WAS vs. LBS

[Crazyville]

SS, RLA, AJ, and KD, thanks for your posts. I haven't been ignoring you, just been out of town visiting H's family. I appreciate everyone's thoughts, even amongst yourselves.

I didn't notice that anyone answered Soul.Searching's question, though. I'm sure she and I would both appreciate a few comments on that. Her question was "are you saying that CV needs to change her perspective on the big things? Eg lying,.. Not getting anything back etc?"

RLA, though I whole-heartedly agree with your suggestion in general, my saying to H, "I want us to talk" is the absolute worst thing I can do with him. I know there are stereotypical-type jokes about "what are the four most terrifying words a man can ever hear", to which the punchline is "We need to talk." For H, it's actually true (perhaps more annoying than terrifying.) Thus the elephant in the room, with which he seems perfectly comfortable. Personally, I don't have a clue how to address our issues without talking out agreeable solutions. H, on the other hand, does the "not really addressing it and putting band aids on, making (him)self feel better but damaging the relationship at the same time," that you said you did. (FYI, I did attempt to talk to him in the 6-hour drive north, but after a while, he reached over and turned the radio loud so he couldn't hear me.)

KD, my general thoughts are a little less self-centered than "what's in it for me." Mine is more in line with, "Why would I (or not)?" or "Why should I (or not)?" For example, on the way to and from S12's school everyday, I notice a gas station on the corner that really needs some landscape work. If I had absolutely nothing else going on in life, I could be perfectly content investing 4-5 hours pulling weeds and pruning bushes. It's actually something I enjoy doing. So why wouldn't I do that? Basic economics. There is limited time and resources in life. I have to give up some other option for that time/energy in order to do that. Besides, I could do the same thing at the entrance of our subdivision. Or for the widow across the street. All of these things are nixxed because I choose to spend that time instead helping S12 with his homework. Frankly, I would rather do the yard work than tutor 7th grade math, so if I were doing things based on "What's in it for me," I would do the yard work because I enjoy it.

Does the gas station operator or the subdivision or the widow across the street NOT deserve my best? Of course not. But they are in actuality going to get nothing from me. Not my best, not my worst, nothing. Because I personally value my S12 more. I want to do it for him, not because I enjoy it or because I get some sort of payback. It is internally driven. The same reason I choose not to lie, because of an internal mechanism.

All we can do is live for us. We all know we can't control what our spouses do. So we do our best every day, and we do it for ourselves, not for anyone else

So, if my choices at 9:00 at night are: a.)play a game with S12, b.)do a couple miles on the treadmill, c.)take the dog for a walk, d.)do some laundry, e.)call my mother, f.)put up the Christmas decorations, g.)study for finals, h.)go through the mail and pay the bills, i.)go to bed and get some much-needed sleep, etc., etc., etc, ..... or z.)send S12 to bed so I can service H sexually, why in the world would I ever choose z? It is definitely not what I want to do.

[Soul.Searching]

I haven't got much time to post right now so I'll try to be quick.
I think AJ did kind of answer my question.

Either way, you're longing for change and not getting it, but possibly going about it the wrong way.

We do have a responsibility to live for us. Part of that is our integrity in living our life. My belief is that we if we make a promise, we keep it. That's for me, because I like that about me. I like knowing that I don't walk away from my promises and my integrity is intact. But that's living for me the way I want to live. I don't control others and never have nor wanted to. I accept them as they are and set my boundaries for how I'll interact with others.

Many times I've been surprised by others because of this. When I've written off somebody for their actions, they have surprised me with their changes. Looking back, much of what I saw was a point in time (sometimes many points in time) where they acted a certain way. But they grew and my perspective changed. Or both



Peace,
AJ

So what I'm getting from this, is that (Using me as an example) I'm honest, trustworthy and faithful. I value my morals and I think I generally have great morals.
So say for example my H continually lies to me, I don't go looking to expose his lies but he is a crappy lier who continually "tells on himself" by not being able to keep up with the lies.
So basically, I Need to realize that he has different morals and beliefs than me and accept him fully, for who he is? Just because I value my honesty and integrity does not mean that I should expect him to have the same morals and beliefs?
I should just truly accept him for who he is? Lying and all? It kinda comes down the the whole control thing, I guess?

Okay so I can begin to understand that but,... What if the constant lying is stepping on an important boundary to me? I need honesty in a relationship to be able to trust that person. Without trust, is a relationship not already doomed?

So how can I fully accept someone for who they are, lying included but at the same time, protect my boundary of being lied to?

I feel in order to be true to myself, I need an honest partner. So is it a matter of ignoring my authentic self and just accept being lied to?
I just don't see how to be able to be authentic to myself, protect my boundary and accept someone fully who lies.

I get the whole acceptance and control stuff but I'm really stuck as to how to change my perception to be able to accept that from a partner.
Yes I could just accept it and push it under the rug but that would be jeperdising my authentic self.

[Crazyville]

^^^^ Well said, SS.

[~ kd ~]

KD, my general thoughts are a little less self-centered than "what's in it for me."

Actually, I don't think so. Here's why:\

I choose to spend that time instead helping S12 with his homework.

Yes, I know you followed that by saying you would rather do the yard work. The reality is, you are NOT doing the yard work. So... You are getting more value by tutoring your S.

Let me repeat that:

You get more value tutoring your S. What is in THAT for YOU is whatever that might be. In your case, you are suggesting it's "economic", not enough time, etc... THAT is what is in it, for you.

I doubt that, though. I suspect you tutor your S because you enjoy spending time with your S, even while you THINK it's because you can't afford a tutor. AND... I'm sure you could provide validation toward that end...

Here's the thing... some people would not tutor their child OR pay a tutor. They would put that responsibility on the school or on the child.

So...

You choose to tutor your son...

Because THAT (what ever "that" is) is what is in it, for you...

BTW, you mentioned in RLA's post a warning that RLA should be careful not to ignore her H's thoughts, or however you said that, suggesting that your H does that to you and you wish he would show you that he was paying attention.

Since I know that you will tell me that you HAVE told him to pay attention and it did no good, so you won't do it again, even to my pleading that perhaps you did not tell him in a way he understood...

I would simply state, it's likely you did not let him know that it was important to you that he indicates your concerns are important to you... in a way that he truly understood the urgency.

And on that note, regarding your interest in an answer to SS's question about what to do when someone chronically lies and their morals are polar opposite of one's own...

Really?

My answer is fairly simple.

Leave.

[Crazyville]

That sounds like the episode of Friends where Phoebe was trying to convince Joey that there was no such thing as a selfless good deed, that everything had personal payoff and therefore wasn't really selfless. It was hilarious. I couldn't do it justice in the context of whether I'm really tutoring S12 for me or not, so let's just agree to disagree on that.

I appreciate your answer to the moral differences. It's pretty much the reason behind my 6yr plan as well, but I'm always willing to consider something else. To your suggestion that I didn't tell H in a manner that he understood, what does that have to do with my need to change my perspective and stop expecting H to do anything different?

[~ kd ~]

There is selfless and there is unconditional.

The two are not the same.

There is nothing selfless.

Unconditional is a totally different animal.

In the same way as perspective and attitude.

CV, one thing is clear, which is that you are better with logic than abstract. And, you learn best through personal experience.

To that, I can only say, it will make sense to you when you experience the differences of selfless/unconditional and perspective/attitude.

Again, not a judgement, just a personal observation and opinion. Neither good nor bad.

I remain in complete understanding of the dilemma you find yourself in and understand why you wish to wait 6 years before you bail and hope... that maybe... just maybe... your H will become a better person before you actually have to make a choice to leave...

[Crazyville]

You are right in your evaluation of my learning style. Perhaps that, in conjunction with the fact that I came to this site to get help with interpersonal skills rather than philosophical/zen/meaning of life sort of discussions, is why I'm having such difficulty with this. I'm just not seeing this theme on any other threads. Rather, I understand the problems, I understand the advice, I see the growth and changes. I didn't think my issues/problems were so unearthly that they required some super-human/out-of-body sort of approach. I'm glad it's helping some, but it's lost on me. Sorry.

I just want to figure out a way to interact with my H, whether for 6 years until I leave, or for life if that's possible. I don't need a fairytale, just a peaceful co-existence.

[~ kd ~]

CV, no one here finds it easy. I know you understand that. I suspect that what you don't understand is that the LBS who are here are having the same challenge you are, for the same reasons.

It's not that SBT isn't "simple". It's a matter of wrapping our heads around doing things that just don't seem "logical".

Like you, many have to let go the logical, and just do the work. Dropping the expectations is key.

You are stuck in expectations. You are stuck in deservedness.

When a person is stuck in these ways, "doing the work" appears impossible to them.

You have received support for the work and you continue to discount the work. Looking for answers in places where there is, at least right now, no answers. It's frustrating, I know.

It's possible that the only way you will really understand is to move on, yet its obvious that you are afraid to do that. Again, picking grabbing reasons why you won't move on, in the same why you are grabbing reasons why you won't or can't do the work that just might save your M.

Your own sense of urgency is too low. It's not enough for you to step up and just do something, even though you don't know what the outcome might be. Again, reasons get in the way. SBT is about doing things with full acceptance, without expectations.

Urgency is not desperation. Urgency simply means you are willing to do what it takes.

You are here, and that is great. Many people would do well to pick up and read MWD's books BEFORE they end up in the situation that many find themselves in, when they first do, or register here.

In the same way as you, though. Many would never feel the urgency to act on the tools provided by MWD and SBT until it's likely too late. Because... like you... it's too "unearthly" and requiring some "super-human" approach.

I understand how you feel. And that's why I continue to suggest... you just aren't ready, yet. Until the value becomes more important than the reasons not to.

And that's OK if you never find the value to do so. It remains neither good nor bad. Just the path that you will follow.

Stay well.

[Crazyville]

Okay, KD, doing what work?

[Crazyville]

To rephrase, SBT (solution-based therapy) implies a solution. What work for what solution?