heeeeelllllppp!!

[AnotherStander]

Another stander. Please don't give up.

Your posts all come off sounding like a big joke, like you're just coming here for giggles. I apologize if that's not the case, but if you really are here for serious reasons then you have got to stop being so flippant about the advice you're getting and about the DB approach. When you say things like you can't buy a 10.00 book because your W didn't give you your allowance, then you went out and bought it but were too tired to read it so watched a football game instead, well it comes off as you either being incredibly lazy about saving your M or as a jokester that's just making fun of DB'ing.

I'm sorry I'm hurting and confused and don't want this to be it. My therapist told me that DB was a counterproductive technique to getting back my marriage.

Did he say "counterproductive" or "counterintuitive"? It is the latter, not the former.

I believe him for a long time because I was paying good money to him.

See, this is the kind of comment that makes me think you're joking. You believed him because you were paying him good money? So that's your litmus test to determine the quality of an IC?

I'm scared to read the book again honestly, because I see so many stories around here and almost no marriages are saved.

READ THESE:

Another Divorce Busted!

And also check out this sticky in MLC:

MLC Successes/Cinders list of Restored Marriages

And these bootcamp threads:

Successful Women

Successful Men

Unfortunately not all the links are active because some of the threads are quite old, but there's enough active links in there to keep you reading for quite a while. There are some newer success stories in the piecing forum that aren't included in the above, so look there too.

[Many worries]

Another stander,

First of all my IC is professional so why wouldn't I trust his advice. I try to pay for top-notch professionals. He has been doing it for many years. I do trust his counsel as he was able to repair my sister's marriage. So when he was critical of DB, I listened. I have since left him.

I am not being flippant about the advice, but I need to proceed with extreme caution here because I've given all effort to other programs and nothing changed. I have now read the book

You simply do not understand the current dymanic between my wife and I.

[someguy1233]

You simply do not understand the current dymanic between my wife and I.

Nor do you.

[Many worries]

25,

I don't get why my wife gets to make all sorts of insults, but I can't defend myself? I mean she has been mean to me at times and I admit I have been mean back. I'm not proud of it. But this is what i mean when I say our marriage has been messed up for a while. It seemed that it was part for the course. Then we'd usually make up. then repeat.
We did have a lot of good times too.

I am ready to focus on DB and the steps to get my wife back. I'm cutting back on the selfish attitude. However, I am torn between trying to do everything for my wife and being aloof and detached. Where is the balance? I want to pick up my work around the house and with the kids, but I know she takes a lot of pride in this. If I step on toes or mess up, she'll just get mad.
Should I ask her to teach me how to do the laundry or how to mop the floors the way she likes it? Or do I back off. I'm confused.

I know I should back off, but I wanted to tell her that I was sorry for everything I did and why the marriage is in this state. I also I did tell her she looked nice for work and I also asked if could drop the kids off at school. She looked at me real funny and asked why? I told her that I just wanted to.

Last night, I asked her about the code on the computer and if she could take it off. She said that I could "earn" that back with trust. I'm not quite sure what she meant by that anyone have ideas. she doesn't know that I have a work around. I went a whole day without snooping though. However, she seems to be guarding her phone when I am around and keeping it under a pass code.

25. I am looking for a good councilor and one who is familiar with the DB process. I'm not telling my karen because I want this to be for me.

I am also looking at local retroville programs. Maybe I can convince her to attend. It might be my only hope here.

[AnotherStander]

First of all my IC is professional so why wouldn't I trust his advice.

If a doctor tells you that you need a heart transplant do you do research online and seek out a second opinion or do you just accept his comment because he's a "professional"?

Also, do you know and understand that the vast majority of marriage counselors are not marriage-friendly? They do not push for marriage, they push for separation and divorce because that is what they're trained to do.

I am not being flippant about the advice, but I need to proceed with extreme caution here because I've given all effort to other programs and nothing changed.

I get the impression that you haven't been at this long, so when you say you've tried other things and nothing has changed I'm very skeptical you've given anything time to work. There are no quick fixes in this, if that's what you're expecting then you're setting yourself up for disappointment. It takes time, lots and lots of time, for marital issues to be resolved. It takes patience. And it takes work.

I have now read the book

Good, so now it's time for you to start your work. Understand that reading the book is the first step in a journey of a thousand miles. Now take the second step. List out the problems you've caused by your behavior and what you propose to do about them (your 180's). Then list the baby steps you expect to see that will let you know progress is being made. And I'll warn you right now, "have sex tonight" is not a baby step. "Wife initiates text convo" is more along the lines of a baby step.

You simply do not understand the current dymanic between my wife and I.

You'd be very surprised how much we understand it. It's quite likely we understand it better than you do. We may not know you or your wife, but we know the WAS syndrome inside out and upside down. Most people come here thinking they've got a unique sitch, then they type out the same old story. Some of the details may be different, but the thread is the same as many others.

[AnotherStander]

I don't get why my wife gets to make all sorts of insults, but I can't defend myself?

Didn't you just say you read DR? Or were you talking about some other book? Because if you read DR then you know the answer to this.

I mean she has been mean to me at times and I admit I have been mean back.

Since you read DR, what did you take away from the "It Takes One To Tango" section?

We did have a lot of good times too.

Doesn't matter. Your W doesn't remember them, she just remembers the bad. WAS's revise the marital history.

I'm cutting back on the selfish attitude.

Don't cut back. Eliminate.

I want to pick up my work around the house and with the kids, but I know she takes a lot of pride in this. If I step on toes or mess up, she'll just get mad.

Mind-reading. Why don't you try it instead of just assuming she'll get mad because you actually try to help her.

Should I ask her to teach me how to do the laundry or how to mop the floors the way she likes it?

Yes on the laundry, you don't want to screw that up. But mopping the floors, why don't you just do it without asking? Kind of hard to mess that up. Try vacuuming too. And picking up after the kids. And feeding the kids. And doing the dishes. And taking out the trash. And don't expect brownie points for it, just do it.

Or do I back off. I'm confused.

I don't think you understand what detachment is, you might want to brush up on that in DR. It doesn't mean abandoning your W to do everything herself. Sounds like that's what you've been doing in the marriage anyway, so she'll just see that as "more of the same" behavior from you.

[MrBond]

"I am not being flippant about the advice, but I need to proceed with extreme caution here because I've given all effort to other programs and nothing changed."

Because YOU haven't changed. AND you haven't shown the patience or maturity to follow through.

"You simply do not understand the current dymanic between my wife and I."

We ALL understand the dynamic between you and your W. The only person who doesn't is you. Trust me, if you started following people's advice on here rather than doing your own thing, you'll see better results.

"I don't get why my wife gets to make all sorts of insults, but I can't defend myself?"

Because you're not 10 years old. The more you insult her back AND then tell her you want sex, kills ALL love for you.

"But this is what i mean when I say our marriage has been messed up for a while. It seemed that it was part for the course."

And likewise, it just takes ONE person to change everything around. If you treat your W with respect (especially in the hard times) she will reciprocate.

"I'm cutting back on the selfish attitude."

You should eliminate it completely and not just "cut back".

"However, I am torn between trying to do everything for my wife and being aloof and detached."

You don't need to do everything for your W and you don't need to be aloof. Just give her space and be friendly. Like how you should have been.

"Where is the balance?"

You have to figure out where that is.

"I want to pick up my work around the house and with the kids, but I know she takes a lot of pride in this. If I step on toes or mess up, she'll just get mad."

You're making assumptions. You can still be a good father and help around. Just don't get in her way.

"Should I ask her to teach me how to do the laundry or how to mop the floors the way she likes it? Or do I back off. I'm confused."

BAck off. Start by doing something small like making dinner. IF she asks why you're doing it, just tell her you felt like making dinner for a change. Just do something as simple as sweeping the floor to start and taking the kids out. Or just say that you were thinking of grabbing ice cream after dinner and take everyone. Just small gestures here and there.

"I know I should back off, but I wanted to tell her that I was sorry for everything I did and why the marriage is in this state."

Maybe you should write a simple note just so that it's out there. Write it here first so that it passes. Nothing over the top. Just a simple "I'm sorry". I think writing something is good because you're not going to ask for sex in it and you're not going argue with her and call her names.

"I also I did tell her she looked nice for work and I also asked if could drop the kids off at school. She looked at me real funny and asked why? I told her that I just wanted to."

That's fine. But don't BS. If you're going to do something make it REALLY because you want to and not because you want to have sex with her.

"She said that I could "earn" that back with trust. I'm not quite sure what she meant by that anyone have ideas."

It means what she says. She doesn't trust you. And she has a good reason and right not to.

"she doesn't know that I have a work around."

Case in point. You are still betraying her trust and you say you don't understand why she doesn't trust you? Get rid of the work around and stop snooping.

"I went a whole day without snooping though."

Get rid of the work around and stop snooping period.

"However, she seems to be guarding her phone when I am around and keeping it under a pass code."

Because she doesn't trust you. Get it through your head that trust is the main issue.

"I am also looking at local retroville programs. Maybe I can convince her to attend. It might be my only hope here."

STOP! STOP! STOP! Retrouvaille and every program in the world will not help you unless YOU CHANGE. You're still the same person who she's p*ssed at, so why would she want to come back to you?

You never did answer that question - why should she come back to you?

[25yearsmlc]

"I am not being flippant about the advice, but I need to proceed with extreme caution here because I've given all effort to other programs and nothing changed."

Because YOU haven't changed. AND you haven't shown the patience or maturity to follow through.

AMEN!! You read the DB books years ago but forgot it?...you did not apply the techniques at all, let alone consistently and over time.

Your expectations of turning this around with the "right sentence" or gesture reminds me of myself. I'm a Lawyer and kept thinking if I only WORDED things a certain way, then my h would "get it"....

While my arguments might well have won in the Supreme Court, my words hit on deaf ears. He could not "hear" me then. I had to DO things differently and for a long time, before he believed he could be forgiven or that we could work things out. And I had to let go of my anger as you must.

LOSE YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS ANGER b/c it hurts you, hurts her and your kids.

And you know what? The anger has never been effective at repairing problems in your marriage. It may have gotten things swept under the rug, but it never ever fixed a thing. So it doesn't help you at all.

And I had to "applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he did",

which can be "Mother Teresa" hard. I get it. But

I could NOT "fight back" with him to "be fair" - though I told myself for years that I HAD TO....

but that's just more of the same old fighting and justifying, and it's score keeping. It also does NOT HELP THE SITUATION...

DBing is about doing what works, and NOT doing what hurts the situation.

it's Not easy to do, but it IS simple. It's not complicated. Plus, you have a habit of really going for the jugular when you two fight and you say things you cannot take back. So you really must avoid these escalations big time.

If i were you, I'd leave the room every time she loses it on you. Maybe say ONE calm sentence about wanting and deserving better treatment "Which the kids need to see more of from both of us" and then leaving the room.

I told you that you MUST lose the scorecard. YES She can say means things to you and you do NOT get to say them back. You walk away. You can calmly say "I won't be disrespected like that" and LEAVE the area.

Don't be like a 7 y/o and "hit back BECAUSE SHE HIT ME FIRST" b/c that just fuels her negative views of you. Have some self control and show her what that looks like.

What do you tell your kids when they fight? Does the biggest one get to hit the smallest one b/c the smallest one hit first?

Do they get to escalate and spiral out of control too? B/c that is essentially what you are teaching them...

"You simply do not understand the current dymanic between my wife and I."

We ALL understand the dynamic between you and your W. The only person who doesn't is you. Trust me, if you started following people's advice on here rather than doing your own thing, you'll see better results.


You've made several mistakes NOT following DB advice. The whole confrontation was miserably handled and you pretended it was DBing but it was not.

Then you insisted on wanting more people to know, to SHAME her into returning. What foolishness. Did you read my post to you?

This is a DB site so we use their approach, which is solution based.

IT is not like other approaches. We don't psyco analyze our past endlessly or ask WHY???? a hundred times, we look to do what helps our relationship and stop doing what hurts it.

I had to find a pro marriage counselor to help me with it. But I cannot imagine ANY MC telling you it's "counter productive", maybe counter intuitive OR maybe you were very selective in what you told them. Plus I'd want to KNOW that they had read the book. Oprah had MWD on her show, so did Diane Sawyer and others. MWD has had a lot of success in turning bad situations around.

MCs that I saw tended to rehash the past, which did not solve much. Sometimes I left more angry than when I got there.

So I wonder if your therapist was so helpful, well....what is your diagnosis?


AnotherStander has a point about how some of your comments SOUND. You said you were...."too tired to read the DB book, so I watched a football game" which lasts for HOURS...

that made me shake my head and doubt your real existence. But if you are real and have seen a therapist for years--for what? What is your diagnosis? What improved with the years of treatment?

***My pro marriage, solution based MC said "if things between you two do not improve signficantly within half a dozen sessions, I'm not helping you enough"...

I don't believe in endless therapy if all I do is talk and vent, b/c frankly, the venting can lead to cementing in with the anger.

IT can lead to just focussing on the other person, who isn't there to defend themselves or learn. And then we miss the chance to work on US, and we are the only people we can control anyhow.

The focus MUST BE ON US or this will fail.

Similarly, YOU must focus exclusively on YOU.

I don't believe any successful marriage program misses this point. They all seem to suggest WE change first, and not just with A step...but a hundred steps...


"I don't get why my wife gets to make all sorts of insults, but I can't defend myself?"

SIGH...
If you don't "get it" now, you never will.

Just Don't engage in nasty insults or you're just as bad as she is. And sometimes you react negatively when it's not even what is called for anyhow.

Like I said, when she told you to lose weight ---and said to set a healthy example for the kids

you blew a wonderful chance at showing maturity and growth and self awareness AND the desire to change.

You lashed out at her and said SHE HAS TO LOSE WEIGHT ALSO...

that makes you sound like a 7 y/o when you do that. Most of us got this lesson in childhood. Plus she did lose weight!

NO, you don't get to say it back or hit back or lash out just b/c your feelings are hurt.

You just don't. You rise above it, you set an example, you process what was said and you LEARN...you do not attack.

It's not self defense! It's just insulting your wife, again.

PLUS I don't think she was attacking you but rather, she was explaining in a nice way, why you ought to lose weight.

It matters to her. And She COULD have been much nastier. She could have said "you repel me w/your excess weight"

but she chose a rather mature, loving explanation for her comment. Then YOU chose to feel attacked b/c you're very insecure (hence all the snooping)

and then you chose to lash out and then, not surprisingly, a fight ensued. LEARN FROM THIS!

Seriously....learn from this!



Because you're not 10 years old. The more you insult her back AND then tell her you want sex, kills ALL love for you.

YES to this^^^^.....

And truly, Did you read my post? I am asking b/c I spent A LOT of time on this^^^ part
about how you lash out and go for the kill with comments about NOT being attracted to her (b/c she's "fat and ugly") and then expecting sex!!!

...has to be among the least respectful actions I've seen here. And it's something you do often. You seem to have no context for making love. It's like you need it medically and yet you act as if she owes it to you.

The "promise" she made was NOT a promise to have sex, but simply not a strong enough refusal, it was at most a "maybe" and even if she had promised, it's NOT a contract you get to sue to enforce!!

But you again put YOUR needs ahead of hers and "shook her" to wake her and then when she said she was too tired (seemed obvious to me she was tired...oh, how can I tell? B/C she was sleeping!)

You were proud that you didn't get "mad" at her for that. I don't even relate to that impulse. When my h works long hours @the hospital, and comes home late, if he's interested in ML, he'll let me know.

I might rub his back to show appreciation for his working, but I don't do it with an expectation that he'll then satisfy me then b/c hey, I WANT IT, and after all, I rubbed his back!!!!...

I know he has needs too. I try to put his needs first and I hope he does the same for me. When our marriage is at its' best, that is what is happening.

Along with the underwear test, the insane confrontation of your best friend and her, the desire to confront MORE publicly, and then bawling upstairs in the fetal position (SO NOT attractive) & the ceaseless cyber stalking, I truly believe you are lucky to still have her in the house.

Stop all this^^ insanity. Do you have anti anxiety medication? Again, what is your diagnosis? It would help me understand how to help YOU if I can anticipate your reactions to our advice.

So far you ignore almost all of it...maybe all of it?

"But this is what i mean when I say our marriage has been messed up for a while. It seemed that it was part for the course."

And likewise, it just takes ONE person to change everything around. If you treat your W with respect (especially in the hard times) she will reciprocate.

"I'm cutting back on the selfish attitude."

You should eliminate it completely and not just "cut back".

"However, I am torn between trying to do everything for my wife and being aloof and detached."

Don't confuse "Detachment" with "not caring". They are NOT the same at all. I will post to you about detachment soon. But you need to get that concept asap.

You don't need to do everything for your W and you don't need to be aloof. Just give her space and be friendly. Like how you should have been.

"Where is the balance?"

You have to figure out where that is.

"I want to pick up my work around the house and with the kids, but I know she takes a lot of pride in this. If I step on toes or mess up, she'll just get mad."

You're making assumptions. You can still be a good father and help around. Just don't get in her way.

"Should I ask her to teach me how to do the laundry or how to mop the floors the way she likes it? Or do I back off. I'm confused."

BAck off. Start by doing something small like making dinner. IF she asks why you're doing it, just tell her you felt like making dinner for a change. Just do something as simple as sweeping the floor to start and taking the kids out. Or just say that you were thinking of grabbing ice cream after dinner and take everyone. Just small gestures here and there.

You COULD tell her that you just want to help more and thank her for all the meals SHE has made...did you read my post when I mentioned the electricity getting turned off and how I handled that with my h?

It was a 180 for me. I didn't do it b/c He did "deserved" it. But I wanted to improve our marriage.

So that's what I did. Get it?


"I know I should back off, but I wanted to tell her that I was sorry for everything I did and why the marriage is in this state."

Maybe you should write a simple note just so that it's out there. Write it here first so that it passes.

Yes please post here FIRST...you must not act on your impulses...think them through

Nothing over the top. Just a simple "I'm sorry". I think writing something is good because you're not going to ask for sex in it and you're not going argue with her and call her names.

Ahem...all that ^^^ is mandatory...

"I also I did tell her she looked nice for work and I also asked if could drop the kids off at school. She looked at me real funny and asked why? I told her that I just wanted to."

That's fine. But don't BS. If you're going to do something make it REALLY because you want to and not because you want to have sex with her.


amen...b/c that is simply a tactic for YOU to get what YOU want again...being kind is done for the sake of being kind.

"She said that I could "earn" that back with trust. I'm not quite sure what she meant by that anyone have ideas."

It means what she says. She doesn't trust you. And she has a good reason and right not to.

are you kidding? What do you mean you don't know what she meant by saying that?

How about the crazy underwear test, the incessant UNRELENTING cyber stalking, the phone checking, the GPS on her car!!!! The "work around" b/c you STILL are snooping and still showing your paranoia and distrust of HER, and pervasive insecurity and fear based approach to life---- and to what end?

IF she has an OM, you still have to work on YOU!

If not, consider yourself lucky and work on YOU!

"she doesn't know that I have a work around."

Case in point. You are still betraying her trust and you say you don't understand why she doesn't trust you? Get rid of the work around and stop snooping.


I can't say it more clearly than that^^^. Stop snooping. It's so weird. And It's harmful.


"I went a whole day without snooping though."

Well, keep that up. In time you'll see that you actually have more peace from NOT snooping. I found that snooping and finding nothing did NOT ease my mind.

So Let go of what you cannot control anyhow. You are under the illusion that digging in somehow helps but it doesn't.

Let go of all those fears and obsessions b/c they take away from your personal work and my friend, you have a LOT of personal work to do.

Get rid of the work around and stop snooping period.

"However, she seems to be guarding her phone when I am around and keeping it under a pass code."

Because she doesn't trust you. Get it through your head that trust is the main issue.

YES!

"I am also looking at local retroville programs. Maybe I can convince her to attend. It might be my only hope here."

STOP! STOP! STOP! Retrouvaille and every program in the world will not help you unless YOU CHANGE. You're still the same person who she's p*ssed at, so why would she want to come back to you?

You never did answer that question - why should she come back to you?

Retrovaille is a great program for marriages in crisis. It doesn't help all the couples - but it hurts none of them...and for our group, out of 25 couples, 4 years later, 21 are still together.

Considering where we all were when we attended (8 had filed for divorce or were soon going to), that's amazing.

But you would have to listen to what THEY say and then take it in and then change your behavior.

I see no evidence of you being able to do that. Your changes so far sound very superficial, as in a compliment tossed out here and there, and a day of not snooping.

I don't believe you are ready to change YOURSELF FIRST, or enough, but if and when you are, then it'd be a great thing.

My fear is you'd go to it and stare at her to see IF YOU THINK SHE is working hard enough for YOU to choose to make an effort. You would mind read and measure and then not give an ounce more than you believe she is, etc...and the cycle of score keeping would continue.

The weird thing is, you don't realize your wife has her own scorecard and she measures things very differently. That is why, someday, both will have to lose those things...forgiveness is mandatory in all long marriages, if peace and happiness are to be achieved.

At Retrovaille, the focus in only on YOU and YOUR personal issues to work on...you are not there to tell your wife her flaws.

I fear you would keep score and measure things so much, that you would quit or only do what you thought she was doing, but not more than, b/c God forbid you give more than she does, OR think you are.... etc.

You'd have to attend it with ONE goal; becoming a better YOU.

Then maybe it could work. You're not there yet. We can try to help you get there but you'll have to LISTEN to what we say.

And to what your wife tells you too.

Again, did you read the post I wrote to you? IF not, let me know b/c there are other people I can try to help.

[Many worries]

I feel like there is about 10 people telling me a bunch of different things. so please be patient if I have questions or am confused.

I'll try to address 25 first.

The first time I got the books, I didn't read them and my wife found them. She thought it was some tricks to get her back (after my big mistake) So I threw them away in front of her.

The second time was earlier this year. I read the books a couple of times and took notes. I lost the notes. I have a learning disability where I don't always retain what I read..that is why I took the notes. I haven't located the thoughts and think my wife might have found them and tossed them. I asked her once and she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about.

I have now read the book again.

We do try not to fight in front of the kids and the worst of it was from before we had them.

I did some thinking and decided I need to change how I am for me and for my kids. If my wife doesn't change then that will be something I deal with then. I want to be a better dad and better man because they deserve it and so do I.

Tonight I backed off my wife tonight. No following, giving her space. I tried to be friendly and upbeat, but I do admit that I went in the bathroom to cry after the kids went to bed. I was so ashamed to be a grown man crying in the bathroom. I also was trigged every time my wife was texting someone- I made a mistake and asked her if she was texting her sister. she said no and that was that.

i was also triggered when my wife asked our oldest to get someone out of HER room and not Mommy and daddy's room. it seems that in only a few days she's gotten rid of all the stuff that used to be mine in there and is now calling in her space. She put my stuff in a box by the door to the inlaw apartment. I guess I deserve it.

I also asked to talk about the computer issue. I told her that I need access to the computer and since we split the bills she had no right to put a lock on it. She said that I broke her trust by snooping, that here was nothing going on with my friend, but I screwed up that friendship pretty bad, she said I acted like a complete azz. I apologized for that and she looked stunned. In the end we compromised and she said that she'd but a guest account that I could use.

I never said I saw a therapist for years. I saw him earlier this year. I admit I didn't go into the sessions with the right approach. i wasn't 100% honest with him and my progress suffered, then I stopped going.

I found a new councilor today who is familiar with Michelle's work. I'm also considering the telephone sessions when some extra money becomes available.

with respect to my health, I wanted to see a doctor about lap band surgery to help with my weight issue. I wanted to see if it was an option. In the mean time, I worked on a exercise plan - that includes walking 3+ miles every other day, and on the off days, I will do some light weights and stuff.

[MrBond]

"I feel like there is about 10 people telling me a bunch of different things. so please be patient if I have questions or am confused."

Because you're not listening. Everyone has told you the SAME thing. You're just not listening or are selectively listening.

"I did some thinking and decided I need to change how I am for me and for my kids."

Really? this is what EVERYONE has been telling you from Day one. You're not listening.

"If my wife doesn't change then that will be something I deal with then."

NOr should she have to change. From my perspective, you're the one that needs to change. All of her actions are as a result of what you did.