good things. There is a lot of stuff I do not like about her and I don't ever see her doing her work. I think Drew is right. I'm at a crossroads. It is a huge FN decision whether to stay and hope or leave and detach. I've already been separated and to be honest did not like not seeing my children enough.

[25yearsmlc]

Actually you haven't done it the right way. so she calls your bluff because she knows you won't follow through.

Bond I think he needs you to be specific here. Give him advice as to how to say it and when

and then what to do when she ignores him or acts w/contempt ....or on the off chance it changes something, how to handle THAT.

And PON, you do NOT have to have all the answers before you stand up for yourself. Just know that an ultimatum will weaken you IF you are Not truly ready for her to call you on it. Short of an ultimatum, you can say "That's a disrespectful example to show the kids and I deserve better than that" AND LEAVE THE ROOM....

I would Not expect ANY immediate improvement on her end, b/c at this time all you can reasonably hope for is to plant a seed in her mind that later on, MIGHT sprout into a new behavior on her end...

Never give an ultimatum you are not prepared to live by....assume the answer to the ultimatum will be "I'll do what I want anyhow, screw you"...

So don't give it til you're really truly FULLY ready.

But clearly what you are doing now is NOT working. (I didn't see the positives you saw in her behavior, btw, so I don't understand the confusion you have.)

When you got your tonsils out (crazy timing for a surgery, I must say) she treated you with a modicum of decency, nothing more.

Now she sees you are well enough, so she's free again. If this is not acceptable to you,

then as soon as the holidays are over, DO something about it. Not words, action.

You want a MC to tell you how to save your marriage but they instead tell you to leave it, correct?

Hey, I understand how frustrating that is.

OTOH, if all they see in you is what you post here, then it seems you have a very low self esteem, you obsess and make your situation worse, and your wife believes she wants out of the marriage. And she has good reason to want out of it.

So, There's not a lot to work with b/c you continue to obsess no matter what we say,

ALTHOUGH you say you're getting better. IMO, that is either not true, OR not clear to her OR it's too late

OR it's slowly sinking in to her-- but you have not seen enough change in HER to know it might be working.

The only answer to this quandary, IF you don't want to file or leave, is to give your behavioral changes more time for her to trust them AND THEN see what happens.

(Absent physical abuse, I'm not big on doing anything right before the holidays, even if the WAS is a total jerk...usually, reacting can wait til Christmas has passed). In fact, "reacting" is usually a good thing to delay until you really know what you must do AND can do it.

[Drew]

I think Drew is right. I'm at a crossroads. It is a huge FN decision whether to stay and hope or leave and detach. I've already been separated and to be honest did not like not seeing my children enough.

I think there's a middle ground here. Like Mr. B says it involves sticking up for yourself.

I'll give you my honest opinion, but I will be brutally honest so you need to make sure you're ready for it.

[ThisDayForward]

Thx 25. When you say I'm not doing my work what do you mean by that? I'm reading self help books or doing audio books. I goto IC every week. I goto the gym daily and will start back once tonsils done healing. Btw it wasn't just tonsils. This was 8 year battle with insurance company to get my sleep apnea fixed. (tonsils, septum, uvula, and turbinates) and got surgery approved and I had no real decision on date. I'm learning how to meditate. I'm no longer calling family members or venting on my phone via txt. I've opened up my phone. I could increase GAL. I admit that. I got a dayjob. I leave my dayjob at home at night. No excuses it is tough with the kids. I could schedule sometime once or twice a week to leave before they are in bed. I AM BEING VERY SINCERE HERE. What do you think I should work on for me more? The obsessive behavior? Standing up for myself?

Drew sure I'll take your opinion. Maybe it will help?

Also 25 I feel she is waiting for the holidays to past to make her move. 25 it has been 1 full year and she has not indicated to me once that she wants to try to work on the marriage. As matter fact for almost 18 months straight she has requested a divorce once a month on the dot. I want to do my work and I feel like I have made some strides but YES I sometimes feel hopeless because without her willing to try a smidge I just don't see how we can carry on with no relationship or coping skills

25 I really value your input and really sincerely take everyones advice on here to heart.

[25yearsmlc]

I have a few questions.

Can you truly detach and live under the same roof with WAS?

Yes but it's hard. And imo, probably not something you yourself can do at the moment. Your whole paradigm must shift in order for you to function without obessing about her or reading into everything she does or says or texts...


I feel like the people I talk to about detachment don't do this until they are physically dating someone else or have moved on completely.

NOT TRUE...do NOT confuse detachment with a lack of caring, OR giving up OR the pathetic need to immediately replace a WAS with a new person.

I have never seen a HEALTHY LBSer find a new mate fast....

I believe there is a mandatory time for growth and reflection, and time to heal which must be done ALONE - without the influence of a 3rd party...

Besides it's not fair to the 3rd party to use them as way of healing the LBSer or make the WAS jealous or whatever....IMO, NO LBSer could be well or healed enough to be in a real r at that time anyhow.

Like so many, You confuse what detachment means.

Pretend you were not totally dependent on your wife's behavior for how YOUR day is going.

Pretend you are not revolving around HER mood to decide if you are having a good day or night or hour....

Pretend that you knew you'd be alright no matter what SHE does/did...b/c she's not an index for Your happiness or misery.

^^^ THAT "pretending" is a lot like being detached. It's NOT a lack of caring or having "Totally have moved on" at all. It's owning our own happiness...regardless....

and the longer you believe the myth that detaching means not caring OR "totally moving on", the slower you'll be in learning how to detach and therein, lies a big problem for you.

I had moved on from my marriage in the sense that I no longer depended on the outcome of my h's choices, to KNOW I'd be fine, happy & well, regardless....

and I released the outcome and put it into God's hands and trusted that I and my children would be fine, regardless... but I retained SOME hope that maybe "someday" he'd awaken but regardless, I would continue to grow. I came to believe, thoroughly, that my life was going to be a good one...regardless, and that belief radiated in all I did and said...for the most part.....((( "REGARDLESS" of what HE did or said or felt or did not do or did not say...he was not the compass for my life. He did not direct my life. REGARDLESS of his direction, I chose mine. Make sense?)))

And that helped ME and imo, our situation b/c I think my h saw that sea of change in me, and began to believe I was actually BENEFITTING from our troubles - and in the sense that I was GAL like crazy and getting happy, he was right!

So of course that got him to turn around and look at me...really look at me and who/what he was giving up...& for what???

The reason it took 2 years is partly b/c I took a long time to "get" DBing.

And partly b/c I came to enjoy GAL and b/c I finally released my h to his "task" to go find his peace and joy in the tundra, alone...(which didn't work out so well for him) so I could better focus on my life and my children's...creating happiness for US...regardless....


I try everyday to treat my W as a roomate and believe me I don't react to her stuff to her.

really? B/c It seems like you FEEL a lot related to how SHE acts or how YOU THINK she is acting or feeling and you do a ton of mind reading too....THAT stuff must stop asap


I do bring energy to it by posting here and talking to counselor about it. But I'm a talker. I like to talk and get things out.

I feel like part of DB veterans say "do nothing. no not give energy to her"

Part of me feels like I let her treat me like a doormat when doing above


There CAN be a fine line between being a doormat and ignoring lousy treatment. You have to find a way to respond that shows your self respect WITHOUT being punitive or petty OR over reacting OR letting it ruin any part of your day.

Can you think of how you'd react if a homeless man you did not know, asked you for money and then rudely complained that you did not give him enough?

Other than telling him off, would his comment bother you the rest of the day OR would you realize "hey, he's homeless, he does not know me, his 'opinion' of me is biased AND ignorant and irrelevant"...????

See her negative comments the same way. If they're made in front of the kids, THAT can and should be addressed in a way that does not escalate but does set a boundary for you. Expressing that you deserve better and don't want a scene on Christmas AND LEAVING the room, is one way to do it.

But after a few minutes you have to move forward in the evening. You cannot hold onto it all night or day. It's the holidays and you have kids.

Not saying pretend it didn't happen, or being weirdly cheerful just after an awkward moment, but am saying move on to the next task at hand and be cool to her. ALWAYS CIVIL , but at those moments, not so warm.


Also. Do you think the WAS will do stuff like I mentioned above "Im going out etc" as a test to see if she can gain a reaction out of me?


DOUBTFUL... IRRELEVANT, & who cares?

THIS^^^ Is you mind reading into her behavior and allowing it to affect how YOU behave. STOP IT.


I really don't get how you guys detach. Seems like lots of people including Mr. B were not living under the same roof. even 25 if I get it right you guys weren't under the same roof for awhile. In that case i would guess detaching could be a little easier.

It is easier in some ways and the changes we make are easier to notice. Then again, I still have my kids and home. AND he still visited every few weeks and we were then under the same roof. There are advantages. In all, for US, it was better but not 100% by any means.

I do know this. I still let her moods dictate mine at times. That is not healthy

YOU let her moods dictate yours almost all the time. You're right. It's NOT healthy. It's NOT helping you. It's hurting you. It's setting an Unhealthy example for your kids

One thing I wish I knew earlier was how much that affects the children in the LONG run.

My kids still feel a bit nervous when h is around after being gone.

That's sad. I bear some responsibility for "teaching" them that.

Don't repeat my mistakes.

You know what NOT to do. Make that list and just stick to it. Maybe it's not easy. But you know, it's NOT complicated either. It's simple.

Now make a list, even if only with 2 or 3 goals on it. Behaviors TO DO...and begin doing them.

B/c even if you know what NOT to do, and even if you followed it, which you have not but anyhow...

in times of crisis we tend to go back to what we know...so you must learn NEW ways of handling stress and life's curve balls or you'll keep coming back to what you know is NOT helping.

Look into Essential Experience, ("EE") which is a workshop on the east coast (mainly in Philly) and see if you can attend. At least look at their website.

It can alter your behavior and paradigm in one long weekend, as much as 2 good years of therapy. It sure helped me. And it made such a difference in MY behavior that my h chose to attend it himself a few months later. THAT, and DBing is why we are still married.

The only other thing I'd suggest is Retrovaille, but that takes a couple to go.
And your wife isn't in the mood. EE is for individuals who have stuff to work on, and you do.

Working on yourself effectively WILL change your relationships...it must. It does.

And that leads to good things in all your r's.

AND OR, hire a DB coach. But you need some tools we can't hand over to you in a forum like this.

Good luck!