He's Just Not That Into You - The Sequel

[Wendylon]

His thesis statement tonight was that I don't understand the impact of my actions. That I have behaved sh!tty time after time and never really understood how it affected him.

It sounds as if your H needs lots of airtime on this topic. It's great that you did a 180 and listened instead of arguing. I suspect this is the way through your sitch: you validating and listening without defending yourself. You can validate his emotions without taking on all the blame. I think the less validated he feels, the more he will act out and try to punish you.

I know you have lots of resentments yourself but you are the one on this board so what about giving room to his first for longer? We're here to help you listen without being defensive. Your H at his best sounds like a great guy. As I've said before, the big thing going for him (in my opinion) is that he is the father of your children. I'm not saying that that trumps all else but I do think it's worth you persevering with DBing and especially with the detaching. Let him take his time but don't let him treat you badly. And who knows, maybe he will move out before things improve again.

And at the end, I mirrored it back to him and tried to reflect the feelings. I think he felt heard at the end of it and that's when the conversation ended.

That sounds great.

H suggested that I focus on my actions and how they impact other people.

You have nothing to lose by doing this. On the contrary, it could help you understand things from his position and make him feel validated.

By the way, I don't think that being in counselling means you need to be doing things actively and having R talks. It could be even more valuable to learn how to stop doing certain things and how not to react to certain triggers. Your changes can be very subtle and very effective.

Good luck with your coaching session on Tuesday. Do you have specific questions?

[Breakdown]

H suggested that I focus on my actions and how they impact other people.

I think this is great advice for all of us....including your h.

[25yearsmlc]

um, I'm glad he felt heard and you didn't feel you had to interject a defense for every complaint he had.

But, did YOU FEEL HEARD?

The different set of rules he has for you, is old for ME, so I can only imagine how it is for you.

When you no longer make decisions based on Fear or guilt, I think you'll know what to do.

Be brave, be kind. And do NOT overlook the impact of how he treats you

on how your sons will treat their wives, and how they'll treat YOU...it's easy to skim over that but it's a HUGE concern.

My one present day complaint about my recon, is that my h's relationships with our d's has suffered far more than he realizes.

While he and I reconciled, I sort of assumed the girls would follow suit if I chose to forgive. But they did not and he did not address it directly.

And now, years later, things come out that I wish we had addressed then.

the boys ARE Learning from what they see and it's not a good lesson. But you can change the narrative.

[mamabird]

Thanks for the support Wendy and Ruby. I can really feel your caring and it means a lot to have somewhere to go to get all of this out. I am so thankful for this board!

Wendy - I think you're probably right about the therapy. I've been so resistant to it but I realize that I have my own agenda that I'm desperate to get across. Understandably so. After 6 months, my H still hasn't heard me. I'm trying to just let the MC sink in and to listen to what H has to say. I've been reading some other sitches in which the W had an A and it's been helping me to hear the H's (LBH in both cases) perspective.

Journaling a little:
Today marked the 6 month anniversary of our bomb. We have come a very long way since then. He was threatening D with no turning back. Over the summer my dad said to him, "Well, don't worry, this will all blow over and we'll all be spending the holidays together." H said no way, but hey, we just back from my dad's where we did the first night of Hanukkah .

H and I did exchange gifts. I don't think he'd bought me anything at first, but I let him know I'd gotten him something (a book about the history of LA). He said, "Well in the spirit of modeling good behavior for the boys..." He got me a self-help audiobook called "Stillness Speaks." Anyone read it? It was a thoughtful gift and I told him that. I have a long commute so I will enjoy listening to it in the car.

We had a fine day and a fine night at my dad's. Just to share a few funny stories - H wanted to go to Barnes & Noble today, but he doesn't like the mall that's 10 minutes from our house, so he drove like 40-45 min to go to a different one. Makes no sense but whatever...

The other thing? That parking ticket that I found shoved in his dresser drawer has gone to collections now. The notice came in the mail. I'm just going to give it to him, no commentary.

I haven't really prepared any questions for the coach. I thought the first session would be to review my sitch and to focus on detaching while still living at home. Hoping also to get some insight into what he might be thinking.

[mamabird]

(the last post ^^^ is a little out of order - I wrote it on 12/8 but forgot to hit submit until 12/9)

But, did YOU FEEL HEARD?

25, this is a biggie for me. Maybe the biggest issue in our whole R. The answer, in this conversation is, "a little." More than normal, certainly, but that was not without a lot of effort to get him to stop and hear me. A few times I had to say "Stop and think about what I just said." H is not at the point where he can digest what I'm saying and think that maybe he did do something wrong. He is still justifying all of his actions (like it was ok to say he was going to D me repeatedly because we were 'in an argument').

This is also why I'm frustrated with our MC - MC is only pushing for him to be heard... i've been listening to him for 6 months now.... between the two of them I feel like my opinion doesn't count.

Also, when my H says, "I'm just trying to get us to a place where we can have a collaborative D" it honestly makes me think that I'm going to do exactly the opposite. His idea of "working on things" makes me feel like he doesn't love me enough to try harder. And that makes me not want to cooperate.

[mamabird]

Also about the boys - I recognize I need to shift the focus to them so that they don't learn the wrong things...

[25yearsmlc]

(the last post ^^^ is a little out of order - I wrote it on 12/8 but forgot to hit submit until 12/9)

But, did YOU FEEL HEARD?

25, this is a biggie for me. Maybe the biggest issue in our whole R. The answer, in this conversation is, "a little." More than normal, certainly, but that was not without a lot of effort to get him to stop and hear me. A few times I had to say "Stop and think about what I just said."

Is this new behavior of his? IOW, did he used to listen to you a lot better?

Do you HONESTLY believe (not "hope," but actually believe) that he's going to be a lot better at hearing you ...ever...or anytime soon? I know you hope for that, but do you THINK it's likely?


H is not at the point where he can digest what I'm saying and think that maybe he did do something wrong. He is still justifying all of his actions (like it was ok to say he was going to D me repeatedly because we were 'in an argument').

Does that mean he'll repeat the threat whenever he's in a fight b/c he thinks it's fine OR does it mean that he won't do it anymore but nor will he ever apologize for it in the past?


This is also why I'm frustrated with our MC - MC is only pushing for him to be heard... i've been listening to him for 6 months now.... between the two of them I feel like my opinion doesn't count.

I would tell the mc that you feel exactly THAT^^^^way...at least they'll know why you want to go elsewhere. YOU need to be heard. IF your h insists on continuing there, at least you'll have let the MC on to the fact that you know of the bias...and your h will feel more powerful than you...(IF that's a good thing)

MC's are only people. Half of them project their own pain onto others. I personally experienced that at 2 or 3 different mc's. One MC, a military Chaplain no less, came on to me. Seriously, he hit on me when h wasn't there...frickin' amazing...



Also, when my H says, "I'm just trying to get us to a place where we can have a collaborative D" it honestly makes me think that I'm going to do exactly the opposite.


First, gee, how motivational of him and how inspiring for YOU to have that goal...

Second, I don't know your financial situation and forgot how long you've been married. HOWEVER In a marriage over 10 years in California, I cannot think of a reason for a collaborative divorce for you, UNLESS you are referring only to custody.

The support guidelines are clear and there's not much to WIN for the lower earning spouse, usually the WIFE, in a collaborative divorce...if you make less than he does, and the marriage is a long enough one to get alimony (10 years or over means possible alimony for life, and marriages shorter than that can still get alimony, but not for as long)

then there's no financial advantage to YOU to use a collaborative divorce. Please see a Lawyer for yourself to make sure this is true in your situation.

In my situation, = a long term marriage in which my h makes more than I do, w/3 kids, there are guidelines the courts rarely vary from without good reason which you'd know. And btw, adultery makes NO difference financially, as the reasons for divorce in California only include 2 reasons. No fault "irreconcilable differencees" and "incurable insanity"...

as much as you might want to argue the latter, it won't work.

All I'm saying is that his argument is for HIS BENEFIT or maybe it's a stalling tactic b/c he's not ready to forgive but he thinks he has leverage.

Collaborative divorce is more for people who don't fit neatly into the guidelines or who have a pre nuptial or some other odd arrangement b/c the law on support isn't that complex in this state, unless you have a special needs child, etc.



His idea of "working on things" makes me feel like he doesn't love me enough to try harder. And that makes me not want to cooperate.

understandable. Whether he loves you enough is one thing. What we can more or less "know" is that his anger and pride take priority over all else so far.

And this isn't brand new. It has been months of his wanting to prolong and punish b/c he's not saying he's prolonging to "work on things" and all I see is punitive words from him, and not a lot of loving behavior.

It's possible if he thinks you'll walk for good, for real, that he might actually own something. OR not...but what you are getting now is NOT alright.

It's just not. You know it and we know it. As much as we are here to support your marriage, we are not here to do that, at any cost.


In my opinion there is a chance to turn this around. Not a big one, but a real one. I just happen to believe it's by you doing the following that shows him he could lose you. Sure I could be wrong..but here are my suggestions:

1) GAL big time, with girl friends and openess that suggests you are not doing anything "wrong"...so unlike some GAL activities, yours will have to have less "mystery" but you can still make it clear you will be happy in your life, regardless of his view or choice. Do not let his anger at your happiness ever interfere with you GAL. That's wrong and it's a sick dynamic.

You bring upbeat warmth to life. He can be a part of that, or he can still want to pout and hurt,& inflict that on you, but you cannot accept it anymore.

The words "from this day forward" are in marriage vows for a reason...and if he wants to stay in the past, that's HIS problem. You're in the present and heading into a good future. No more history reviews!

2) but that means YOU LET GO of the past, too. Remember, "from this day forward"... no more score keeping or discussing his past transgressions...

3) assert yourself CALMLY (stay calm at all costs...really). Before you raise your voice or yell, you leave the room. You do NOT lose it or show your anger at him. You leave the area...that's how you get him to change his behavior. Not with reciprocation...if it doesn;t work, at least you didn't escalate.

4) Do not engage....or do it better.
When he points out a negative of yours that is valid you don't have to just hear it over and over b/c hey, it's true...so what? How many of us need to hear a re-cap of our sins, again???

Use the phrase "H, if I had it to do over, there are many things I'd do differently" and leave it at that.

It shows you care and that you get that you need to change, but you don't escalate OR self flagellate as much. You don't dwell on the past.

And if he boldly lies or revises the marital history TOO much, you say

"H, wow, i don't recall it that way at all, but I'm sorry you were hurt."

And then drop it. The only other thing you can say when he throws things in your face like the divorce is

"H, if you won't let go of the past then you're right to say 'let's divorce' b/c that is the only answer. I can't live like this anymore. But you're choosing not to forgive and I hope you'll own that someday..." But AGAIN, you then leave the area. You dont' stand there thinking/hoping he'll "wake up" slap his forehead and get it, and retract. You don't wait...you make your statement and end the fighting.

Some folks think fighting is good b/c it means you are communicating. I think sometimes you're lashing out and that's just damaging.

There are things that get said that cannot be taken back. But once you say your piece, you go. No expectations of revelation in him.

The best you can do in the heat of the moment is plant a seed. That has to be enough for now...


5) set the internal timeline and when it comes, if he's not a lot kinder to you, GET OUT of this situation before your boys are ruined and your self esteem takes anymore hits.

I believe IF there is a chance for him to wake up, which is what he must do,

it has to be b/c he thinks he might lose you.

And believe it or not, a past affair won't convince him of that, b/c he believes it entitles him to MORE security from you which he seems to get by hurting you and seeing if you'll leave...and some of this behavior on his end has nothing to do with you.

Really...a lot of this is about HIM. If he can't admit that, OR if it's easier for him to blame AND LOSE you than it is for him to look inward

then you won't be the first spouse to lose a marriage partner who refuses to do the personal work needed...

Good luck Regret, I wish I could make this easier for you. I know you made mistakes but I can't see what else you could do to compensate for it'

But as I may have told you, here is what I saw growing up.

In our neighborhood we had a family next door. The parents were a married couple in which the h had had an affair years earlier. We all knew b/c the wife wanted us to know...

the h was a former POW and war hero but we were never allowed to ask questions about it. The w would interrupt and change topics. I assumed it was to protect the h.

But it was actually b/c she didn't want the h to be admired. Seriously.
At every social event, she'd make at least one disparaging or snide remark to or about him...

all we knew is that once upon a time he had wronged her, but that at the time WE KNEW THEM, SHE was the problem...not him. We all liked HIM.

So that wife, the betrayed spouse, did not look inward at all. She totally blamed her h for all of it and then she let the kids know what HE had done to HER/THEM...In my opinion,

She made the worst choice possible (and so did the h) b/c she chose to stay married and to stay miserable.

We knew this couple over a decade and the affair was from before we moved in...but That man suffered every day the rest of his life, for a sin he committed that was not all that hard to understand, once you knew the dynamics of the marriage.
And she remained bitter and hurt...the whole time.

30 years later, only one of their FIVE children is still married, 2nd marriage. 2 never married, and the other 2 are at least twice divorced and now single.

That is the legacy she left her kids.

Making the marriage a warm loving one, w/redemption and forgiveness would have been a far greater choice...and an amicable divorce so that each parent could maybe find happiness elsewhere, would have been better than the choice they made.

I often think the wife chose to stay married b/c freeing him w/divorce would have meant "he won"...and she'd have to stop punishing him. She'd have to move on and own her happiness instead of blaming him forever...

Sometimes I think that is what your h is doing.

Just some food for thought.

(((( ))))

[mamabird]

Oh my gosh 25. Thank you for spending so much time here with me. Such valuable input. Let me try to respond to all of that.

First of all, I'm physically exhausted. It's 9:15 and I am in bed. We had a huge weekend. S9's birthday party was today. It was an easy one (we went to the Clippers game, 10 kids) but this is the third week in a row when we've entertained. All the grandparents came over after the party and we opened presents and had homemade pie. Then after everyone left I spent an hour folding laundry while H watched me (as per usual).

H did say that my dinner and pie were good and that the birthday party was fun, but what I really want from him is his acknowledgement and appreciation of how hard I have worked. I've not gotten as much of that as I've needed in this M.

Now on to the questions.

Is this new behavior of his? IOW, did he used to listen to you a lot better?

Do you HONESTLY believe (not "hope," but actually believe) that he's going to be a lot better at hearing you ...ever...or anytime soon? I know you hope for that, but do you THINK it's likely?

In the beginning of our R I felt like he understood me. We didn't really have any issues then of course. I would never say he was a great listener, but I didn't notice it being a problem until a few years ago.

I really don't believe he's going to get better at hearing me without a lot of work - work that I don't see him doing. So no, it's not likely. None of this is, quite frankly.

Funny, but when I saw my psychic over the summer (don't make fun), he told me that this M was pretty much over and my next R would be with someone who "really listened to me."

Does that mean he'll repeat the threat (of D) whenever he's in a fight b/c he thinks it's fine OR does it mean that he won't do it anymore but nor will he ever apologize for it in the past?

I think it probably means the latter - he may not threaten D anymore, but I highly doubt (at least at this point) that he will ever apologize for it even though I've brought it up many times as one of the reasons I was mentally checked out.

Furthermore - H finds other ways to be passive aggressive. For instance, today the kids were wearing soccer jerseys which I didn't think was a good choice for a basketball game. I asked H to change them. H said it would be fine "if I hadn't ruined the jerseys by putting them in the dryer." (S6's is falling apart but it has been washed and dried once a week for 3 years probably). I told him not to bring that up anymore.

I would tell the mc that you feel exactly THAT^^^^way (not heard)...at least they'll know why you want to go elsewhere. YOU need to be heard.

I did tell H this very plainly during our last discussion. H said that I should schedule an individual appt with MC. I think MC should make individual appts with all of his couples clients and the fact that he doesn't makes him a crappy MC. I'll probably do that just so I know that MC knows where I am coming from.

Re: Collaborative divorce...

All I'm saying is that his argument is for HIS BENEFIT or maybe it's a stalling tactic b/c he's not ready to forgive but he thinks he has leverage.

Maybe "collaborative D" is not really what I mean - I think a better term would be "cooperative (or amicable) D" - a non "war of the roses" D in other words. Sure, that would be much easier for him, wouldn't it, because guess who has the advantage???

We've been married over 10 years, plus I have proof that he lied on a loan application (he stated he owned 100% of both of our properties and also that we were separated). He doesn't know that I know that, but I think he's honestly worried that I am going to really screw him if we get D. At this point I have no motivation not to.

I love your suggestions and I think they are really good ones. I agree that putting the past behind us is the ONLY way to move forward. However, I can't see that happening. I just can't. H lives in the past. He does not live in the present.

I believe it's going to be easier to make him think that I might leave when I really believe that I might. I have been thinking about leaving for 3 1/2 years, starting with OM1. I always feel like I should go back and read that book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" because I feel like that a lot. I think that if it were not for our boys, I would have left a while ago, and he may have thought that too (that he would have left). Anyway, I think that's the goal of detachment... to get to the place where you know you're going to be ok no matter what, and all of a sudden it doesn't matter what the other person is doing.

At this point, I could not just pick up and walk out. I don't have a job for one thing, I can't immediately support myself. I believe this is one of the things holding me back. If I can get myself in a better financial position with a stable source of income, I think I'd be having a much easier time at this. I do, however, have very good credentials so finding a job should be no problem.

If there continues to be no progress as far as I can tell, I know I will have to D. Setting a timeline is a good idea, because that way it can't go on and on. But then I worry about that. What if I say that things have to be better in 6 months or I'm out, and things are a little better but not all the way better?

Bottom line is, I have to and will stand up for my rights to be heard, to be respected in this M. There will come a point when I get fed up with his process. My IC thinks that he's stalling (maybe unconsciously) so that I will be the one to get the D - the "bad person" once again!!

[mamabird]

Also staying calm is very hard for me but I know I've got to work on that... I manage to stay calm about 75% of the time but when I'm not heard it really pushes my buttons so I will have to work hard not to flip out next time he does it...

[Mach1]

1. Genuine
2. Thoughtful
3. Warm
4. Cares about others
5. Good friend
6. Great mother
7. Inspiring
8. Can count on her
9. A good listener
10. Fun to be with

RLA....


The reason I asked you this question is...


That you appear to be struggling with who you are, when you are around him.

What I did in the beginning, and even more as I had to deal with the craziness of the situation. ( Over 2 years with a live-in MLCer)...

Was that I really took the time to define who I was, through the list that I made.

I made a list of the things that I wanted in life. And I decided to be the change that I wanted to see. It wasn't for my spouse, it was for me, and what I wanted to show the world through my everyday living.

I certainly couldn't expect to be treated that way if I didn't show it as well....

I would like for you to think about what that list means to you, and maybe define it a little further. Narrow down exactly what
Genuine means, or what Thoughtful means to you. How can you SHOW that , and what it looks like coming back to you.

What does it mean to be a Great Mother, or inspiring ??




Make sense ?

For me, it was a great way to take the focus of what was happening around me, and it allowed me to really focus on making the best choices I could, each day. Regardless of how I was being treated by others.