Welcome to catch-22

[25yearsmlc]

Bruce, my words are in blue...OR they have **** in front b/c sometimes the color bar does not work...

Mes tres chers amis,
All your insights and words of encouragement are truly appreciated. I will expose the facts as honestly as possible, so I can realize some truths and amend my course of action accordingly. Thank you, thank you.

Yes but you said those things HERE and so I assume it shows in your behavior. You said she isn't going to church anymore and then you did some mind reading about why. You said it's B/c "she's living in sin" but you never explained that condemning comment.

Well, I meant, the D decision in itself is a sin. I shared that with you because I vent here, but never accused her of that. That wouldn't have changed her. I know better.

Not only is saying the divorce is a sin, to her, useless, it's NOT productive for YOU to even think that way. Seriously, it's just more of the same old you.

You keep the focus on HER instead of you - and YOU are where YOUR focus must be. Period.

I swear I still do not know what YOU feel you did wrong or what you're working on. You gloss over the "minor neglect" and 'things you may have missed when she was sulking"

But Bruce, that's a result of your self centeredness.

When she was happy, all was well. But when she needed something from you SHE was NOT happy b/c you were not paying attention to her or the baby and when she felt lousy

it took energy for YOU to figure out why AND you may have had to DO something different--

so it was a LOT easier for you to ignore it and then blame her for her sulking...

Learn this^^^ lesson...it's a big one.

I'm glad you got some help then. Why not keep it up? That is NOT an insult.

Yes, maybe I should go back to the counselor. I had the impression he listened to me, showed empathy, but never instructed me what to do or give me advice. When I share my problems, I want solutions, not someone who listens to me.


You need a "solution based therapist" (and fyi, Div Busting IS solution based)

and I understand that need. I agree that listening and rehashing the past can be "nice" but not very productive.

So ask the therapist when you call for an appointment. Our solution based MC said if we were not changing any behaviors within 5-6 sessions,

we needed a new therapist.

When I hear a friend tell me she's seen a therapist for a year and has not changed, then I think she just wants to pay for someone to hear her...

First, did she SAY or ACT as if she'd meet you and you could be with her and then NOT show up,
OR did she warn you of wanting a divorce, but you thought it would blow over?

Second, why did her family treat you so badly too? What was your relationship like with them before all this?

- Well, she actually said she wouldn't come to meet me, but I never thought one spouse could ever do that to her H.


To me, that^ means you blew it off. Plain and simple. She told you. You showed up as if she had NOT and then you blamed her for her poor treatment and your shock.

Can you see how a lot of this was self inflicted? YES BRUCE- you did it to yourself.

She told you she would not be there. You still expected her to be. Then she wasn't. Then you blamed her and you still feel sorry for yourself about what she told you would happen. THAT is self inflicted harm you did to yourself.

LEARN FROM THIS....

- As for the insights as to why her parents wouldn't welcome me, either they've listened too closely to W's complaints and taken sides even before I arrived. Or they never liked me really. Info : they didn't come to our wedding.Her sister didn't come, her brother didn't come. Reason: it wasn't a good time of the year, people are busy. I bought it at the time.

Really? You bought that NONE of them could attend, b/c of the time of year?

Did you marry on Christmas Eve, with short notice?

Come on Bruce...why was it okay for you that your wife's family was clearly NOT thrilled with her marrying you?

Why didn't you care about that before now?

Don't get me wrong. SOME in laws can be mean or weird. My MIL hated that I was Catholic...for real, that bothered her so much she did not come to our son's baptism....

but I gather it was something else about you that you are pretending not to know.

Had they met you?

We never spoke on tel due to hour difference, or written cards for Xmas, I don't need to dig deep to see I was just the guy who stole their precious daughter.


OMG....THAT ^^^ IS NOT DIGGING DEEP....Jesus...wake up!

Please tell me that you now realize this "acceptance" of her schedule was NOT seen as "cooperative" of you.

It was seen as more evidence of how uninvolved you are as a father. It proved her negative image of you was true.

EYE OPENER HERE! I saw it as being agree-able and kind, I was being lazy, and uninvolved again!

Just that you are glad to be able to do it and look forward to more time WITH HIM...don't mention time with HER...she has made it clear that she does not want that, for now.

How am I supposed to make her understand that her company is enjoyable and that is what I want then?

[color:#3366FF]
*******You can't "make her" understand or do or feel anything...or show her much all at once at the beginning.

Right now your goal is showing you are a caring father...that's probably all you can do for now. It's enough for you now anyhow since you NEVER ONCE have watched him even for a minute.

Try as you might, that cannot be all her fault...period.

Baby steps....LATER On when you two can co-parent, THEN you can build on the
camaraderie you feel, maybe*****.

Then ask open ended questions, such as her comments, thoughts, opinion on matters (NOT related to the marriage or relationship)
and about her dreams or her goals, NOT related to you directly OR indirectly...it's not a reconnaissance mission (yet) it's to get her to open up more with you

That's what I call a good advice. Thank you!

I not only said and written things, I have acted on it as well. The way I treat her now is focus on her and my son : opposite of what I used to do. If you have suggestions of what other things I could be doing to show my goodwill, I'd most certainly appreciate.

Please be more specific b/c "the opposite" isn't clear to me. Tell me 2 or 3 things SHE WOULD complain about if she were here, that you did...that you can or have changed.

Well, err, I NEVER complained about the cold, the snow, the rent prices, the city, the country, how short the visits were (maybe I should have), the food, how lonely I was or the fricking lack of mountains, sea or things to do. In normal circumstances, I would have let her know how cold and boring this place is and how we were going to get the f out of here.

BRUCE READ MY QUESTION^^ AGAIN...OMG...please get this.

I asked you what SHE would COMPLAIN ABOUT ---regarding YOU, NOT the weather or what YOU hate...

this amazes me. You still don't see how negative & judgmental you sound and SO NOT FUN to be around...you need to get this SOON...you sound like a man who does not know how to love someone so that their needs are ;put ahead of his own AND you sound really negative and snobby too.

I sought more time with my son, even asked to have him overnight, one night a week, but she always resisted my efforts.

Don't blame her for this. The Court will ask about how it was in France and it doesn't sound as if you did much there.[/color]

It doesn't count back in France, because she was breast-feeding, as if I could do it. And she jumped out of bed in the middle of the night when the baby sighed, so of course I let her go and didn't bothered.


It DOES count if the judge or social worker asks what your prior parenting was like. I'm a L and I ask that you stop assuming your past does not matter. It does.

Your son is only 19 months...you've missed most of it. And the "i didn't bother" does NOT make you sound concerned. You sound as if you are whining and rolling your eyes and could not care less why the boy was crying or "sighing"...No offense but you better lose that attitude asap...

your sarcasm makes you sound like a real jerk, btw.

But I don't blame her for fearing giving up our son, and I admit having made a huge mistake in giving the impression I was not concerned.

I gently kept reminding her that I'd love to get more involved in my son's life.

and as we said before, that^^ was not getting you reconciled. It was cementing the lousy visitation she arranged for your son.

I see this now. Since, 5 minutes ago.

She told you she wanted a divorce. Those things cost money. As long as she could get you to act in fear and remain paralyzed into inaction, she could wait on the divorce AND

she could dictate the terms. In fact she did just that. The longer you allowed that the harder it will be for you to get it fixed.

Yes, I was afraid of the D word. Still am in fact. Didn't want to encourage her in that direction. I wanted her to reconsider. Make peace with me. Sit and have a conversation. Something, but not D..

THIS filing of yours is the first ACTION you have taken that says otherwise...

True. Thanks to you all my friends. I'm grateful you were here to guide me when my "strategy" didn't work, and helped me take the step.

IF your son doesn't know you now well enough to feel comfy going off with you ...
maybe your w will spend longer periods of time with the two of you. But I wonder about you learning to be his dad WITHOUT a member of her family OR HER being there.

Wouldn't that be a blast if she came home to "teach" me to take care of him, then realized it's the place where she always should have been?

Oh I'm getting ahead of myself here...

[color:#3333FF]

********yes you are, but it has occurred to me as a LONG TERM goal of yours...getting her to see you with him AFTER you have bonded and gotten comfortable. Don't rush that b/c the minute you "blow it" or he cries or you drop him or don't feed him right, if she's a witness then that's a big set back.

Get to know him and understand that there will be mistteps. You will miss a cue but if you stay with it, you'll find what he likes and what comforts him and IF SHE tries to help you, listen to her....

but do it on your own

or you'll always dump it on her-- and then blame her for it.*******

Although her filing for D is in a sense, her getting mad at me for asking to have my son more time.

Hello?? Here, ^^^you are already negatively mind reading about her motives for filing!

Hey, I'm an engineer, not a psychologist. When someone files for D, I don't need to be a mind-reader to understand she is angry about something I did or afraid of something, like you said.
[/color]

Try to recall my suggestion that you keep the legal matters separate from your fathering efforts...and

don't mention the legal matters at all.

Let her associate the ugly part of this with the lawyers you pay money to...and the time spent with your son interacting with him as his dad, as a totally separate issue.

Great advice. Will focus on that in the coming days..

To show generosity and less self-centredness, I gave her back in July a check of big amount, to "help with the expenses".

well, that's a nice gesture. But It's money...and she benefitted by not filing yet...and she probably saw it as a bribe, but then felt entitled to it...

You know, there's only so much I can do : write letters, write emails, telephone (to her parents house), give money to her, say hello how are you when we meet, buy toys for my son, play with him and say good-bye I had a nice time when we part.

Let me ask you this, what do you believe her love languages are?

The worse thing is that I even read the book a couple of years ago, mind you!
And if you want my opinion, I'm not sure what she sees as a loving thing, maybe the Acts of Service one as number 1, followed by Quality time I'd say.


So then a $$$check would NOT have been in her love language, but simply an easy gesture for you to make? Yes I know money counts as money and I am not minimizing it, but what if you planned an activity for her and your son to go one with you?

LIke I said, the zoo or a chldren''s museum---something CHILD centered.

A check for money is so NOT time consuming and it's NOT quality time together or an act of service, that I can see someone viewing it as a bribe or worse...

and an easy fix. ALSO it seems you gave it with an expectation of something from her in return and a woman can pick up on that fast.

Then it's NOT so welcome. B/c hey, it's not such a gift. It's a trade off, right? And you are angry she did not express gratitude, too...so she has a point,

n'est ce pas?

I don't know what you mean by this^^^ other than writing a check to her. You said she is better around you too, so I guess you DID get something in return. But as for your kindness and love and attention (when? The ONE day a week you see them?)

It's two times a week I see them, and it's 1,5 hour each time.
And I showed kindness and all, by, you know, being smiley, giving compliments, asking her about her day, what courses she was taking, when's the next test, how is her part time job. Frankly, what else can I do? My maneuver margin is very limited.


think about an act of service or a quality time activity as I mentioned. OR get her car fixed, or buy a USEFUL gift for the boy that she'd have to get otherwise and OR volunteer to go with her to check out the daycare (you have that right anyhow)

Can you tell us WHAT SHE SAID were the reasons and please, please you must be as specific as possible so we can advise accordingly.

Since all your posts are so good in general, I will trust you and paste-copy a portion of the Bomb email she sent me in June

Bruce, I suggest you gear up and post the whole thing (minus intimate issues if you prefer) b/c I have to say I still feel like things are left out here and I cannot imagine why.

Sure you are embarassed but hey, I don't know you! You're pretty safe here.



:"We disagree strongly on key issues, notably in the areas of finances, child-rearing and the importance of family in terms of priority level. These fundamental differences between us have made it impossible for me to consider a fulfilling, long-term...etc..."
(Note. Finances = translate : I spent the money on fun things for me.)


Read it again Bruce...just this part^^^ is NOT translating to me that you buy yourself things and no one else. She mentions child rearing but I guess you ignored it b/c you ignored him????

The money is only a part of it....think hard.
DIG DEEPER and my guess is that I'm sugggesting you dig deeper than you ever have before.
Looks like we've pin-point the culprit reason, haven't we?

um, NO

Did YOU ever arrange mc in France? Did you seek out pastoral counselling? I mean, what did you do to save the marriage when it was crumbling around her?

None of it. I didn't have a clue.


Au revoir, a bientôt.

[Big Bruce]

Bonsoir,
After much hesitation, here's the bomb email.(June 2012)

Dear Bruce,

This is a difficult, yet important email for me to write.

Our marriage has not been an easy one. We disagree strongly on key issues, notably in the areas of finances, child-rearing and the importance of family in terms of priority level. These fundamental differences between us have made it impossible for me to consider a fulfilling, long-term future with you. In truth, I believe continuing our relationship will only result in increased frustration and disagreements for both of us.

After much consideration and legal advice, I have decided to separate from you, effective immediately. I intend to seek divorce after a one-year separation period.

While you have received permission from the government of Canada to immigrate, I believe for your sake that is best for you to remain in France, close to the sea and mountains you love, close to the comfort of your family.

I am willing to explain the situation to XXX to save you the embarrassment of why you are no longer coming to YYY.

I will not seek to any part of our joint assets in France, nor maintenance payments.

I would like for you and Bruce André to maintain a positive relationship and to keep in contact through phone, Skype and the exchange of pictures.

I am deeply saddened that our relationship has deteriorated. For the sake of our son, I hope we can maintain a cordial relationship.

Given the time difference and the emotional difficulty of this topic, I would ask that you respond by email.

There isn't more information in this email than what I already disclosed. Besides, all the things that happened in the meantime changed the situation. Like, I arrived and am here now, I don't spend extravagant money on me anymore, and I said she and our my son were my priority number 1. Now, there's the lawyers thing too..

All your posts are so good, I recopied them by hand on my Learning journal. And my thoughts on my Thoughts journal are all around these new truths I discover each day. How could I not see these things before is a mistery.

Bonne soirée,
B.

[Big Bruce]

Good evening Mister Bond,

I get that you use humor to hide any insecurities you may be feeling but you're coming across as not truly listening.

True, it is one of my anti-qualities. Not listening. But I'm working on it, it's tough.

From your background, I understand how you want someone to tell you the secret formula to saving your M and how to be a good H. No one can do that. No one can teach you compassion or empathy. You have to learn it yourself.

I understand. Listening and having empathy go hand in hand... I have lotsa work...

As for your W, you think that being nice, complimenting, etc. is what you need to do. It just comes off as fake and unreal. Treat her the way she should have been treated. Do not go over the top.

I get your point. When one is desperate, maybe one swings the pendulum too far. I will pay attention to being more "normal" around her. Same things with gifts, I stopped overkilling because it was getting too much.

Go back and replay those little comments she would make about your bad habits. See it from her point of view. If you can honestly see that, then you might be able to save your family.

Honestly, I don't remember precisely what all her bad humour and sulk was all about all the time. I only remember reproaches over reproaches, and my feeling relieved when she finally went to bad or left me alone (no pun intended), because I wasn't paying attention, as I should have.

Thank you, your insight is really sharp and to the point. At least it gives me changes to work on, and albeit no mathematical formula to save my M, at least food for thought and behaviour changing tips.

Bonsoir,
B.

[chatterbug]

Hey Bruce.

You are getting a ton of questions and advice.


I have only 2 question for you.

They are simple.

Do you have a lawyer?
Do you understand the rights of a father in the province your living in?

This has no outcome on the status of relationship

[25yearsmlc]

Chatterbug

not to speak for Bruce, but if I understood correctly, yes he has a lawyer and his L filed for shared custody recently...

Bruce, how did your w take it when she saw the filing?

Also Bruce, I' will ponder your response in more detail. Really read Bond's post to you again since he's male it may help you more.

OTOH when I see him ask you about her specific complaints and you refer to them as "sulking" and HER bad humor, it makes me think you are missing the point.

Also, her letter sounds resolute (as they often do) and it sounds as if you have been fighting a lot before she wrote it.

It does NOT sound like something that came out of the blue,

or she'd have been listing examples and specifics. She didn't feel the need to do that though-

and it's probably b/c she thinks anyone in your shoes would know what she's referring to...

make sense?

[MrBond]

I agree with 25.

Actually your W's letter was very thoughtful and addressed everything that went wrong in the M. In fact, it sound like she really thought about what she thought you would want based on how you were treating her.

She mentions how you didn't seem interested in spending time with her and your son. How you spent money on yourself rather on their needs and how you didn't want to move, but she had to because she felt trapped.

Very straight forward if you ask me.

Start changing your attitude on those things first.

[labug]

Her email was well-written, measured, polite and to the point. There was not sulking or bad humor.

As Bond said she even took your feelings into account.

Why was it so difficult to post it here?

[MrBond]

"Why was it so difficult to post it here?"

I think it was a matter of pride.

[Big Bruce]

Bonsoir,
Well, this email is, in a sense, the evidence of my failure. A failure which consequnces makes my life really not enjoyable anymore, if worth living at all. Thus why I was reluctant in exposing the whole world what is so intimately painful in my innermost being.

Yes, I have a lawyer, and it looks like in my province, like almost anywhere, since I am a "normal" person, I should be getting the shared custody.

I have to explain though, that I had the intention of filing for shared custody, but my wife, feeling threatened to lose her precious full custody, beat me to the clock, and filed first!. She went to her L, file for 100% custody, proposing to allow me visits, (as if), and asking for D in the same petition.
I, in return, filed for a counter-petition which is only a legal response to her filing first.

Her L must have received it on Monday, but my L went on vacation this week. Upon reception, the two L are supposed to have a little chat, if I understood well. I'm hoping that, seen the extravangacy of her request and my refusal and my 50% proposition, her L will be sensible enough to convince her that it is not worth pursuing the 100% custody petition.

In case she is still unreasonnable and still wants to fight my request, we will have to fill a notice of motions, which means basically asking for a trial. But it won't make her win time because in the meantime, I can ask for immediate relief, which means 50% of time with my son.

Is it well explained, Mrs. Lawyeress ? (or isn't it the same procedure everywhere?)

Anyway, so far, no reaction on their part that I know of. I asked to postpone today's visit because I have my work Christmas reception today (which she refused to join, understandably). And she asked if we could postpone the visit to Saturday instead of tomorrow. So, it's as if nothing changed, we're still planning/postponing visits.
No email, no phone call, no mention of the legal process going on in parallel.
If she doesn't bring it up, I won't either. As it has been suggested, I will let her associate the ugly part of paying her L and "losing" the legal battle over our son, by herself.

I, will dissociate from it all. First, because I've only been involved because of her refusal to give our son up. She has to cut the umbilical cord with young Bruce. I don't want to be associated with the negative feelings she will have about spending the money and "being wrong".

I am after all, a truly concerned father, who is only asking to help raise his son, whom I love and care for.

Later maybe, if things are not reconciled between us still, I will ask her help for little Brucie, maybe call to ask advice, invite her to join in an activity we'll be participating in (kid museum, pet store, fun house, swimming pool, etc...) in the view of showing that indeed, I am a family man big time.

All her reasons to separate have dissolved : 1.I'm here and not complaining. 2. I am not spending the money on anything. 3. I'm asking and acting to have more time with my son (and her).
Talk about 180 degree, this is a Pi radian turn !

[LITB]

Bruce,

Out of curiosity, how long were you and your W together prior to getting married? What was your R like before your M? Is there anything significant that you can identify that was different?

Also, did either of you have any long term relationships prior to meeting? If so, why did they not work?

By what I've read to this point, the main difference is that your son entered the picture. You have mentioned that you felt like you took a backseat in her priorities once he was born, which was very early in your M. I'm sure that created some resentment from you, which naturally you would distance yourself. She would then do the same and each of you would keep score.

How important was it for her to have children? Was having a child early in your M planned?

I'm asking all of these questions to get my arms wrapped around your sitch.