WAS vs. LBS

[Crazyville]

Can you narrow this down to a topic, please? Worked for "what"?

[Crazyville]

And just to respond generically, the half-dozen counselors we've had through the years have all tried things as well. They're trained and therefore much more qualified than me. They don't dislike H. They had different approaches and different methods. H didn't apply any of it. He doesn't remember what we talked about or what was advised to him. By my definition, it didn't work.

[mamabird]

Just to back track a bit - regarding the email. What I picked up was that you each are expressing your own agendas. Of course, I'm fresh from MC and the counselor drilled into us the idea of listening to the other person without trying to interject your own arguments into the conversation.

Each of you just wants to be heard and get their own point across. No one (at least in this conversation) is acknowledging the other person - at all. Is that a dynamic you normally have? You both have reasonable statements but you completely miss each other in this exchange. This is what happens in my sitch all the time, and now that it's been pointed out, I'm going to try to focus on just listening.

[~ kd ~]

Sorry CV, I can't help.

[Crazyville]

Thanks RLA, that's exactly the disjunct I was referring to. Yes, it happens all the time. I'm aware of it happening all the time. I try to reign it in, but like in this exchange, H just repeats himself or continues on his own agenda in different words. I've read on here before where the WAS says that they felt like they weren't being heard. I can definitely relate to that.

KD, I can't think outside the box. I've been living in the box for so long, it's all I can see. I don't have any ideas or any suggestions to assist you with trying to help. I appreciate your efforts and I understand how difficult it would be to come up with anything when I can't give you any leads. Any leads I had I already tried.

I'm confused because it seems like I get a lot of instruction about changing my perspective. Then SS and I ask what that would look like regarding unquestionable lying, for example. I still don't know. I would like some specific examples on changing my perspective on specific problems.

I'm told I'm supposed to change me and my actions, but not to do it expecting a response from H. But I don't know what that is. The things I have changed about me because it's something I want (like sleeping in the other bedroom) DOES get a response from him but it's not good. If I give him something he wants, he tries to get more. If I tell him I need this relationship to be reciprocal, he tells me he doesn't know of anything he can do for me. If I tell him pointblank, "I need you to X", he doesn't do it. He "forgets."

I'm told I need to focus on the positives. H told me this recently, too. I can't find them. I've been searching the last 10 years of my memories. I asked him to help me find something to focus on. He can't tell me any either. He has lots of positive memories of things I've done for him. He can't think of anything he's done for me that I can focus on. But that's what I'm supposed to do?

I asked for a way to rephrase the email, since others see a lot of anger in my words. I don't see it. I'm too close. I would like to see it phrased differently.

I'm trying to focus again on SBT approaches. I posted an example of what I understand that to be in line with the rest of the advice given here. I would still appreciate some feedback on that. I'd hate to be going down the wrong path from the start.

I want to save my M, but I feel that desire slipping away. I don't know that I'll be able to wait 6 years either. And unfortunately, when I really do become the WAS, there will be no turning back.

[AJM]

I want to save my M, but I feel that desire slipping away. I don't know that I'll be able to wait 6 years either. And unfortunately, when I really do become the WAS, there will be no turning back.

Do you? I mean really really? I'm asking about your resolve here. Only one chance to make it work? That's a lot of pressure, don't you think?

I read your post. I almost didn't respond, CV. I'm frustrated

But I honestly do believe you want to change things in your marriage and that you are honestly asking for assistance. I applaud that, and well, it makes it hard to stay away.

I didn't see your request to re-word the email. But here's a stab at it from my perspective:

CV: My question about the urgency is that you seem frantic to do something to fix FIL and MIL's relationship (as if you have that power,) but rather indifferent to our issues that have been going on for years. I don't get that. Is it because you figure you have 6 years so there's no rush? From the outside looking in, it appears that you are more concerned about their marriage than you are your own. You blow off my suggestion to wait and do it in person because you feel like you need to do something right away even if it's in email or by phone. THAT'S a sense of urgency. With me, it's "I've got a counseling session next Tuesday..".... as you go back to shopping craigslist or looking at joke emails from Conrad, etc.

Put another way:

You seem so interested in your IL's marriage, but to me it feels like you are not as interested in us. I don't get that. I feel like you are not taking my opinion into account and doing things in person with IL's. You could make me feel like you at least considered my opinion by saying "x" That would help me feel like you respect my opinion. Would you do that for me please?

Do you see how there is far less confrontational wording? Does it still get your point across without attacking?

I'm told I'm supposed to change me and my actions, but not to do it expecting a response from H

I see the frustration, but look at it this way. You'll be doing that if you leave. If you two can't figure it out, then you may as well learn how to do this now. The idea is to be the change you want to see in others. In this case, your H is the first one you practice with. Since he's closest.

I'm told I need to focus on the positives. H told me this recently, too. I can't find them. I've been searching the last 10 years of my memories. I asked him to help me find something to focus on. He can't tell me any either. He has lots of positive memories of things I've done for him. He can't think of anything he's done for me that I can focus on. But that's what I'm supposed to do?

That could be because he has never done anything nice for you and you're a saint/martyr for putting up with this for this many years. You must be an incredible person to have endured for so long (there may be a little sarcasm there although you may not be able to hear it in my typing
It could also be because it's not his place to remember things for you like that and so he is not able to help in a way you can understand. How would anyone know what you find positive over the last ten years??? How many husbands remember the last 10 minutes like you are asking. Not many people are looking at their last 10 years under a microscope like you are right now.
Have you always done that? Each year you put your life and relationships under a microscope looking for particular query items?

I for one, find it incredibly disturbing that you cannot, alone, find positives in your relationship going back for 10 years or more. If this is something you have always done, then maybe you are different than everyone else. Let me know though please.

I want to save my M, but I feel that desire slipping away. I don't know that I'll be able to wait 6 years either. And unfortunately, when I really do become the WAS, there will be no turning back.

When? What do YOU call what you're doing now?!? Does a clock magically start ticking later when you physically are where you've gone emotionally?

For the sake of argument, what makes you think he'll take you back if you did change your mind? What makes you think he couldn't get the same or better elsewhere?

Conversely, what makes you think he wants to find somebody else? You already know he loves you deeply, flaws and all. His flaws included. Otherwise, he would have left. Heck, he could just over the part that you cannot find a single positive aspect of your relationship for over 10 years...That says he's been living with a roommate for a very long time. Somebody who wasn't authentic. Somebody who didn't love him. A sado-masochist in the making. Somebody who did nice things for him, bore his child, told him what he wanted to hear, but lied the entire time else got something else out of the relationship that is far darker than what was expected. Knowing what I know about relationships and how my ex was, I wouldn't let you stay another day if that were me in his shoes. I'd kick you to the curb so fast your head would spin and your rear end would have to play catch up.

But that's me. That's somebody who has learned how to handle such a thing differently than I would have (or did). Somebody who is not in love with who you say you are or truly are.

Easy talking. Your H is not me. He hasn't seen nor lived what I've lived with in this regard (for all I know he has). He hasn't been dating crazy women for the past few years. Watching the games, the mindset, the craziness. (note that both men and women are nutz in the dating world - some take longer to show it than others).

Your H still loves you and cares about YOU. But make no mistake, he's bleeding from the wounds as much or more than you are. You are in this together and you'll suffer or be happy together.

I think you need to stop and figure out why can't think of anything positive for the past 10 years with regards to your husband. I think you can drop the rest of the items until you understand why you can't find them. And why you went 10 years without having any. And why that seems normal to you.

My $0.04 worth.

I do honestly wish you the best CV. I'm a bit worried by what I read but I do care.

Peace,
AJ

[Crazyville]

AJ, you keep coming back. Maybe you're a little masochistic yourself. We're both a mess, I think.

Thanks for the rewording. It is less confrontational, I think. It isn't making my intended point however, but that's probably irrelevant. The first sentence you wrote "You seem so interested in your IL's marriage, but to me it feels like you are not as interested in us," which is actually my point, still seems confrontational and attacking.

I'm told I'm supposed to change me and my actions, but not to do it expecting a response from H

I see the frustration, but look at it this way. You'll be doing that if you leave.

Doing what? Sleeping in the other bedroom? And that somehow relates to "being the change I want to see in others?" I just don't get this point, at all.

Have you always done that? Each year you put your life and relationships under a microscope looking for particular query items?

No, I don't. And, yes, even I could read the sarcasm. As I said, I was told to FOCUS ON THE POSITIVES. I'm trying to find them. Have you heard the phrase, "People won't necessarily remember what you did for them, but they'll always remember how you made them feel."? I definitely remember how H made me feel. I'm trying to find events to counter that. Otherwise, what would it look like instead for me to "focus on the positives?"

When? What do YOU call what you're doing now?!? Does a clock magically start ticking later when you physically are where you've gone emotionally?

AJ, I've always referred to myself as the WAS. I'm not sure what your contest is. The difference will be when I stop even thinking about the R, move out, and file for D.

For the sake of argument, what makes you think he'll take you back if you did change your mind? What makes you think he couldn't get the same or better elsewhere?

I don't look at it as "better" or "worse." I'm certain he could find someone more compatible.

That says he's been living with a roommate for a very long time. Somebody who wasn't authentic. Somebody who didn't love him.

You're making this much more dramatic than it is. I'm simply tired of the R being all about him. The last 10 years haven't been masochistic, it's been poor self-esteem on my part. It's taken me a lot of years to rebuild my self-esteem, and I'm holding firm for a "reciprocal M or else."

I think you can drop the rest of the items until you understand why you can't find them. And why you went 10 years without having any. And why that seems normal to you.

It doesn't seem normal to me. It's why I need a change before I go back in.

Your H still loves you and cares about YOU. But make no mistake, he's bleeding from the wounds as much or more than you are.

I want to believe you on this, but I just don't know. I follow Adinva's thread because she reminds me so much of my H. I can see her pain in her words, but I don't see it in her daily life. And she writes regularly about filling her life with activities so she doesn't feel the pain. H does the same thing, always on the go, doing things, socializing, while I have a difficult time even getting out of bed. I asked him last night if he had thought anymore about what I said earlier. He responded that yes, he had, and do I mind if he turns on the TV (I was doing homework.) Is that pain, really? This is where the logic of the WAS spouse comes from, thinking the LBS will be fine or perhaps better off without them.

[~ kd ~]

CV, just so you know, when I said I can't help you, it is because... as AJ put it regarding your request that your H remind you of his positives... it's not my place.

If your H told you about the positive things he'd done for you, be honest here... you would probably find the negatives in what he THOUGHT were positives. He's learned not to do that, because that's possibly your current response, so he won't offer anything.

And besides, it's not his job. You... will have to dig for what ever positives there were in your M. That... is the work... and it's not easy, especially because you are too close to it all and very frustrated.

I can not tell you what to do and as I've observed, many, many suggestions... simply as POSSIBLE things you could try... you generally give reasons why you can not or will not. So at this point, there's possibly no suggestion anyone can give you that you are prepared to follow through on. Again... you... figuring out what to do... is the work... and it's hard...

SBT is Solutions oriented Brief Therapy. ie. It has nothing to do with the past, everything to do with clarifying the problem. Breaking it down as necessary to manageable chunks that can have actions applied that may or may not create positive change.

And then...

Do...

Observe...

Adjust (based on results, which generally we suggest you need at least two weeks of action to see if there is any real, consistent, change)...

and then...

Repeat...

You are stuck because you discount everything (and I'm generalizing here, no harm intended) that is offered to you or that you think of.

Stop discounting before you even try.

Just do... something... anything... even if you think it will fail... even if you think it is rediculous or crazy...

If you can not think of things that might work and create positive change, then at least do something... consistently for at least a two week period... to see if it will validate your belief that it will fail. You may be surprised that a lot of things you think won't work, DO create change.

And in all fairness, stuck is stuck. So you want change, no matter whether positive OR negative, because it puts the sitch into a different context and may help you see clearer or at least help you see how you can move forward.

That is the work. It's pretty simple and very logical, even if it seems futile. SBT changes things. And that's what you need.

[mamabird]

I have to say, CV, although I empathize deeply with your frustration, that KD really has a point. I do agree that you tend to shoot down the suggestions that AJ and KD are giving you.

But, at the end of the day - you're here. So that means, in some way, you are working on this M. Are you up to the challenge - can you put aside your frustration for one day, and then another, and then another - and make one small change that might bear fruit?

Or - it's entirely possible that you really are done and that nothing will bring about the change you need, but then the question is - is it really worth waiting/suffering for 6 more years?

[Crazyville]

Okay, then let me try. Give me one specific challenge. Not vague, not like change my perspective, because I don't know what that means or how to do it. Something specific, like put my left shoe on first in the mornings. Something that I can say that Wednesday morning at x:00 a.m., I did it, and the day after, and the day after... (And not something sexual/physical, please, I'm not there right now.)