I will admit to having expectations about it. I don't think they were self-defined, though. I believe it was in response to him telling me he wanted to do it, then telling me after our one session how much he enjoyed the book and how much he enjoyed the conversation, and then telling me he was going to read it during lunch at work. I expected him to do what he said he would do. Are you saying that's unreasonable?
Anyway, I've had this conversation here before, and the conclusion was that it's impossible to go through life without expectations.
Besides, why is disappointment an issue we need to avoid? Sure, it's not fun, but life is full of it. And I'm hardly some child with a fragile ego. The key is dealing with disappointment in a positive and forward-moving manner. If I drive down the road to McD's to get a frappe but the frappe machine is broken, I'm disappointed. But I either order something different, go to a different McD's, or do without. I'm not going to stand there crying and wait for them to fix the machine. Yet I can't see the solution being going through life not having an expectation that I can get a frappe from McD's. I mean, I love them and the anticipation itself is worth it. There are way too many things I would lose out on if I didn't have an expectation about it that would drive me to do it in the first place.
Did I make a big deal about it? I just said it's too bad. I didn't freak or threaten D or smother him in his sleep with a pillow. I was actually quite happy with my reaction to it. I just posted it here for outside consideration because some of this is very new to me.
I finally received my copy of the boundaries book and I've been going through it again. H finally started going through his and commented several times about what a great book it is. I just responded with "I know, I read it," but I confess to mentally rolling my eyes in a "whatever, boy-who-cried-wolf" sort of way. Not good, I know, but still better than it used to be.
Then H brought up an issue of his. He recently had a company function, presumably a Christmas party, that he didn't even invite me to go to because he knew I would pass. So then he didn't go either because he said he would have felt out of place without his spouse there, since everyone else had their spouse there. We discussed it for a while, as he seemed to have a lot of criticisms he wanted to dump and I wanted to figure out what the real issue was for him. He told me he was proud of himself for not bringing it up previously because he knew where I stood. So I asked him why he was bringing it up now, when it was over. He tried to say that he didn't, that I'm the one that brought it up. But that's impossible because I didn't even know about it. Then he went on with a bunch of "all the other spouses ...." statements. I simply responded that obviously they wanted to go, but that I did not. He took issue with the word "want" and explained that he thought they were doing it because they wanted to honor their spouse, not because they wanted to spend an evening with a bunch of people they didn't know (which was one of the things I mentioned.) So I reworded and said that obviously they chose to go because they wanted to honor their spouse, but that I did not.
I explained to him again that my boundary is that until he learns to treat me respectfully, I'm not interested in doing anything with him besides necessities. He always acts surprised whenever I say this, so I pointed out a number of things he had done already during the conversation as examples. He explained and justified every one of them. For example, he said his condemnation/ridicule of my perspective/opinion is justified because it's so different than his own. I responded that I will always have differing opinions than his on some things, to which I am perfectly entitled, so I guess there's no reason for me to expect a change in his behavior any time soon, and thus he probably shouldn't expect one from me.
I was very calm through all of this. H was not. With this last statement, H reacted similar to a 2yo when you take away their toy. I understand that he owns his response, but if I can avoid being the brunt of it I would very much like to. Or if there's a better way to handle my side, I'm interested to know what that is. I did well not responding to his anger. I didn't point out when he was being disrespectful, I just used the current examples to reinforce the need for my boundary. I'm trying very hard not to let my boundaries become a wall. It's not easy. The need to defend them against H's persistent assaults is exhausting. I know it's part of the process, but I can also see where it's easier to just walk away. At the same time, I'm struggling with my physical and emotional needs not being met. Like I commented in the post above, I have/will possess some very basic expectations of M. Without them, I never would have gotten M'd in the first place.
Feel free to ignore some of these posts. I'm just using this venue to document my thought process on this boundary thing.
So I'm trying to distinguish what is an actual appropriate boundary, what is just an ultimatum, etc. And is there a difference when setting a boundary between what someone does and what they don't do? For example, is there a difference in applying boundaries between when someone does act respectful, and when they don't act romantic, for example? In one case, the person is doing something you don't want, in the other, they're not doing something you do want. Does that matter or is it all treated the same?
After my H and I talked about the company function, he asked me what his boundary should be. I couldn't tell him last night because it just wasn't fitting in my head. Plus this is something I'm needing to work on myself so it's a bit of the blind leading the blind.
But I tried to apply it to the little form above, as best I could anyway since I'm not him. Setting: When you:don't go with me to my company function, I feel:neglected, alone, unimportant to you (I really don't know.) I want:you to go with me and be a pleasant companion. Enforcing: if you:don't go with me I will:go alone? go with someone else? stay home? won't go with you to your events? Okay, any of those options are fine with me. It doesn't change anything on my side. if you:will go with me I will:(have no idea...) So in this case, the whole boundary-setting exercise seems pointless. Or at least it seems trying to set a boundary is inappropriate.
I considered the problem is that I just can't apply it because it's H's issue and not mine, so I used a similar issue I've had in the past. Setting: When you:don't spend time doing my interests (eg. gardening) with me, I feel:neglected, alone, unimportant to you I want:you to do some of my activities with me and be a pleasant companion. Enforcing: if you:don't do it with me I will:do it alone? do it with someone else? won't do your activities with you anymore? Okay, any of those options are fine with me too. I suspect it would change something on H's side because he wants me to do his things with him, whereas I don't want H to do anything with me anymore, at least not now. Fact is, I did apply this and now I'm doing my things without him and not doing his. Maybe that's the only difference, that he really doesn't have any leverage to get me to do what he wants me to do. And leverage sounds more like an ultimatum thing.
Alternatively, for my issues of treating me disrespectfully, which is something H is doing rather than not doing... Setting: When you:condemn my different opinion I feel:disrespected I want:you to accept that I am entitled to form my own opinion and stop judging me for it Enforcing: if you:don't stop condemning me I will:stop being open with you and spend my time instead with people that are more accepting if you:will accept my right to be me even if it's different than you I will:look forward to spending time with you and that opens up the opportunity for us to build an intimate R
Maybe my confusion is in relation to recognition of the other person's boundary. The whole "where one person ends and the other person begins" thing. Can we create a boundary that requires the other person to "do" something? I couldn't very well create a boundary that required my neighbor to buy me flowers. I COULD make a boundary that they couldn't treat me disrespectfully, and I could have that boundary for everyone.
I don't have the answers yet. I'll have to keep thinking on it.
If it helps: Boundary: 1. A line that marks the limits of an area; a dividing line. 2. A limit of a subject or sphere of activity.
Quote:
Can we create a boundary that requires the other person to "do" something? I couldn't very well create a boundary that required my neighbor to buy me flowers. I COULD make a boundary that they couldn't treat me disrespectfully, and I could have that boundary for everyone.
A boundary is set, in this context to prevent somebody from hurting you directly. If you ask me, if you set a boundary to "make" somebody do something, that's controlling behavior and not a boundary.
i.e. controlling behavior is exhibiting behavior such that somebody buys you flowers. i.e. a boundary is not accepting flowers because you don't want simply because you don't want them. i.e. another boundary would be preventing somebody, in an adult way, from cursing at you i.e. controlling behavior is withholding your attention from somebody because they didn't do something you wanted (borders on retaliation for perceived wrong and childish behavior)
You could make a boundary that prevents people from treating you disrespectfully and you should. And you should enforce that. That begs the question of what you consider disrespectful and what you plan to do to enforce that boundary without being controlling. Part of being an adult though, right?
Does that help? I think I used more words to describe your thought that a boundary is for protection, but I think it was necessary to illustrate the line between protecting and controlling.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Thanks, AJ. I think that was my problem with the company function/flowers thing, and trying to help H figure out what his boundary should be on that. Controlling is a perfect description, and explains why it wouldn't work in my head.
My last couple posts have been all over the place, so this isn't completely surprising. I came across this post on Crimson's thread yesterday and wanted to pull it in here as a resource for insight into the WAS. What an awesome post!
Originally Posted By: Lostinscared
Oh boy… you think this is an easy question, but it’s probably one of the most difficult to answer and truth be told, I think it’s why I came back here. Because I’ve really been in limbo for the last year as to what to do and I’m far more frustrated with myself than anyone is with me.
Mach said it when he said that DB was real great at teaching us how to detach but not very good at showing us how to reattach.
When my H left, I was devastated (as many of us are on here), but I had the breakdown of breakdowns. Detaching for me became a matter of survival… literally. And there is trauma for me associated with that. The idea of letting him back in terrifies me because what if I get back to that breakdown again? And everyone can swing bats at me regarding nothing in life being guaranteed… intellectually, I get this, but the heart isn’t always so intellectual. There are days that I look at my H and I want to reach out to him, I want to hug him, I want to kiss him, I want to tell him that I love him back, I want the same things I’m supposing that he wants. But the fear can be paralyzing. Because some people seem to suffer trauma more deeply, they are far more scared to risk going back to that dark, ugly place.
It is so easy as the “wronged” spouse to be angry. To not understand. To stand on moral high ground. To be angry over affairs, nasty exchanges, seeming indifference or whatever… Now, sitting on the other side, I can tell you for sure that there are real people, with real trauma and real feelings behind the actions. I’m sure my H could come on here and tell you that he has tried so hard. He has been present. He has changed. He has taken care of me financially. He’s taken care of me when I’ve been sick. He has tried to stop drinking, stop working so much… and he would be right. Am I now the evil one because as the former LBS, I'm now the WAS? The issue resides inside of me. How do I resolve the issue in me?
I find it interesting that your W says she would have trouble dating. Very interesting. What she seems unable to articulate at the moment, is that she doesn’t trust ANYONE with her heart. This is so much more about her, than about you or your R at the moment. What she does understand is that she’s sad. And she’s trying real hard to get that figured out. In the meantime, she’s letting you into some pretty vulnerable feelings, something I’ve largely found myself unable to do. This is why I’m asking you to hang in there and not go dark. Because what she is doing is so damn hard and I’d really hate to see you blow the whole thing to kingdom come. Try to focus on what you can do to help her at the moment and less on the R. I know this sounds incredibly selfish on the part of your W. But again, instead of us demonizing and naming their actions, we’d be far better served in actually trying to figure out from where they come and try to help them out. Make sense?
Some of the subsequent posts said to keep being kind and give her time. Others advised to cut loose in order to light a fire under her (C's wife.) LIS indicated that that would have been the end of her M for her, that she would have just let go. I think it would be for mine, too.
LIS stated it well that DB does a great job of telling us how to detach, but not good at all in telling us how to re-attach. I'm thinking about starting a thread in the WAS forum for ideas/suggestions on how to re-attach. Even some LBS's have had to deal with this sometimes when they become the WAS.
Oh that kind of thread would be wonderful!!! I am at such a crossroads and have been for awhile. I came back searching for answers but they don't come very easily for sure. I think that kind of thread would certainly be helpful!
And thanks for the support, CV. Not sure the post was so good, but at least it is a painfully honest look at what is going on in my head at the moment.
