Stuck between a hard place and the biggest rock.

[Big Bruce]

Hello,
New thread, which logically opens this new era.

And for those who have patiently and graciously been following the previous ones, here's what's on my mind at the moment :

Since W said she wanted to works things out, but hasn't showed anything yet (never been to the counsellor, never accepted one invitation for dinner or coffee, never gave an ainch on anything), is it I, who should initiate peace/reconciling activities ? (such as asking her out, or to the movies, etc...)

Also, I wrote an email yesterday asking for my son for a FULL DAY, for 4 or 5 days before Christmas, because I have these days off I need to take. (which I could have used for anything else..)

We'll see her reaction.
Till then,
HAVE A GOOD WEEK-END,
B.

[Big Bruce]

Hi,
To clarify the last episode:
At the last second of last Sunday's visit, as I was leaving, my wife proposed a deal : she would drop the D proceeding, in exchange of my dropping my counter-petition.

While her filing asked for 100% custody, money and D, my counter petition was only about having more time (50%) with my son. It opposed the D, and said nothing about the money she's asking.
Obviously, she's afraid of losing half of the time her son.

In the reaction of the moment I accepted the deal, because I was overjoyed of finally hearing the words " dropping the divorce". And W said we had to works things out between us.

After a week of advice and thinking, "working things between us" might have meant : working the visit schedules between us.

-->It doesn't matter because Wednesday I sent an email saying that I wouldn't give up on my son, and that I was continuing the court proceeding to obtain 50% time with him (shared custody).

So far, she hasn't dropped her filing as far as I know. She is acting "normal-nice" which is unusual.

I was wondering if I shoould "test" the waters and invite her, or what?
I know it takes time and all, but all the techniques work if the spouse IS around, which is not really the case with her allowing two visits per week.

B

[eyesopen]

Bruce,

I have a hard time posting and giving advice to other people, since I find myself on this forum. So obviously I am no relationship expert. But from what I have read of your story I feel you have one extremely important thing you need to be doing, figuring out how to be the best father you can be. Your marriage is possibly over, but your son will always be your son.

I noticed you posted on Crimson's thread about going dark. IMHO I wouldn't worry about doing that. You spent 4 months in seperate countries and that seemed to have zero effect. If anything I would stick with LRT. I think your biggest priority right now should be becoming the father you should have been all along.

[25yearsmlc]

Hello,
New thread, which logically opens this new era.

And for those who have patiently and graciously been following the previous ones, here's what's on my mind at the moment :

Since W said she wanted to works things out,

You never said what SHE really said b/c you were not listening to her carefully b/c you said your heart was racing. So none of us know what she meant or said. You could have asked her to clarify or repeat...


but hasn't showed anything yet (never been to the counsellor, never accepted one invitation for dinner or coffee, never gave an ainch on anything),


"never"...what's it been, a week? And you only asked for more time with your son recently.

Good Lord, have YOU seen a counsellor in that time? Do you see how FAST you go back to being a victim, time and time again...as for never giving an inch

what is it YOU have asked for and not gotten? You barely asked for time with your son and the second she hinted that she might want to work things out,

you dropped the request for your son??? Now it's maybe ONE day with him out of 4?


is it I, who should initiate peace/reconciling activities ? (such as asking her out, or to the movies, etc...)

of course it's you.

SHE is not here! She's not trying to save the marriage. Supposedly, YOU are. So no, we can't tell her what to do or how to fix things b/c she doesn't seem to want to yet...or if she does, it's new.

Also, I wrote an email yesterday asking for my son for a FULL DAY, for 4 or 5 days before Christmas, because I have these days off I need to take. (which I could have used for anything else..)


Wow Bruce, so, like ALL OF US who have children we spend time with,

you "could have used" that time "for anything else"... BUT like what? Something more important than being with your only child, a child who barely knows you AND Whom you claim to want more time with?

You act as if you are doing him a favor...AND

And why aren't you pursuing half custody?

I truly have to question what your priorities are now. It does not feel like you want to be the type of father your dad was UNLESS it's easy

and it's not. Parenting is a DAILY duty, not some ONE time vacation that makes up for all the missed days and nights

It's like making small donations of maybe just a dollar, into an account. You do it every day....and Over time it builds and compounds and you have a vast treasure-

but when you stare at the mundane duties of just one day, you can lose sight of what you are building. It's easy to skip out "just this day" and that turns into a week and a month and now you have not changed a 20 month old's diaper...ever...

In your case you have spent so little time with him - that you literally don't know what you are missing,

And that's compounding the tragedy here.

I can't see why your wife would feel you have changed. What is it that you believe SHE CAN SEE in you now, that is different and better? I'm missing it.

We'll see her reaction.
Till then,
HAVE A GOOD WEEK-END,
B.

is this about HER reaction or you getting more time with your son?

I can't tell

[25yearsmlc]

Hi,
To clarify the last episode:
At the last second of last Sunday's visit, as I was leaving, my wife proposed a deal : she would drop the D proceeding, in exchange of my dropping my counter-petition.

While her filing asked for 100% custody, money and D, my counter petition was only about having more time (50%) with my son. It opposed the D, and said nothing about the money she's asking.
Obviously, she's afraid of losing half of the time her son.

In the reaction of the moment I accepted the deal, because I was overjoyed of finally hearing the words " dropping the divorce". And W said we had to works things out between us.

Did you ever contact her for clarification? OR to tell her where you're willing to change?

After a week of advice and thinking, "working things between us" might have meant : working the visit schedules between us.

-->It doesn't matter because Wednesday I sent an email saying that I wouldn't give up on my son, and that I was continuing the court proceeding to obtain 50% time with him (shared custody).[/b]

was there NO alternative to the court proceeding? In other words, it looks as if you gave her no chance to work it out between you two b/c SHE had not initiated contact with you after that day OR what?

Why didn't you call her and say "let's work this out ourselves and save some money and heartache"??? Maybe To HER, it probably seems as if you "never gave an inch"...

So far, she hasn't dropped her filing as far as I know. She is acting "normal-nice" which is unusual.

Good. So, Accept her polite kindness with grace. Be kind and warm to her as well. Sometimes, just staying civil helps smooth the waters enough for people to rekindle their friendship and warm feelings and later on, more...

I was wondering if I shoould "test" the waters and invite her, or what?

I'd focus on time with your son as the topic, and ask her if she wants to discuss THAT over coffee. Don't push for more "couple stuff" yet.

Frankly, If you don't first convince her that you really will become a great INVOLVED father -
then you won't get anywhere with the relationship between you two anyhow.


I know it takes time and all, but all the techniques work if the spouse IS around, which is not really the case with her allowing two visits per week.

B

sigh...NOT TRUE Bruce, not true. You say these things as if you cannot see in my very signature block how much longer my sep was...and we had 3 kids and I had ALL the responsibility...I made the most out of our contacts...

My h and I were physically separated for almost 2 years in all. There were several times when 6-8 weeks would go by, without direct eye to eye contact.

One difference in your sitch is that before my h went thru his MLC (or whatever it was)

he was as involved as a father could be, given his work hours. As I said earlier, when the kids were each born, he helped me. Later,

He coached our son's wrestling team, he took time off for our daughter's plays, and he SHOWED UP for them...went to events he could make and he worked with them, one on one, to practice sports or run lines for a play.
He was there.

So when we separated, I imagine he ached for their hugs and missed tucking them in at night. I know I missed him doing that.

Work the DB program. Don't assume you're so different and unique that you must change it to suit you or that it won't work For you...

Work on you. Read up about being a good father.

You said your dad was a good father and you listed things he did with you or for you that made him a good dad. Notice, Wasn't he there for you, consistently and often?

All the things he did with you, required time together.

So your request for "ONE FULL day", out of several days which you "must" take off work,

does not strike me as the request of a man who wants signficantly more time with his son. Especially since you then point out the obvious, ie., that you COULD be doing something else instead...

That was SUCH an odd thing to say Bruce. Look inward and check your motives... what else could be more important than time with HIM?

I think your wife feels she MUST take care of him full time b/c she knows you have zero experience in child care,

AND anyone with that little experience WHO HAD THE CHANCE FOR MORE but declined or never pursued it, is going to be hard to trust....

My fear, and I bet it's your wife's fear too,

is that you want time with your son - AND YOUR WIFE -

but if it's just you and him, then not so much.

I worry that you don't like the idea of being a single father. In fact, I worry that you'd prefer not being a father at all, to being responsible for him as a "single" dad. Like if she's not coming with the "family package", you'd prefer not having it at all...

And if that comes through as loudly as I think it might, in court,

then you won't have to be a single dad much, b/c She will get primary and possibly FULL custody.

maybe you ought to read that post from the WAW again.

Your timeline and expectations reflect too little patience and a lot of victimhood.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

it's ironic you said "aha, I knew it!" about Crimson going dark...Then you said YOU should do that too.
THEN you post here that you want to date or take your wife out soon...and you said you thought things should be looking up BY Christmas...
to "see if SHE means business"..

.and you even went out to celebrate whatever it was that you hoped she meant (remember, LISTEN WELL when she speaks to you. Make eye contact and see if you can recap what she says RIGHT after she says it, so you know you're being clear).

Dont' get so ahead of yourself with what you HOPE FOR AND WANT TO HAPPEN --b/c you'll miss out on what she actually says.

For all we know, maybe she wants YOU to take the lead

or prove to her something...it'd be nice to know what she said

It'd be nice if you simply asked.

but you still have not seen your son, alone yet.

You're all over the place with your approaches and your 'Strategies' but keep it simple.

Make it about being a better you and a better dad. That will be a good thing.

[eyesopen]

Bruce,

25 has given you some great advice, read it and reread it. Maybe read it again after that. I am 3 months into my sep, and 7 months since BD. I am only starting to understand all of this. I was so worried right away about doing and saying the right things, when what I needed to be worried about was myself and my children. If you can become a better person and father for yourself, she will notice that far sooner than any technique you try. Like I said before, it is entirely possible your marriage is over, it is what you take away from the experience that will help you the most.

[Big Bruce]

Good evening,
Not only I read the advice here, I also recopy it by hand on my thoughts book.
I think I'm giving you all the impression I am only asking for my son as a tactic to spend time with my wife. It is partially incorrect.

Primo, I have asked for 5 full days ALONE with my son (those are work week days where W is busy either at school or work). Therefore I cannot be accused of asking him to see W.

Deuxio, I can't tell you what my wife told me because I was in "reaction" mode, so I didn't think to ask her to clarify or repeat. It was a 30 second thing, you know.(Good ideas always come after a conversation, not during, I don't know why..)
It went about something like, let's work things out between us. But I don't know if she was talking about the R, or about the visitation schedule now.

Tertio, her deal was twofold, her dropping the D, IF I gave up pursuing more time with my son.
Since I sent her an email earlier this week saying I decided to continue the court proceeding (and btw No, there isn't an alternative to court system, because she is against me having young Bruce every other week, obviously, and I'm not going to take it out her hands and run away with him by force), there is no more doubt about the fact that having my son is more important than having her at this point.
--> I'm deciding having my son every other week, over avoiding the D !

And quattro, the final goal is yes, to get my W back.

So, the next movement is simple : -first see what she says about these 5 full days I have asked ALONE with my son before Christmas. She can refuse, after all the Court hasn't obliged her yet to share our son. (It is amazing that I have to spend/waste money to enforce such a basic right as this...). Anyway, this shows I want to be the best dad I can.
- Second, find out what she meant by work things out, and if it is what I hope it is, whether she'd like to go for coffee.
Going dark is maybe not the right thing now, but I have the impression she is tart eating, in the sense she has both the power and the control, and I am too nice. It is 6 months I am humble pie eating, and we've been separated since Christmas last year, I only came here in July, and she had our son all along when I asked her several times if I could have him more!
- Thirdly and last, my timeline is no timeline. Especially with Christmas coming up, I'm catching a plane back to France on the 23rd Dec., so it is very unlikely we'll holds hands by that date.
When I come back in January, I hope I'll have 50% custody of my son, my W will have to learn to live with it!

Tomorrow is my visit day, we'll see what's what.
B.

[25yearsmlc]

I think there maybe is a language problem despite your English being very good. Maybe you just leave too many things out, and then drop a new detail in, OR maybe you just change your mind...
You'll see what I mean as I note some things along the way herein...

Good evening,
Not only I read the advice here, I also recopy it by hand on my thoughts book.
I think I'm giving you all the impression I am only asking for my son as a tactic to spend time with my wife. It is partially incorrect.

and it's partially correct. The problem with that Bruce, isn't that I'm sitting here judging you. What matters is what your wife thinks.

We can assume she'll assume a negative viewpoint IF there are two equally plausible ones. And you are admitting that you want your son, at least in part, b/c you want your wife. That probably makes her feel manipulated and controlled.

I think that shows more than you realize.

Primo, I have asked for 5 full days ALONE with my son (those are work week days where W is busy either at school or work). Therefore I cannot be accused of asking him to see W.

Sure you can. Just b/c you might have him alone for a day, or 5, does not mean you want that long term. IT may well just be a tactic. I don't know.

BUT as for clarity or lack thereof...

Here is what you wrote before.

Also, I wrote an email yesterday asking for my son for a FULL DAY, for 4 or 5 days before Christmas, because I have these days off I need to take. (which I could have used for anything else..)

Bruce, those are your^^ words. "For A FULL DAY"..."for 4 or 5 days before..."

To me, that meant you wanted him for ONE of those 4 or 5 days.

NOT very clear. Second, do you actually think she'll agree to that? Not many women would.

it means going from almost zero contact with your son, and zero ALONE time, to full time for 4 or 5 days AND OVER NIGHTS? Um, I think that is NOT going to happen. And no court would grant that either, btw. Not at this point in time at this age.

((And you never addressed my concern about you saying you could be "doing other things" instead of having time with your son. I assume/hope you had an awakening and realized how that sounded, esp for a man who says he wants to be a great father...??))

Plus, be honest AND Put your son's needs first for a minute.

Your son would not enjoy that much change all at once.

AND it's near the holidays, so your wife will probably see this as a wrench in the engine, designed to stress her out at exactly the wrong time.

Also, I did NOT realize you were separated since last Christmas. It adds up in some ways but not in others.

Originally you said you got there in July b/c you had to finish selling the house and tie up loose ends back in France... THEN when you arrived in Canada, you realized things were bad b/c she didn't welcome you there...

but in reality, it's not that you two were going to move to Canada, together...

it's that she left you to return to her home country? And that was a year ago? Is that the case?


Deuxio, I can't tell you what my wife told me because I was in "reaction" mode, so I didn't think to ask her to clarify or repeat. It was a 30 second thing, you know.(Good ideas always come after a conversation, not during, I don't know why..)

We know you were in reaction mode. But why not ask her the next day?

Why not pick up the phone and call her to talk? What's with all the emails?

It went about something like, let's work things out between us. But I don't know if she was talking about the R, or about the visitation schedule now.

I understand this^^^...but how will you ever know if you don't ask?

As far as we know, SHE thinks she was clear (and she might have been) and wonders why you are acting so weird, and not responding to her overture.

Tertio, her deal was twofold, her dropping the D, IF I gave up pursuing more time with my son.

so you seem to be clear on THIS^^^...but nothing else. Are you sure?

Since I sent her an email earlier this week saying I decided to continue the court proceeding (and btw No, there isn't an alternative to court system, because she is against me having young Bruce every other week, obviously,

why is this "obvious"? Did you two even discuss it? Wasn't the first time you've asked for him ALONE, just last week?

and I'm not going to take it out her hands and run away with him by force), there is no more doubt about the fact that having my son is more important than having her at this point.
--> I'm deciding having my son every other week, over avoiding the D !


"there is no more doubt about the fact that..." Bruce, this isn't math or an engineering problem. There IS doubt. Nothing has been "proved" by you...that takes far more time. These seem to be symbolic gestures and I'm not sure you have reasonable expectations.

did you simply assume since SHE did not contact YOU this week, you HAD to use the court proceeding?...Bruce, you act as if this is all clear to us but it's not.

IF this is the only way to see your son more, then by all means you did the right thing. I just don't believe you two talk very much...and not directly.

Which is going to get very expensive. MAYBE that was what she wanted to do...TALK instead of having to file papers to get a point across.


And quattro, the final goal is yes, to get my W back.


there is a big important goal missing.

Where is the goal of Bruce becoming the best man and father he can become? Where is your goal of personal growth?


So, the next movement is simple : -first see what she says about these 5 full days I have asked ALONE with my son before Christmas. She can refuse, after all the Court hasn't obliged her yet to share our son. (It is amazing that I have to spend/waste money to enforce such a basic right as this...).


She won't agree to that^^^ many days in a row, away from him, and you should not expect that, at this stage of things. (No mother would agree to it imo.) He barely knows you. So what are you going to do then?

The "basic right" a father has, is one which you never asserted til now, so please stop playing the victim AGAIN...and

Not to belabor the point, but like we said, you have not even changed a diaper of his in almost 2 years.

Seriously, you cannot expect this number of days to have him OR to have his mother not see him for that long...it's not going to happen this holiday.

So Have a back up plan for time with him. Use that time to let her teach you something about how to care for your son, so her comfort level is increased, which is NOT unreasonable, but is long overdue.

How come this still hasn't happened? Don't make it complicated. Just ask her to teach you how to change a frickin' diaper and anything else you'd need to know for an overnight stay.


Anyway, this shows I want to be the best dad I can.

really? Putting his needs first, over yours, and over time, will show that. That takes TIME...remember?

- Second, find out what she meant by work things out, and if it is what I hope it is, whether she'd like to go for coffee.

good. How will you find out and when? Hurry up. Don't take too long, or what she meant might well change...


Going dark is maybe not the right thing now, but I have the impression she is tart eating, in the sense she has both the power and the control, and I am too nice.

1) going dark is the last thing a man trying to prove himself as a father, should do. How on earth could it help you? Besides, It's essentially what you were doing by being apart so long...and it did not help.

2) to me, she is not "tart eating" ("cake eating" is the idiom we use here, btw ) b/c she's living at her parents and having to care for her son full time. I don't know what she is doing for work or school...do you know?

Maybe I'm missing something. You are paying her more than you need to but she did not ask for that, right? So how is she cake eating? Oh, b/c she controls the boy's time and won't return to you? And that makes you mad...

See, I'm really more concerned about your anger.

You sound like you want to punish her for having the control over her choices and over your son's time.

The desire to punish and to 'teach her a lesson' is not admirable although it's also not unusual.

But "teaching them a lesson" is NOT the job of a spouse. Have you contacted a DB coach? I seriously think you'd benefit a lot by doing so. Please consider that. I had a good mc, and did a lot of things but I can assure you that if I could only do ONE thing to save my m, I'd hire a good DB coach.

You'll know if it's a good fit if you really connect with the coach and if their suggestions help. My DB coach retired but I can honestly say I think she was truly a Godsend. Perfect fit and her suggestions always helped...kind of miraculous.

3) how are you being "too nice"? What kindness and loving things did you DO lately?

You just filed for custody, refused her offer to work things out (that she MAY think is fair) and now are demanding 4-5 full days with him right before Christmas...and you are SUPPOSEDLY trying to prove to her that you are a changed man.

We all support your goal of seeing your son but you have to handle it right, and don't bully her with shocking demands that come out of nowhere (to her they are new, and to her they are going to look shocking. Plus, If she has nothing to lose by fighting you, she'll fight you. Where is her incentive to work with you?)

But mostly what I am bothered by in your post here, is the anger and the way you persist in seeing yourself as the victim.

You sound a lot like the man she left...not the man she fell in love with.

Which man are you? Which man do you want to be?

It is 6 months I am humble pie eating,

Again with the victimhood...I don't even know what you mean either. Where is the humiliation or humble pie? And where are you being "too nice"? Is it you Not losing your temper? Not filing sooner? NOT criticizing her as much, to her face...I mean the way you speak OF her is with contempt and condescension.

As for the "humble pie" and "being too nice" I think you might mean you did nothing...and hoped she come around b/c that is what you did in France. You saw her feelings sad or irritable (as you said, "bad humor" or "sulky") and you chose to ignore her feelings and left her alone and did your own thing.

Now, doing nothing and ignoring her has not helped her come around...and it's probably why she left AND it's why going dark is a bad bad idea for your situation. If you really read ALL of Crimson's thread...and it's a long one,

you'd know how far that man has come and how much he has changed...he's a better man and a much better father than he was before. And he's happier.
His situation is not the same as yours at this point.

Anyway I'm not clear on the humble pie part.

I know you were hurt when you were not welcomed there but she did warn you and said not to come. You still expected to be welcomed despite what she said...your expectations hurt you. Do you know what I mean by that?

and we've been separated since Christmas last year, I only came here in July, and she had our son all along when I asked her several times if I could have him more!

did you ask her to have him return to France to visit? DId you visit in that 7 month time period leading up to July? Or did you only ask for him when you first arrived in July? And when you asked to see him, was it meant to include HER or were you asking for one on one time with him before now?

Can you see why she'd not be comfortable with that, since you have not cared for him alone before now? Why did you go for such an extreme? Why not ask for a DAY at a time? OR is this b/c you got frustrated?

See, I'm not really sure I believe your requests were reasonable sounding TO HER...as if maybe she felt manipulated and forced to spend time with you herself...

You're going from NO care to wanting FULL care for days at a time. Without any prior effort to care for him. I don't believe she heard you saying you wanted time alone with him, until recently.

Saying you want to have him this many days all at once, might look like a maneuver, and it probably is. Be ready for her to react to THAT belief.

- Thirdly and last, my timeline is no timeline. Especially with Christmas coming up, I'm catching a plane back to France on the 23rd Dec., so it is very unlikely we'll holds hands by that date.
When I come back in January, I hope I'll have 50% custody of my son, my W will have to learn to live with it!

I don't understand why you'd leave at the holidays. Why aren't you going to share some of the holidays with him?

Did you talk to your lawyer? I can see why you don't want to be alone but if you and your wife could speak to each other you might have been able to share some of the holiday like other couples.

As for your w "learning to live with it!" --again your tone is one of vengeance. It may not be what you feel, but it sure sounds like it.

Dig deeper Bruce.

Remember to make your biggest goal one of personal growth. It's a gift you can give yourself and your family.


Tomorrow is my visit day, we'll see what's what.
B.

Good luck Bruce. And to reiterate, I totally support your goal of time with your son.

But if you come at this like a bull in a China closet, demanding immediate over nights and several of them, without the basics, it could backfire. It could look mean spirited and to me, it seems unrealistic too, which is not helpful.

So do your father thing and work on YOUR stuff too...can you tell us some GAL things you are doing

and some 180s? These basics of DBing apply to you AND will work for you too.

[MrBond]

I know it takes time and all, but all the techniques work if the spouse IS around,"

NO THEY DON'T.

"(It is amazing that I have to spend/waste money to enforce such a basic right as this...)."

Not really. You've shown that you've been a neglectful father and your W really thought you didn't want him. I mean, have you even learned how to change his diaper or learned his likes dislikes about food, etc. since you didn't answer the last time I asked?

"Anyway, this shows I want to be the best dad I can."

NOPE. It doesn't show anything.

"- Second, find out what she meant by work things out, and if it is what I hope it is, whether she'd like to go for coffee."

Don't do it. You haven't given it enough time and you're not going to like the answer you get.

"Going dark is maybe not the right thing now,"

You haven't even gone dark or even dim. You haven't shown her that you've changed and you haven't SHOWN her that you can be responsible towards your son.

'but I have the impression she is tart eating, in the sense she has both the power and the control,

No. She very eloquently stated what she thought and she was very thorough. She very carefully thought about you when she made her decision and you disagree with it. She's not wrong.

"and I am too nice. It is 6 months I am humble pie eating, and we've been separated since Christmas last year, I only came here in July, and she had our son all along when I asked her several times if I could have him more!"

Because you haven't SHOWN that she can trust you with him. When are you going to learn that important lesson?

"When I come back in January, I hope I'll have 50% custody of my son, my W will have to learn to live with it!"

Just as arrogant as ever.