The house is for sale. So sad, Family is breaking.

[sandi2]

My thoughts are one of two things could be the reason she doesn't want to be open about her activities, email, phone, etc......and why she will not discuss the A. She is either still having the A (or wanting to continue it), or she still feels very rebelious toward you. Just b/c the therapist thinks it is "time", doesn't mean a thing to your W. If she's not willing to discuss the A, then pushing her only leads to more resentment toward you. The therapist pushed.....and that's why W was finished with her. Frankly, I am surprised she stayed that long.

I want to bring something else to your attention. You need to stop with these on-line quiz taking type of things, b/c it only causes you more frustration and wanting to get her involved. You have brought up more than once about her taking one and not revealing her score and how that is affecting you. Drop that kind of stuff....for your sake and for the sake of the R.

The other thing I see coming up in your post is reference to percentages. When you are on the brink of divorce....IT DOESN'T MEAN SQUAT!! That business of M being 50/50.....forget it. I have seen very few (up close) that even appeared to be equal in their efforts, responsibility, initiating sex, or anything else. In most cases, I believe there is usually one person doing & giving more than his/her 50%. But when you are in the place you're in right now......you can mark it down to nearly 100% being on you. Fair? Well, you can't measure this by a "fairness" measuring stick. None of it will seem fair. But if you're trying to keep your family together, you do what you have to do. After the MR heals, then hopefully things will be more balanced....but as the LBS, you can't expect any positive percentage from her. It's not a good practice to keep any type of score card. And, maybe that was just your way to telling us how things were/are, and if so...that's okay. Just don't go away with it still in your heart.

If I had been in your shoes and opened up, asked for forgiveness (btw, did she say she forgave you?), and cried over the things that caused her pain......yeah, it would have ticked me off when it came her turn and she had nothing to say about herself! I'm not saying you were wrong not to feel upset, I'm just saying if she's not ready or willing....showing her or telling her is not going to help. It puts pressure on her and a WAW does not respond to pressure well at all.

In a way, I know how you feel b/c my H said he hadn't done anything wrong.

"Apologies can mean a lot and maybe then you’ll see the change on your H’s."

Oh, I did apologize! However, by the time I was ready to apologize...he had already forgiven me. B/c you can forgive if you never get an apology. I knew he truly loved me in spite of me cheating.....and he does not hold that over my head (which if he had, we would not have made it)....and that was a very big part of what got us though the storm.


I just think that looking at these things in percentages, etc. makes it more difficult for you to be completely giving....and forgiving.


"She feels like she is in a prison, but she has been free to go whenever she wants and does. Common etiquettes and courtesies should be on her for that."

I'm not sure what you mean by the second statement. Are you saying it is common etiquette to tell you where/what/when about her going out?

The comment she made about feeling in a prison could be a couple of things. She may be referring to the "marriage" being the prison. B/c a WAW wants to feel free of that R that has her tied to a man she doesn't want to be with any longer. The other reason could be b/c a LBH can be very smothering and possessive. If you inquire about her activities, she may be feeling especially sensitive or denfensive. Both of you are sensitive toward her activities.

"A little give and take but when one is stuck it is all give. That’s the program I guess."

Yes, you said what I'm talking about it.

"I think I can get to a point to not hold OM/A over her,"

You must....or the M is doomed.

"I just want honesty, openness and truth."

Of couse! Where once it might have be an "understanding" and maybe part of your wedding vows.....now it is your life line. If she withdraws those two things, the M cannot survive b/c you won't be able to live like that.....and nobody should be expected to live with anything less.

"I want her happy, but yes, with some assurances to me."

Here's the thing Floyd, the more you need assurance from her....the more she feels like you are still holding the A over her head. I can't say I know how you feel, b/c I don't. I've never experienced what it's like to be the LBS. However, I do know about the other side and I'm pretty sure if you push for assurance very much/often......she will tire of it, and by that I mean.....it could be a big turn off! Not just sexually, but in how she sees you as a man. Not knowing her nature, she may have a kind, gentle spirit....but that usually goes by the way-side of a WAW. And I wondering if all the assurances you are needing is why she said she can never be the W you want her to be.

You said something that is rather common with many threads I've read from LBH's. You said it was a big emotional investment. Interesting. So many men want the answer up front before they decide. That's like wanting to know the girl's answer before you ask her.

[FloydMan]

I am not certain it is self-righteousness, at least not for me I know it is not. It is clear disappointment, hurt, anger and yes some guilt as well on my part. I cried and wept and pleaded for forgiveness. But in all I have read in After the Affair, Michele’s books etc and 4 therapists, she owns that and needs to make that part safe for the BS. I know where I failed prior to the A, problem is the A is the only thing she feels she is culpable. I had some grievances too and that is what I thought we worked on for months to get to the point where we were working well. That is why the therapists said it was time to deal with the A and learn to build trust. It went downhill from there as she avoided it and kept being private and secretive. That is what drove the anxiety right back up.
I did not look at it as punishing, at least not intentionally aware of it but clearly that is how she took it. Her actions and attitude after the A seemed as much if not more selfish in my view.
What a double edged sword this all is. I think stubbornness is at play with all of us 3 H’s and all 3 W’s. Your H’s are hurting and so are the 3 W’s.
I have protected my wife and not told anyone. That also eats away at me and the therapist #1 told me I should not protect her so much. Honestly, family and close friends cannot figure out the break-up and don’t get it. What they hear from her and from me is very typical marriage stuff. She has recently been bad mouthing me out there to friends and even MY sister-in-law. They don’t get her trivial complaints though she expresses it in such anger to them. Does W not realize this gets back to me? We both contributed to the breakdown, but I chose different outlets to fill the void, not betrayal. That is not self-righteous, just the truth and it hurts. I bent over backwards to change a multitude of things. All I wanted was openness, honesty and genuine apology, coupled with “I will never do that again”. It is important to hear that and see that.
It is a tough road, one that my W decided she could not travel.

[mamabird]

Your sitch helps me a lot Floyd. It's helping me understand what I think my H is looking for, in a way that I can understand. The difference is, you are actively trying to put your M back together, despite the A, and my H is not. You have accepted your part in it and my H has not. It's helping me open my eyes to realize that there are other ways to see this.

Something Sandi said - that you need to forgive your wife for the A. Agree that it's essential for repair. I don't see my H getting to that point and that is why I despair that our M will not make it. It is very sad. You have the chance to be the better man and work on forgiving her. Obviously you love your W very much, despite the past, and it shows through all the work you've done. At the end of the day, even if she walks away, you should feel good about the efforts that you've made.

[FloydMan]

I am glad it helps you. No matter the reasons for the A, it is so hard to digest and accept for quite a while. Remember, anger is hurt.
I do love my W in spite of it all. I have not demonstrated that in a way she understands obviously before and after the A. I don't think she wants me to love her as it is easier for her. I don't think she wants me to love her as it is easier for her.
She took the kids out today as we have Open House for the RE Agent. There is lots of interest in it. It is a nice place. My 10 year old went ballistic and refused to cooperate with W to get dressed and leave. W kept yelling at her and threatened grounding. No consoling. W would not let me take one of the girls for the afternoon. My B-Day is tomorrow (Sunday) so I can only suspect that they went shopping. Tomorrow I go with the kids to my brother's family for my B-Day and to cut a Christmas Tree down. It’s a tradition that my wife started with them 19 years ago. This year she will not be joining us sadly enough. She was so close to them, is God Mother to my nephew and was very close friends with my brother’s wife. They don’t speak anymore and are disappointed that our problems seem so trivial compared to theirs and having 4 kids and married for 25 years. They tell me our experience now has made them grow closer even.
In my W’s begging and pleading months ago, she cried don’t let the A be the reason for our marriage being destroyed. Well, in a sense there were issues that were being resolved and still needed to, in the end it seems that is the death knell. I guess us 3 H’s and you 3 W’s need to put ourselves in each other’s shoes but so hard when we are blinded by our own pain and perspectives. But we must try.

[FloydMan]

Hi Sandi2,

Yes, that has been my dilemma…it’s one of the 2 thoughts, and I have been trying to get to that for over a year. If it is rebellion, that is one thing, but more betrayal is another, especially in light of all her begging, pleading etc. You make a good point about the therapist pushing too. I remember her getting her back up when therapist asked W to look at me and explain something. W reacted with body language and therapist said, “Oh sorry, I know you don’t like being told what o do”. So therapist rephrased it. She had therapist on defensive. W claims she liked therapist though.
Also, I agree with the quiz’s and percentages. You make great points. They mean squat at this point.
No, she never said she forgave me.
Common etiquettes and courtesies should be extended to any partner, I think. A or no A. That is what I see as the rebellion part. She had to answer to her parents all her life. I always said where I was going and what time to expect me back just out of courtesy, for her planning and expectations etc. I have nothing to hide.
Yes, I needed assurances. She did bring me back into understanding and into recommitting and that is a huge leap of faith. I did need the assurances I was safe.

I like your posts. I really want to turn this around, but time is running out. She is cold again today. I doubt I will get anything for my B-Day tomorrow.

[sandi2]

"I am not certain it is self-righteousness, at least not for me I know it is not. It is clear disappointment, hurt, anger and yes some guilt as well on my part."

My H isn't either, however, that is how I saw him through my eyes. What is hurt & disappointment to you, may come off as looking entirely different to her.

You've made a couple of references to 3 H's and 3 W's. Are you talking about those who have replied to your posts?

You said time is running out. You are putting a time limit on this....and that just causes you to have more anxiety and to put more pressure on her. That's another thing that seems to be common with LBH's. They want the answer first.

If the D goes through, then what?

[tori2012]

First time I've read your thread, but I wanted to say, happy birthday, and know that you can always come to this board for support. And everyone should have a really happy b-day regardless of all this stuff, so do something great for you on your special day!

[FloydMan]

Yes, perception is the biggest problem. When one is confused and hurting though, it is hard to be oneself. I know I have to be, but it is a challenge.
Yes, referring to those that have replied. Clearly 6 people (+ kids and family) are hurting or had been hurting. The perspectives of those that are in it and/or resolving it like you and RegretfulLA are really helping. It is appreciated. I wish I knew this stuff months or a year ago. Understanding what is likely the closest thing to her perception helps…you folks living in her shoes, or at least as close as possible….closer than a therapist can relate unless they’ve been through it. It’s one thing to know the theory, but another thing to actually live and experience it.
It is not really a self-imposed time limit but I get your point. I have only started the 180 about 5 weeks ago. Is it only common with LBH’s or LBW’s too?
Not sure what to do if D goes through. Right now she is pretty bent on selling the house and working towards D. I really don’t want us to move apart. Neither do the kids obviously. So yes, the pressure is on from a time perspective.
What is it that turned you back to your H?
You mentioned on the 3rd that you were worried about my W. How so? She is in the driver's seat, no?

[FloydMan]

Thanks Tori. I really need the support and help. I appreciate it. I am so close to my kids and my family (4 siblings and mom) so I am very blessed. Just can't share this with them. They are all devastated by this and loved my wife but are very disappointed in her. They don't even know about the A.
We are going to my brother's and his wife and 4 kids to cut down Christmas trees and celebrate my B-Day with them. This was my W's tradition that she started 19 years ago but she does not want to join us. She was talking about this day in April of this year and looking forward to it. Wow things change in a heartbeat.

[eyesopen]

You mentioned on the 3rd that you were worried about my W. How so? She is in the driver's seat, no?

Floyd,

I haven't read your entire story, but this line struck me. I posted a comment similar to this very early on in my sitch and received a response that helped. Basically she is in the driver's seat of her own life right now. It doesn't mean you have to go along for the ride. Only you can decide where you want to go. Make your destination a place that anyone would want to come along.