WAS vs. LBS

[Crazyville]

Meanwhile, I'd love some feedback please. This was an email exchange I just had with H, in regards to some issues MIL is having with FIL and his aging/failing health/mental capacities. Since my focus at this point is primarily figuring out how to interact in a healthy way, I'm trying to determine what went wrong here, or if it's just me and it actually makes sense to everyone else.

CV: My question about the urgency is that you seem frantic to do something to fix FIL and MIL's relationship (as if you have that power,) but rather indifferent to our issues that have been going on for years. I don't get that. Is it because you figure you have 6 years so there's no rush? From the outside looking in, it appears that you are more concerned about their marriage than you are your own. You blow off my suggestion to wait and do it in person because you feel like you need to do something right away even if it's in email or by phone. THAT'S a sense of urgency. With me, it's "I've got a counseling session next Tuesday..".... as you go back to shopping craigslist or looking at joke emails from Conrad, etc.

H: I feel like I do sense urgency. In fact, I struggle with the “6 years” as in, why wait if that’s the plan? Yes, S12 is a concern, but his witnessing our conflict is just as wrong. Counseling cost$ that is well worth it. Yet, if I’m trying to underwrite our finances, I can’t be spending $ on even counseling, I feel. We have got to learn how to communicate effectively, more harmoniously. We have that opportunity, and can teach S12 if we do it right.

Other than the initial "I feel like I do sense urgency," I'm not relating his responses to anything I said. I even asked him to reread my paragraph and respond again, so he did and just cut-and-pasted the same paragraph. Enter the "crazy-making" for me. Am I the only one that sees this communication as disjunct?

[AJM]

Okay so I can begin to understand that but,... What if the constant lying is stepping on an important boundary to me? I need honesty in a relationship to be able to trust that person. Without trust, is a relationship not already doomed?

I never, not once, suggested not defending a boundary. Nor will I. I think boundaries *can* be helpful and healthy.
Searching back...I'm wondering if we're talking the same language. She used the term "lying" but also said that's a gray area (my interpretation; use it how you will). CV mentions that his response is not "lying" but is not completely accurate as CV knows accuracy to be. Therefore, it must be lying.

Am I paraphrasing that correctly?

I think CV also mentioned he said he would do something and then didn't. We discussed ADD after that.

If I've missed something, please - let me know and correct me.

So how can I fully accept someone for who they are, lying included but at the same time, protect my boundary of being lied to?

Let's agree to the term lying first, shall we. I don't feel like we did earlier in the thread. I think "lying" was bandied about, but some of the instances may have been different than black and white lying. Potato/potahtoe

Your boundary is your boundary. Plainly. His boundary is his. Figuring out how to deal with each other's boundaries is part of life. We always have to figure that stuff out with each new person we meet and each day with those we feel we know.

Knowing and communicating your boundary in a way the other can understand (not what you understand - what they understand) is your responsibility as it is theirs in return.

Make sense?

AJ

[AJM]

You may not be, but I don't see that as "disjunct"

What seems confusing about it?

I see a LOT of anger and resentment in your post. I don't see nearly as much in his response. I see him admitting that he doesn't see a reason to wait for you to leave if that's your plan anyway. i.e. if your mind is made up. He sees it as a problem for your son to see that kind of interaction as "healthy" when you all know it is not (his perspective). He is not indifferent in the least. He is frustrated though. He realizes he is not able to communicate with you but doesn't seem to know why.

Would it help to put that in ascii? Or Cantonese?

Maybe I'm nutz though

AJ

[Crazyville]

AJ, SS is asking because SHE has issues with her H lying. Perhaps it would just be easier to assume that the lying is a globally accepted definition of lying, so as to not confuse the advice given her with a sidebar debate.

As to my email with H, I wasn't angry at all when I wrote that to him. Perhaps you're reading into it because you know my sitch. Perhaps it's just my communication style. I realize it's out of context. I'm still not angry about it, though, really just rather matter-of-fact.

I was trying to point out how I interpret his behavior. I've highlighted the consistent theme throughout and the direct statement of how it appears to me.

My question about the urgency is that you seem frantic to do something to fix FIL and MIL's relationship (as if you have that power,) but rather indifferent to our issues that have been going on for years. I don't get that. Is it because you figure you have 6 years so there's no rush? From the outside looking in, it appears that you are more concerned about their marriage than you are your own. You blow off my suggestion to wait and do it in person because you feel like you need to do something right away even if it's in email or by phone. THAT'S a sense of urgency. With me, it's "I've got a counseling session next Tuesday..".... as you go back to shopping craigslist or looking at joke emails from Conrad, etc.

What does that have to do with S12? Or anything else you pulled from his response? How is does his response take into consideration anything that I said other than "I feel like I do sense urgency"? That's the disjunct I'm seeing. It's the equivalent of "Do you have a favorite color?" "Yes, the number fourteen!"

[Crazyville]

I'm trying to focus on some SBT. How's this?

Problem: I believe that H will occasionally lie to me for his own benefit.
Solution: Accept that lying is a common human trait, and that not everyone looks at lying the same way I do. It’s not a big deal as long as I don’t expect him to be honest. Instead, put little intrinsic value on anything H says and personally validate those things that are important to me.

[Crazyville]

And, could you give me a better phrasing of my points in my email? (since you interpreted my words as angry)

[AJM]

Here's the thing, CV. I see anger in your post. I assume you didn't "feel" angry when you wrote it. But I see it just the same, and not because of knowing the other information about your situation. I took it at face value.

I think to put a finer point on it, I saw something different than you intended. I attempted (with poor humor admittedly) to illustrate that.

I'm not suggesting that it's not a boundary you, or anyone else set that being lied to is not acceptable. Far from it. I'm pointing out a different perspective on that and your letter to your H you may not have seen or considered.

I am not trying to offend. If I have, I deeply apologize for coming across that way.

What is SBT? For my benefit.

SS: I may have missed something in your posts. If so, I apologize. I am in no way saying that lying is acceptable. But I am one who asks "why lie?" Not in the sense of why do you do it, but in the sense of why do you feel you need to do it? And is it a lie with intention to mislead, or is it something else that leads to that? I think those questions are important and the answers are equally important because they not only shed light on the persons motivations but also on ourselves and why people feel they should lie to us.

Make sense?

AJ

[Soul.Searching]

AJ, I know you never said anything about not protecting a boundary, I never said you did. I don't think I implied that either. Maybe I'm wrong but I though CV said that her H lies, although not always a straight out lie. That's beside the point though. My question was regarding an actual lie.

I find a lot of wisdom in this thread. It was more of a generalized
question. If you take in to account the perceptions of what a lie is without actually lying, then that is a whole new discussion.

My question was more of a generalized question regarding out right lying. I find a lot of wisdom in what you say. The question was not directed to your posts as a whole. It was directed at the part I quoted. I find it insightful but whated your view on the question. It was not meant to "Challenge" anything you have said. It was simply me asking for your perception to my q
question.

My question was more so regarding me personally. That's why I worded it using me as an example.
I could be wrong but I'm thinking that this is also what CV has been trying to ask.
I used lying as an example but I think CV is asking the same questions. Not only with lying but also other examples. Eg money. This is an example as I can not speak for CV. But let's just say,.., CV needs the bank account to increase, rather than decrease. She needs to feel financially stable for the futcure. Say CVs H spends constantly on himself.
I'm asking your your opinion on how to try to reach a compromise or is this something she either needs to accept or move on.


I hope this makes some sort of sense. My head is just spinning right now.

I can see now, the problem with this thread. Your looking at the grey areas where as I think CV is looking at the black and white.

I was looking at it as though a lie is a lie.

I think maybe you could be a little more detailed with your examples in order to help CV.

To me a lie is a lie. I don't see how you can change your perspective on that.
If its not an actual lie but rather not a whole truth, then I can, no actually I can't really see how to change your perception on that either.
Is hiding the truth, not just as bad?

Okay I think I need to reply later on my PC cause this phone makes it harder. I think I have just written a whole load of dribble, I'm going to post it anyway.

[Soul.Searching]

AJ you just posted while I was posting that. Okay, maybe I shouldn't have used lying as an example. My H tried to say that I made him lie to me but I know that's not true. At least not to the extent he tries to say. He lies over the pettiest of things and I have seen/ heard him do it to pretty much all of our family and friends over the years. It could be as simple as saying he just woke up, when yet he had been up for hours. My question was probably not the best question to post in CVs thread.

CV, from the Emails it seems to me that your H is just as lost as you are as to how to repair your R. It seems like he does not think C will work and he just does not know what will. I think he does see it as urgent but has no idea how to begin to fix things.

[AJM]

Hi SS. I think I see a little clearer than before.

I'm asking your your opinion on how to try to reach a compromise or is this something she either needs to accept or move on.

Compromise is exactly what I'm suggesting. I think we disagree as to what that may be, although I can say I don't know what is acceptable compromise for CV and her H - that's for them to figure out. I think (and I'm guessing here) CV feels like she has tried to find that compromise, failed, and is giving up. As I alluded to before, I don't understand that concept in my own life, but I understand the mechanics if that makes sense. Is it a question of accepting OR moving on? I don't see it like that. I see it as trying until you find a compromise.

CV wants change. Very much. I get that. I suspect her H does to even if he doesn't know what that looks like.

My H tried to say that I made him lie to me but I know that's not true. At least not to the extent he tries to say. He lies over the pettiest of things and I have seen/ heard him do it to pretty much all of our family and friends over the years. It could be as simple as saying he just woke up, when yet he had been up for hours. My question was probably not the best question to post in CVs thread.

Can you expand on the part about "...at least not to the extent he tries to say." ? I'm curious about that part.

My philosophy is that we all interact with one another. We act and react. Constantly. I would venture to say that CV's husband doesn't know to the extent his actions have impacted CV. Conversely, she may not see how her actions influence and impact him. I would say that the same is likely true to some extent in your relationship. Not saying his reaction is correct or even about you, but it would be next to impossible for you to act/react without having an impact on H. And vice-versa. You're in it together. You dance together. One moves left, and so does the other.

Why does your H feel the need to lie about such things? I dunno. That's something for him to say. Why does he feel like you have a part in it? Or least say he does? I dunno, but I suspect there would be at least a small amount of truth in that. I doubt you would be human if there wasn't.

Allow me to go back to my marriage as an example. I had an impact on my spouse over the years. Did I do what she accused me of? There was "some" truth in it. At some point, when things fell apart for her, did she "feel" like those were the reasons she *had* to leave? And then why she was and has been so angry towards me? I would guess so. Is that why she "felt" like she had to re-remember her past with me and walk out on the kids and me on mother's day? I would guess so. Does that mean I had no part in it? Of course I did. My actions had an impact. There was and is much more to it, but I'm simplifying in this case to illustrate.

We all have an impact, SS. We all have a part in what's going on even if we don't want to see it. We have anger and resentment, ofen even if we "feel" we don't. Others will pick up on it even if it's not forefront in our minds and thoughts. It can still be seen, and especially by those that are already sensitive about it. Or who have gone through it with others

It's why I picked up on CV's email as having anger and resentment. I can feel it in the words.

Does your H feel anger and resentment from you? Do you know if he does and why? Does he feel he "needs" to lie because of your impact or maybe for some other reason even if you don't see the need? Is it possible?

Nobody's perfect, SS. Nobody. We change over the years. Experience and "life" teach us various things. We use our own experience to help us make sense of it. What we consider "normal" is not "normal" to somebody else. We all have shortcomings and we all have to be honest at some point and work to address those shortcomings. We do that in different ways. We develop "crutches" or ways to deal with pain and what other people's impacts are to us. We rationalize them according to our "norm".

Sometimes, our "norm" doesn't work for us. We find that out the hard way in many cases. What we "thought" was, isn't. What we did to compensate for those "norms" has to change. So we change. Sometimes unwillingly and with much pain and angst. Kicking and screaming.

We are imperfect. Our spouses are there in part, to help us become the best we can. That's both directions because we are all imperfect. Frustrations and all...

Make more sense? If not, let me know. I truly only want to help. If I'm not helping, let me know that too. I can give back the money paid and stop

AJ