The house is for sale. So sad, Family is breaking.

[sandi2]

Either way, seems as though I am in a competition I cannot win. It is one that she does not want me to be in either and really, should I? Or, if I should, how do I compete.

No, I don't believe you should compete for a few reasons.....which I won't get into all of them, but a man should not have to compete with another man for his own wife. And, even if you tried, most women can tell what is happening. In my opinion (I don't have any stats on the subject) it does not score any points for the LBH. It usually just turns her off to see H do this. And, I know MWD says that the LBS might look to see what the OP to see what is it that the WAS liked, but I don't think it applies here. I have read a couple of posts from a LBH that saw competing as "fighting" for her, but again, I don't think most WAW would agree, but that's MHO. If the WAW enjoyed seeing two men compete for her....then there is something wrong with her...in addition to the other WAW problems.

To just be the best Floyd I know how? The Floyd she fell in love with and says she loved so much for 16 of 19 years together?

You answered your own question right there. I know you hear it a lot around here, but I promise that is THE solution. It may not turn her around before she files for a D, but nothing...and I mean nothing else will work like becoming the man you were when she fell in love with you. I'm not talking about things you did b/c you were young b/c you may not be able to do that anymore, but I think you get the idea.

You mention doing what is right. I believe in saving families and marriage. But I would need her aboard to see that, right?

What I was talking about is living by whatever dictates your moral/spiritual set of values. For me, it was what I had been taught in church all my life. I may not know everything that's right, but I usually know when it is wrong. My felt conviction over my actions. I was not living by my own personal standard......and certainly not God's.

So, you don't willingly mistreat her. You don't do things to punish her, or act out of revenge. And.....you do not try to force her to do what you want. When the W is still living under the same roof with the H, then he should try to "lead" her and his children (as you described as being directed) in the right way. When faced with a daily decision (big or small), you make that decision out of your personal norms/standards to the best of your ability. If there are children, then I believe you "direct" them and teach them what is morally and spiritually right from wrong. That's a big responsibility, isn't it? We can discipline kids, but it's not our place to discipline another adult.....even our spouse.

Sorry, I'm going all around by grandma's house to answer your question. You believe in saving M and family. Right now, you feel that you have no power to save it b/c your W is not "on board". So you can't do the type work you see as saving the M. However, you can work at being the very best man you are capable of being....and reaching that goal is an attractive accomplishment. That is the work! That is the part that you save! When a LBS first comes to the board, they are seeking answers in how to save their M. When we tell them to start working on themselves......they don't listen. To newcomers, it sounds so feeble and most ignore it. It is the only thing you have control over.....but it is POWERFUL! Your work to saving the M (and your future life) is to become that man. If your changes do not cause her to turn around and get on board "with" you saving the M, then you will be limited b/c at some point, she would need to be willing to work, too.

I think because nobody in our lives other than the MC and OM knows about the A, nobody has challenged her on it

Are you talking about exposing the A? There are pros & cons about exposing A's. MWD does not support it.

Have I protected her too much?

I don't know. Did you protect her about other things....like being a spendaholic and how she ran the debt up? You tried to get her help, just like you tried with MC, but did you expose her spending habits, etc., to her parents or others? I never quite looked at it as challenging the WAW. It "would" place pressure on her.....and she definitely would get very angry at you......and she would accuse you of being controlling and wanting to punish her......and she would want to get a D as soon as possible. So, I guess it would depend on what you wanted to gain from the challenge. It's clear she is a private person and doesn't reveal things that she knows will not be pleasant (especially for her).....but whether your protection made it worse or not, I don't know.

I can answer your last question, however. No, you are not a fool for wanting this to work out.

[FloydMan]

You are so insightful Sandi2.
Yes, I did definitely protect her about being a spendaholic. Though people (family and friends) now say they’ve always meant to ask me about it. They have noticed it for quite some time.
She has turned her back on God. She avoids anything to do with it and has lost her faith. Mind you, I had a very good Catholic upbringing with a loving God and community, she did not. Hers was very strict and very fear God, Portuguese style. I mentioned God (off topic and nothing to do with us) in August and she said “don’t give me any of that God and religious BS!”. We are Catholic and my kids, especially my 10 year old enjoy going with me. W has not been since May…last time was the day we separated. We ended up going to church that day and she wept during mass, and so did I. We used to like going to noon mass, then a long drive in the country. She loved those drives. She used to hold my hand.

[tori2012]

Floyd, I see the pain through your words, and I'm sorry you're going through this. Sandi's advice is really good. Read it again.

Key: do not make your W feel bad about herself when she's with you.

Sending you my best.

[FloydMan]

Thanks Tori2012.
It is good advice, and I read it again.
It is so hard to detach, doing 180 and Last Resort. Maybe it is coming off as punishing or too distant. It is so hard to gauge. I want to be nice, talk, do things for her (bring coffee etc), do things with her…make her feel good. She wants no part of any of that. I would love to make her feel good about herself. She ignores me. She would not even look at me on my B-Day the other day. I guess getting her a Christmas present would be a bad move. Or is it not about not making her feel bad about herself and not good about herself either. Complete indifference? I am not intending to make her feel bad about herself, but she is likely taking it that way. Is that her guilt?

[FloydMan]

Christmas gift a bad idea?

[mamabird]

Hi Floyd.

I started reading a book the other day called "Why Talking Is Not Enough: Eight Loving Actions That Will Transform Your Marriage" by Susan Page.

As I read this book I see that it's right in line with what Sandi and the others have been saying to us - that you have to focus on YOU.

I know that I have had a REALLY hard time taking that advice to heart, but something in this book put it in a way that made sense to me - that I GAIN by doing it, that I grow as a person by doing it. Maybe you can get it from the library or pick up a copy. It might help all of this "gel" for you. Even over the last few days as I've dropped the reins, I feel that I've created some space for H to just be.

I'm getting my H a Christmas gift. Believe it or not, he sent me a few links for things he wanted. So I assume that he expects us to exchange gifts. We did for Hanukkah - small $20 gifts. No diamond rings or anything. He said it was to "keep the peace." Who freakin knows.

You probably don't want to get her something if she'll see it as pursuing, but you could ask her if there's anything in particular that she'd like this year and gauge from there.

What has helped me over the past few days is thinking that I'm doing this for ME and not for H or our M. I can't change H, I can't control the outcome of our M but I can control me and how I behave. I know I haven't been very easy to live with so I have a lot of work to do. :-)

[sandi2]

Christmas gift a bad idea?

This is a question you're likely to see quite often on the DB board, and I think the answer depends upon the individual situations. Since your W doesn't want you to do nice things for her, my vote would be that you not get her a gift. You see, as long as you are doing those traditional, or family type things...then nothing has changed due to her S from you and the kids.

Please think about what I'm saying very carefully. Just as you are having trouble knowing how to detach....and where to draw the line, so will you have trouble knowing where to draw the line in holiday traditions, as well as other family events. Your heart wants to give. Your heart wants to show her you love her. You could easily mesh that with what I said yesterday about living by your personal standards, and the day before when I said "do the right thing". It's really hard b/c your emotions are wanting to lead.....and after all, we think that giving gifts is always the right thing to do. It has to be your personal decision.

If you choose not to get a gift, it should not be b/c of spite or punishment. It should be with the purpose of abiding by her own wishes.....which (if I understand correctly) is to end any acts of showing her or giving her anything nice. She could not even look you in the eye on your birthday. While you're trying to figure out if it's b/c of her guilt or whatever, I think I know why. It's b/c she is sending you the message that she's through. She's done. She wants no more to be a part of doing things together like "birthdays", or "Christmas" I dare say. She is the one who wishes to change things. It's my belief that until she can experience those changes she's wanting so much....the R between the two of you will get worse. A woman becomes a horrible person when she's trying to get a message through the man's head and she thinks he's not getting it. If you continue to do the same actions as always, she'll think you aren't getting it.

A lot of men say they are going to give a gift b/c it makes him (the LBH) feel better. Pursuing makes him feel better too, but it isn't what works with a WAW. Gift giving is gift giving. It is kind of surprising just how many in the LBS category really, really struggle with the idea of not giving a gift to their WAS......even if they are being told it would be a bad move. I've heard a lot of excuses over the years, but the most common one is that it's for them. Every stitch is different.

It is a slice of tough love, which many do not believe in doing. Like I said, this is JMHO, and you certainly have the option to choose which way you think is best. Whatever you decide, just don't set yourself up for a big disappoint.

[FloydMan]

Thank you Regretful. I will see if I can get a copy. I do think she will see it ad persuing so I will lay off.
I hope all goes well for you. I think your H is just saying it is to keep the peace. Keeping the peace is where it starts. Friendly, getting along. Let it be natural. On eggshells is terrible but I see his actions and words as a potential olive branch.

[FloydMan]

God Bless Sandi2. As always you make so much sense. I will lay off the gift but definitley not out of spite or punishment. She is sending a clear message. Though she did send my nieces and nephews some gifts....marked from my kids. My brother and I agreed no presents so she has gone against our agreement to not reach out to the others family. Tomorrow is her parents 50th Anniversary. I was going to send a card with my kids but maybe I won't now. They were always so good to me and often the kids come home after seeing them and tell me they hello and wish me well. They tell me they wait until my W is not around to pass the message. I was close with them. My wife was close with my family too. She always said and even to the therapist in tears that she loves my family more than her own. That is sad.

[mamabird]

You should send a card to your inlaws. That would be nice and as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with your W. 50th anniv. is a big deal. Think about it - I'll be lucky if I make it to 12th!