He's Just Not That Into You - The Sequel

[Breakdown]

It is too hard to try and try and feel like nothing is working. Trying is now becoming a cheeseless tunnel. Every tunnel is ultimately cheeseless, that is the problem.

What are you trying to do? Control your H?

GAL doesn't mean you have to leave the relationship....but stop defining yourself by your M.

[hopefulinga]

I wrote out a long post last night but I must have closed my browser before I hit submit. UGH!

Anyway, Breakdown has some good points. It's time to get back to GAL like you were several weeks ago. You were much happier. It is hard when you see progress not to get up your expectations and hopes, but that is exactly what we are not supposed to be doing.

Trying to hard is cheeseless. And you and I have tried the best we can. But we're supposed to be trying for a better us, not to make them come back.

I think I'm really starting to drop the rope. I honestly don't know if my H will ever notice but I'm starting not to care. Your H sounds like he is a little more invested in the relationship because of your kids, but has made the same "this will be better for all" comment that I've heard.

You may want to look at some of the progress but not pin your hopes on it. You H has a long way to go. I'm not an advocate of setting a timeline or deadline, but you will know when it is time to move on, if you get there.

labug posted on another thread about not being a fan of babysteps. I'll have to say that I can see her point after seeing babysteps and being worse off now, 3 months later. So maybe know that you have some small steps but also know that those don't mean that you will be M because of them.

At the end of the day, you need to be a good mom to your boys and need to keep yourself healthy. At some point, your H's antics and treatment of you are really going to bring you down. I swore I'd never let my M put me back on ADs and look where I am.

[mamabird]

What are you trying to do? Control your H?

Well, that's certainly what HE thinks.

I don't know that I'm "trying to control" him. It's more that I'm trying to be heard. Sometimes the advice on this board confuses me because I feel like it conflicts. Or maybe it's just that I don't understand it.

Our MC told me to take a step back during our session tonight. He was basically telling me to DB, of course not using those words because I'm sure he's not familiar with the book. So I guess it's pretty clear that I haven't been doing a perfect job of it.

I hear what you say, Breakdown, that DB is about getting strong and living for YOU, and that I'm not really doing that. I have given that advice out on this board but sometimes it's hard to follow. Being M is a hard habit to break, esp when H is in the house and we're doing things "as if" everything were fine. It was much easier to do that when I was separated. I do plenty for me, and I think that was part of the original problem.

I've come to realize a few things in the last couple of days. One is a pattern I have at night after the kids are asleep. I usually have a need for stimulation at that point, and it's then that things fall apart in whatever way. This is why I spend a lot of time here at night - to get that stimulation and also to distract myself from not spending time w H.

The other thing is that I need to admit to myself that I have a significant fear of failure. We all do to some degree. I have a fear of failure around work and around men. As if I'm not really good enough in either category. So this is probably why I hold on so tightly. If I can't make it work out I've failed.

GAL doesn't mean you have to leave the relationship....but stop defining yourself by your M.

That's a lot easier said than done, esp. for the LBS. I have been married for 11 and a half years. I quit my job to be home with my H and kids. When I defined myself as something else and put the M on the back burner, that was a disaster. I wouldn't agree that I define myself by my M, but I am fairly preoccupied by the situation.

H said he doesn't see that I really "feel" what he's going through. I'm afraid that's an insurmountable task since I've never gone through it myself. I can sympathize but I'm not sure I can empathize, at least not right now. It's frustrating for me because I'm trying to be loving and responsive and he just pushes me away more. I'm confused about this. Would detaching show empathy?

MC did go a little better tonight. I spoke up and said what was bothering me. I don't know if H heard it or not. H's issues tonight were the following:
- I haven't taken responsibility for my extra marital Rs
- I'm forcing him to conform to a timeline that he's not comfortable with (which I never asked but that's how he reads it)
- He doesn't have capacity right now to empathize
- He feels like he's always the one who has to provide support
- I don't allow him autonomy in the R

I have more to say but I'm tired so I'll have to finish tomorrow.

[greatwhitenorth]

Has he told you what taking responsibility for your extra marital Rs would look like to him? If yes, is it reasonable? If no, ask him what else you are supposed to do.

Did you drill down at all into the lack of autonomy he feels? Is this at all related to him pushing you away when you try to be loving and responsive? Maybe he doesn't want loving and responsive from you at the moment. Maybe he thinks he wants to be left alone to feel sorry for himself and justify his anger. I'd say let him have what he wants and figure out if he really does want it. You be true to you. Clearly your needs aren't being met in your marriage, apart maybe from a need to be needed.

Since doing things "as if" everything is fine doesn't seem to be pulling any gains these days, maybe try acting "as if" you're agreeing to what he wants and moving on with your life.

If i recall correctly your H has always been somewhat cold and punishing. You had your extra marital Rs because your needs weren't being met. Does he understand this? Does he care enough to see this or own it? Do you think he can ever be the husband you need? Does he see that he too needs to change? Is he capable of seeing this? Is he capable of changing?

[Breakdown]

Has he told you what taking responsibility for your extra marital Rs would look like to him? If yes, is it reasonable? If no, ask him what else you are supposed to do.

I was going to touch on this as well. There is a book out there much like 5LL called Five Languages of Apologies. The gist is the same....different people forgive and seek apologies in different formats. We took a test in retrouvaille to find out which we had and most people gravitate towards two. They are:

Apology Language #1 -Expressing Regret: “I am sorry.” List the hurtful effects of your action. Show remorse. It doesn’t count if the person is only sorry that they got caught!

Apology Language #2 – Accepting Responsibility: “I was wrong.” Name your mistake and accept fault. Note that it is easier to say “You are right” than “I am wrong”, but the latter carries more weight.

Apology Language #3 – Restitution- Making Amends: “What can I do to make it right?” How are they now? Is any debt owed or repayment due? How shall I make amends to you? Do they need help dusting themselves off and getting back up on their feet?

Apology Language #4 – Repentance: “I’ll try not to do that again.” Repentance- literally means turning around 180 degrees. Engage in problem-solving. Don’t make excuses.

Apology Language #5 - Requesting Forgiveness: “Will you please forgive me?” Be patient in seeking forgiveness and reconciliation. They may need some time or greater clarification of your input from Apology Languages 1 – 4.

My W had so much resentment built up regarding my past behavior, it seemed like saying sorry wasn't making a dent and I refused to say sorry over and over, so I kinda came up with a different idea....being extremely specific about things I was sorry about and folding some of these different languages into that. She said it did more to improve our relationship over the course of a few months than anything I had done in the 14 years prior. She still hasn't forgiven me completely, but that's on her. I've owned it, I've told her how I feel about it, how sorry I am, how much I appreciate the things she's done, how I've changed so that it doesn't happen again, etc.

If you choose to do something like this, I think the mindset is extremely important. It's not about making things better (though hopefully it will). It's really about these languages...accepting responsibility for your actions, expressing regret for hurting your H's feelings, repenting - working on you so that you don't repeat the same behavior, etc.

It's up to your H what he does with it, and he may be so bent on punishing you that it doesn't matter to him. But what's important here is that once you've done these things, you can stop accepting that punishment from him as you've been doing.

[Spartan]

Interesting post Breakdown. I had never heard of the 5 Languages of Apologies but it makes sense. I'm going to look at these some more for my own sitch.

RegretfulLa - I'm sorry you're still struggling with your H. It sounds like he needs a lot of time to sort this out. I know from my own history I was hurting because our trust was broken but also because I felt like I was to blame for a lot of it. I think that's one reason many people don't get over them because it's easier to be angry and just check out rather then look in the mirror and accept what they did to cause the S to have the A (this board is rare in that you see the people willing to work on themselves and forgive). Like I said previously A's are extremely tough to get over and you should be prepared for the long haul and that he may not forgive you no matter what you do. If you feel like you've apologized and you feel like you've taken responsibility and expressed it so he understands it as well as you can then you can't beat yourself up over it anymore. He has to decide to forgive and move on and you can't do anything to speed up his decision. I think the suggestion to GAL is right on. Force yourself to do something so you aren't preoccupied by sitch and give him time to work it out in his head.

One other thing that I can't remember if it has been discussed on here or your previous thread but do you see your H changing in future to make a good M if he does decide to forgive? From what I remember it wasn't good for quite a while which caused the EA. I'd hate for you to work so hard to get forgiveness but he doesn't do anything else to fix issues and you end up being miserable again. Just something to think about. End goal is to be in a happy marriage; shouldn't be to just stay married.

[25yearsmlc]

exactly YES to this^^^^

[mamabird]

Ugh. This is all starting to feel like one big mind f*ck. My head hurts.

I've gotten a lot of input here, and I'm on my phone right now, so I will do my best.

I've decided to try to just do a 180 and let my H do his "process". This AM I offered again to go through After the Affair with him, with the hopes of me better understanding his hurt and trying to empathize as we explored it together. He took that suggestion as me trying to interfere with his "process." So, I'm going to get a stress ball or something so that I can suppress the urge to open my mouth. Because, after all, I certainly don't deserve to have feelings or an opinion.

The overarching question here is, do I think I will ever have the M that I want? Frankly, I don't see that happening. I am unwilling to continue with the status quo, but on the other hand I feel like I owe it to my children to give my H the benefit of the doubt.

So far though, he hasn't shown much in the way of caring what I think about any of this, and if you asked him, he'd say I'm not respecting his wishes either. I'm definitely pursuing too much and the MC called me out on it. I think my H doesn't know how to compromise and at the moment isn't willing to even try. He may never get there so I have to be prepared for that too.

Breakdown, thanks for the info on the 5 AL's. I will look into that. Too bad my therapist couldn't recommend something like that. And Spartan, your insight about H feeling guilty is probably right on. I know one of the reasons I was not able to support him during our first episode was because I felt guilty.

More later when I am on my computer and can do a better job. By the way I called for coaching today. It's time.

[mamabird]

More specifically now:

Has he told you what taking responsibility for your extra marital Rs would look like to him?

He hasn't really said that, because I don't think he knows. What's he's said is that he expects contrition, he expects me to live with his hurt and "act accordingly." Since I don't wallow and I'm more of a doer/fixer, I find this impossible to achieve. He wants to "feel" that I feel his hurt. I am unable to live in this space for more than a matter of a few minutes though. The frustrating thing is that he refuses to engage with me so we can work through it together. He thinks therapy should be enough. This is very narrow minded as I see it.

Did you drill down at all into the lack of autonomy he feels?

Not too much. I asked him for an example and tried to come up with a few that weren't really accurate. The one thing he did come up with was a time when he was making risotto and stirring it with a teaspoon. Me telling him he should use a wooden spoon was invading his autonomy. Maybe I said it in a nasty tone but it was a while ago so who knows.

Maybe he doesn't want loving and responsive from you at the moment. Maybe he thinks he wants to be left alone to feel sorry for himself and justify his anger.

That seems to be quite true.

You had your extra marital Rs because your needs weren't being met. Does he understand this?

IMO, he is resisting understanding it, because then it would mean he'd have to take ownership. Spartan said, "I know from my own history I was hurting because our trust was broken but also because I felt like I was to blame for a lot of it. I think that's one reason many people don't get over them because it's easier to be angry and just check out rather then look in the mirror and accept what they did to cause the S to have the A". I see this to be true in my sitch too.

Does he see that he too needs to change?

What he sees is that our R is not working. He doesn't see that he needs to change; what he sees is that he might have better luck with someone who's more similar to him. He even resists working on communication skills.

One other thing that he said last night that I didn't get to because I was so tired: He said that he's always felt inadequate in the R. That we did talk about a little bit. He said he always felt that he never did anything to my satisfaction.

Now I am the first to admit that I grew up with a very critical mother, and she grew up with a very critical mother, so I learned also to be very critical. It is not an endearing habit. My grandfather was pretty meek and my grandmother railroaded all over him (though I never observed that). My mother is a total b!tch sometimes towards her boyfriend. It's really appalling, actually. But growing up with that, you don't learn any differently. So I've had to work hard to undo that tendency. I know there were times when I didn't treat him well or fairly.

That said, my H has all of these mother issues and I believe his feelings of inadequacy stem from his fundamental insecurities around women. He also said (based on his own IC) that he has an image of me as a "perfect" person and who can measure up to that. These feelings of inadequacy are largely self-imposed. Certainly, we never worked on that together or discussed it, just as we never really worked on any of the problems.

It just feels like every time we go into therapy a new problem crops up, something that I did wrong that's offended him in some way (but that he never told me about).

Also about him being supportive: I can't see him being able to be supportive until he learns to love himself. This may never happen. Maybe I am asking too much from him, but the fact is, I really need emotional support. I suppose I didn't realize that when I got married, or maybe I was getting more of it back then. But emotional intimacy has always been a problem for us.

That was the draw and danger of OM1. We effortlessly connected on that level, and I can't imagine what that R might have been like if it had been allowed to develop. I suppose it is good that it got squashed when it did, or I may have reached the point of no return.

[Wendylon]

Regretful, I feel so much like you do except that an OM never presented himself in my life. I'm not sure how long I could resist one if he did.

I could have written this bit. It could be straight out of my M, including the fact that some of the examples your H gave weren't accurate:

I asked him for an example and tried to come up with a few that weren't really accurate. The one thing he did come up with was a time when he was making risotto and stirring it with a teaspoon. Me telling him he should use a wooden spoon was invading his autonomy. Maybe I said it in a nasty tone but it was a while ago so who knows.

This is also straight from my H's script:

He said that he's always felt inadequate in the R. That we did talk about a little bit. He said he always felt that he never did anything to my satisfaction.

Like you, I do admit that I have nagging/critical/controlling tendencies. Just today I heard H struggling with putting the grill back into our sandwich maker. I resisted helping because I knew he'd take it badly.

This too:

He also said (based on his own IC) that he has an image of me as a "perfect" person and who can measure up to that. These feelings of inadequacy are largely self-imposed.

Yes, all true of us too. My goal at the moment is not to rely on H for emotional connection. Asking for it from him gets me nowhere so we'll see how this goes for a bit. I'll let you know.

I'll keep watching your sitch carefully and send you strength.