The house is for sale. So sad, Family is breaking.

[FloydMan]

Thanks! - Yes, I agree and we discussed that in therapy. We both neglected each other’s emotional needs, but to her that seems weak in a man. I chose other outlets other than an A. I did more coaching and stuff with the kids. She does like sex and we were doing it, but is not that much of a ‘cuddler’. She never complained about the frequency, but the intimacy outside the BR she says was missing.
I also agree on the consistent changes. I did not show enough of that especially when my anxiety ran high because of the breach of trust that she refused/refuses to deal with. I needed to manage that in a different way, though the therapist said she must be engaged in that process too.
I agree too that she is trying to drive me away with her anger and treatment of me. I don’t see any hint of guilt though, just distain. This is getting very contentious on the legal front as she is making it – she is adamant about no reconciliation and having more custody of the kids and dog.
I don’t want to show he the book, but rather the 2 day intensive with Michelle. I don’t think I can convince her.
No, I am definitely not pushing for a D….the opposite. She knows this and is angrier that I am stalling and disagreeing with it. She seems full steam ahead and even the other day said “would I have gone this far if it’s not what I wanted?”. She seems so full of resolve.
We are in Canada (Toronto area) and here, you need Separation for 1 year before filing for divorce, but all legal matters are settled during separation (custody, financial settlements, selling of marital home etc). It’s a no-fault divorce jurisdiction.
We will be having a meeting with her lawyer, my lawyer, me and her in a few weeks to settle financials and negotiate terms. My lawyer is big on reconciliation, hers is not. He wants to take a run at her and give her the ‘real’ facts about D and what we are getting into. almost a scared straight tactic.
One of the other things that helped her conviction of Sep/D was the exposure of the separation in May to family and friends. She waited until Father’s Day (late June) to remove her wedding ring. She got up that morning and told me “Today I will stop wearing my ring”. Happy Father’s Day. I did not respond.
Are your two staring to work it out? Is there a possibility with you two? Were you this far down the path legally etc?

[AnotherStander]

She does like sex and we were doing it, but is not that much of a ‘cuddler’. She never complained about the frequency, but the intimacy outside the BR she says was missing.

Right, that's exactly what I meant. Women need constant nurturing outside of the bedroom while men are content with a roll in the hay every few days. Have you read the 5 Love Languages? Great book for understanding this better.

I don’t want to show he the book, but rather the 2 day intensive with Michelle. I don’t think I can convince her.

Oh, I understand now. Yeah, it sounds like you're in a tough spot right now. Maybe reevaluate that in a couple of months. Your job right now is to act "as if" everything is fine (even with the D proceeding) and not react to your W's storming. Picture a lighthouse, you're the solid lighthouse built on rock shining a beacon of hope and warmth while your wife is the raging sea smashing against the rocks. She can rage and flail about, but you remain rock solid and stable. Just picture that when she's going postal on you. Don't react to her, just be solid, confident and content, and exude PMA.

We are in Canada (Toronto area) and here, you need Separation for 1 year before filing for divorce

That is FANTASTIC for you. Some states here in the US have gone to that, but many others have much shorter terms. The reason so many jurisdictions have gone to the 1 year wait is because it's been proven in studies that most marital issues resolve themselves in less than a year even if neither partner does a thing to fix it!! It really is true about time healing wounds. So just settle in, try to get through the S proceedings as peacefully as possible, stick to your DB'ing and give your W time and space.

My lawyer is big on reconciliation, hers is not. He wants to take a run at her and give her the ‘real’ facts about D and what we are getting into. almost a scared straight tactic.

Doubtful it'll have any impact on her, but if it's coming from your L and not you then I don't think it'll hurt your sitch either.

Are your two staring to work it out? Is there a possibility with you two? Were you this far down the path legally etc?

No piecing here yet. The only discovery is that W is still confused about what to do. She's expressed confusion ever since BD. She thought moving out would bring clarity and it didn't. She's not at all happy. But she's not to the point of wanting to reconcile. That could be months away (or never). I just have to keep giving her space. I just hope that if she decides to reconcile I haven't moved on to another R. That's my biggest concern- she'll decide to come back after I'm done.

[FloydMan]

Yes, we both read 5 Love languages back last Dec\Jan. She even referred it to some friends and was into it and we were starting to connect and had a very good Nov, Dec, Jan and most of Feb except when I wanted to deal with trust at end of Feb and the A and all went south. We started to recover a little Mar after her second round of begging, but I think she was just buying time until she decided.
Lost my job today after almmost 17 years there and good money....that won't help. I am well connected so I plan to take Dec off and begin anew in Jan. She will not be impressed though...I guess I cannot wory about wwhat she thinks though and work on me, right?

[FloydMan]

Though she did not read the last part of 5LL' about infidelity and did not shsare her on-line quiz results with me either. all she said was she was surprised and not what she thought ot would be. How could I help in our relationship if she won't share. BTW I am even score on Physical Touch and Words of affirmation. I have a feeling she was Gifts and/or Words. She alsways denies she needs words of support and is not superficial almost in a defensive way. Though in hindsight she does spend and like nice things and always liked compliments, although she bluntly says NOT to say 'anything nice' to her now.

[FloydMan]

Anyone else have any other thoughts? Wife is bent on selling home and separating to divorce. Plus take the kids with me only every other weekend and Wednesdays. Says feels 'nothing' for me. She must feel something because it comes across as hate and distain.
Says she has never had independence in her life. (a mutual friend told me she said this recently) Her parents were very controlling (European) and gave her and her 2 sisters no freedom. She married me when she was 27 and lived at home until then. Does it really come down to feeling tied down and discovering herself? Can we not be ourselves and individuals in the context of marriage? All I ever asked for was honesty, communication, etiquette and courtesy after her affair. I wanted to build trust. She was unwilling to give that. She is 45. Is this a mid-life? This seems so wrong. The kids are hurting. She is telling people they are fine. They are not.

[longrun]

Your first priority is now to arrange the transition to the new job. Regarding your wife you are still asking too many questions. Put yourself in the center of your thoughts. Do what is good for you. Let your wife do whatever she wants to and detach from her.

[Breakdown]

I read your sitch the other day, but agreed with AS posts and didn't respond individually. I'm circling back, but didnt reread, so I apologize if my questions have already been answered?

What are/were your W's issues with the M?

What have you done to address those issues?

What childhood issues does your W have?

What have you both done to heal from the A and rebuild trust? This is a two way street.

No offense, but you seemed to have flip flopped a few times which I'm sure is confusing to your W. Do you know where you stand now? If you really want to heal it, then you have to stop pushing her away when you are hurt (I'm assuming that's what you've been doing).

From the little bit here, I think you are focusing a lot on W and not much on you. The only thing you can control is you, so that really should be your focus. Have you truly forgiven her? What are the things you think you have done that are destructive to the M? How do you want to change?

The issue you mention about your W not wanting to deal with childhood issues....that is a difficult thing. You can't force it. You can only be supportive. Are you pushing too hard? Are you blaming those issues for your own short comings?

[sandi2]

You said she did not want to discuss childhood trauma with the C. Do you know the details of that trauma?

“Says she has never had independence in her life. (a mutual friend told me she said this recently) Her parents were very controlling (European) and gave her and her 2 sisters no freedom. She married me when she was 27 and lived at home until then.”

Why didn’t she move out of the parent’s house when she became an adult?

The word that stands out to me in that paragraph is “freedom”. Freedom is a big issue to most WAW’s. (Your W may be in MLC, as well, but I’ll just use the term WAW, for now.) When I was a WAW, I wanted to be free so badly. I didn’t want to have anyone breathing down my neck. I didn’t want to give an account to anyone. I wasn’t as old as your W when I got M, but I left my parents and went to my H’s house……so I had never lived out on my own. I think I understand her resenting not having the chance (or not taking it) before being tied down in a lifelong R.

Some men may have trouble understanding why the W wouldn’t feel free in the M. In my case, it was never a problem….until I was caught up in an A. “Then” I wanted out so I could do whatever I wanted……which at the time….was an A. My H was not a controlling person, but after he found evidence of the A, he started trying to catch me in the act. Even before he confronted me about the A, he began trying to control where I went, etc. He didn’t trust me to leave town by myself, etc. He had every right not to trust me! But my response to his behavior was much like your W’s has been to you since she left.

You are trying to save the M, but she sees it as you controlling her life. Whenever you try to get her to read a book, go to therapy, or get a session with Michele…..she feels controlled. And, just like many teenagers do….she rebels.

I wonder if she was not allowed to be a normal teenager. If not, and if they tried to keep her locked up at home, then that might be cause for a MLC, but IDK. Just makes sense to me.

I know you can’t help what she experienced when she was growing up, but you can stop doing things that trigger her anger, resentment, etc., now. She may very well see you in much of the same light as her parents. You are stalling…..not just the D, but her life (in her opinion) and she’s ready to move on so she can find something that will make her happy.

I am a little confused about something in your story. The two of you went several months doing well, after the A. Then you wanted to discuss trust? That’s when she bucked up about it? I don’t understand. Did she do something in that time that caused you not to trust her again? Was forgiveness not mentioned when you decided to stay with and not get a D? Was the A or her feelings about OM ever discussed? I’m trying to figure out why you waited so late (and especially with things going so well in the R) before you brought it up. This must have really thrown her if she thought all of the A business was over and the two of you were moving forward. It sure would have upset me if my H brought up the fact he had trust issues with me months after I thought we had R. It would have felt like a huge backslide. Why then? And why did you feel like she had not earned….or had to earn your trust at that point? I could see why……right after the A, but months after you had R?

Then there’s the matter of her feeling like you had cameras or PI’s or whatever. How were you behaving that caused her to feel that way? It must have been something in order to give her that “being watched” feeling.

You can’t continue to do the same behavior that causes her to be so angry toward you, if it’s something you can do to stop it, b/c that only hurts your attempts in trying to save the R. Why would you believe she would want to have a MC talk to her, or your lawyer no less? She doesn’t want to save the M! And the more you try to cram these things down her throat, the more she feels CONTROLLED!

I’m not defending her actions towards the kids. But I do think that it’s all due to the desperation she is feeling right now. Yes, she’s just as desperate as you but for different reasons. The more pressure you put on her, the more likely it will cause her to not be so nice acting as a mom. Plus, you don’t want a D and the kids don’t want a D, so she probably feels like the bad guy with everyone and that makes her even angrier at everyone. Everyone except her lawyer! There is no telling what he might be telling her to keep her stirred up. He probably makes more money if she gets a D, rather than her stay in the M. So, he’s going to tell her how she deserves to take you for everything you’ve got.

And the thought of sitting down and having “your” lawyer talk advise her about anything, much less how a D would affect her life……is very unlikely. Her lawyer is not going to let that happen. And if she did…….he would have a “come-back” to everything your lawyer said.

My advice is to end your attempts of stopping the D by getting her to do what you think she needs to do, and start working on improving yourself and giving her a better reason to stay with you (which should be b/c you are wonderful man) and not out of pressure and defeat that she’s feeling now. Oh, I know that some could say that she’s put herself here, and I would be the first to agree (on most points, anyway). However, you might as well be trying to put out a forest fire by throwing gasoline on the trees. It’s not working.

How about trying something different?

[FloydMan]

Thanks Breakdown.
Makes a lot of sense.
Q1) Wife said when we started therapy it was about “quality time” and we did not spend as much time together and drifted apart. My job was very demanding, made good money but it was stressful. I made 2x as much as she. I am sure there were times when I was quiet or had a tough day and mood was not great, but she worked wonky hours too and I was feeling the same and needing to fill a void. I took on a 2nd team to coach which she supported, in fact recommended.
Q2) I started to work less and dropped one team and so we could spend more time together. Was less money and I let her know that but it was still very good (1 ½ x more than her) but her spending issues and wants continued to grow and debt grew, though we made plenty of money, the debt should not have grown. That caused stress. Even though I believed I did as much around the house, especially with kids I took on more of her share.
Q3) her parent issues were controlling, invasive parents that did not allow for much freedom or privacy. They are very European (Portuguese).
Q4) We only discussed the affair in the first session of therapy. It was explained why these things happen and we were told that we would address the main issues, but the affair and trust building would need to be dealt with in a few months. This was both therapist’s recommendation and the book “After the affair” and 5 Love Languages. I really bought into the program. After a few months when we addressed many of the previous issues the therapist said we were ready and wanted to work on it and discuss it as things were going well. My wife agreed, but every scheduled session we had to deal with it my wife would change topic and start something new. This told me she was avoiding it and went on for months. She still wanted her privacy and not to have to deal with it or have her life an open book as was recommended and as mine was. She was very defensive if I even asked her plans for the day. That gave me anxiety.

Yes, I have flip-flopped (we both have) but I never really in my heart wanted this to happen. Where I stand is the belief in marriage and being a partnership and being honest. I felt trapped and felt she was avoiding and keeping more secrets. She was very private. Perhaps I was wrong is assuming maybe she was still having an A, but there was never any proof or actions that suggested not.
I definitely did pressure and that was destructive. The anxiety was destructive. I did forgive her as it took me a long time to understand how A’s happen and I ate a lot of crow, but the behaviour and secrecy afterwards confused all that. We were given trust exercise etc but she scoffed at it and said she would do it her way. All I really wanted was a real, genuine look in the eye and promise it would never happen again along with common marriage or partnership etiquettes. Not even just for me, as the kids would always ask, “where’s mommy, when will she be home”. It’s hard when you cannot answer your kids on that.

[FloydMan]

Hi Sandi2,

Q1) Her parents were controlling. I know she had an abusive boyfriend in her late teens that did hit her. Her parents liked him and were friends with his parents and her mother told her she was “damaged goods” when she broke up with him. My gut tells me there is more, but I do not know….she never wanted to share. I had a good, positive Catholic upbringing; she did not and lately wants nothing to do with faith mot God.

Q2) I don’t know why she never moved out, maybe culture? She had a lot of disposable income without paying rent, use of car etc.

Q3) The A was supposed to be discussed after we worked on some things which we did and all was working but I was keeping my mouth shut about it for months. The therapist then said it was time for that discussion and trust. When she kept stalling and 180ing the topic in therapy over the next couple of months my anxiety grew and she was being very secretive. She would not deal with it. I could not figure out if it was an internal struggle with guilt or she wanted a secret life outside the perfect looking family. We never got to that. She wanted to sweep it under the carpet. The therapist warned that was not a good idea. About the OM- She said at first she thought there was a connection but said it was not her and was just sex. She said I am a better person inside. He is a cop (at detective). She also said I am better looking and our sex was not the problem but she lost attraction in me when my confidence waned. She complimented me in therapy about our sex. (inside I was nervous when the topic came up). We did have regular sex before and after A. 1-3x per week. At first after the A, I did not want to but honestly speaking she really pursued sex with me. This with all the begging she did to save the M. I am a stupid, typical man I guess.

Q4) re; cameras, and PI accusation: I really don’t know, probably my anxiety. I really did not do much, but she thinks I did. She has made all kinds of accusations like that but they are not true. It only made me feel she was paranoid or hiding something and that would drive my anxiety. It is a vicious cycle. Both therapists did tell her, and one on her own she needed to be an open book and she got angry and refused.


Your points seem so bang on and insightful. Like your husband, I was never ever controlling or suspicious prior to the A. She has acknowledged that too. Your story with your H sounds very similar in that way. How did that turn around?

In therapy once, she said “when I hear his voice, I hear my father”. Oddly, he calls her by a different name, has a very different voice and speaks Portuguese. That scared me, but I think I get it now.

If I knew then what I know now about therapy and getting the right kind (solutions-based) etc. Maybe, just maybe it would be different. Who knows? I just do not want to split up and want to be nice. It starts by being nice and considerate, no? She rejects my niceness….she does not trust it.
People are telling me to give up, so I know she is getting the same influence. Definitely her lawyer will be out for $.
Your last point is great, but time is not on our side it seems. Ya, I am desperate, and it shows.