If it's one thing I've learned it is that men & women think differently in R problems. It still amazes me how a couple can ever come together to make things work! But it can be done! 25yearsmic's M was saved, my M was saved, and others here on the board. I believe the main thing we could tell you is that it did not happen quickly.
A couple of things I've seen is whenever there is OM involved, the H wants to hear up front that his W is through with the A. He has that right, and the M won't work until the W ends the A. But the point I'm making is the H seems as if he is paralyzed until he hears that committment from her. Other H's want to hear the W say that she is willing to work on the M before he can do the work. In your case, you need to hear her say she forgives you. Nothing is wrong with any of that, but it just doesn't always work that way b/c women don't approach the situation the same as men.
I think you must get your own emotions under control, or you could have a heat attack. The way you described how you physically reacted at the last meeting sounded pretty serious. If you have to get medical help or whatever, you won't be able to deal with the M problems until you have a handle on yourself. You are allowing fear to be in control. You will lose if you don't beat it.
I have had a lot to say in other threads about forgiveness. I know what it is to be the forgiven......and to be the forgiven. I had years of resentment that I had to let go b/c of w hat it was doing to me. The ones that caused so much pain in my life may not have deserved it and sure never asked me to forgive them.........not even my H. I think it would have helped, but it didn't happen. The decision was mine to make. I wanted to be able to move forward.
Forgiveness is a choice from our free will. Our problem is usually the feelings don't just disappear b/c we decide to forgive. Our decision can be made in a moment, but it takes time to heal the wound. The more serious the wound, the longer time for healing. However, the main ingredient is to want to be healed. No progress will be made if there is no desire to get over the hurt.
A person has to let go of the anger before they can even get to the point of deciding to forgive. Only your W will know when she's there. What can you do to help her get there? First, you can tell her that you see how badly you treated her, how you failed as a H and how wrong you were to encourage bad treatment from the kids. It may help if you name the things you did, instead of just trying to lump it altogether. She knows what they were, but if she hears you say it.....and show true remorse, then it could help her to at least get to the point of "thinking" about forgiving you.
Get it all out there and bare you soul. You tell her you know you will never deserve her forgiveness but you want her to know how horrible you feel over years of bad behavior. Tell her you take responsibility for the breakdown of the M. (And if you really want her back, you'll take all of it...and mean it.)
After you lay youself out there, you leave her alone. No begging or lingering on to see if she will or won't forgive you. She may need to process all that you've said. You can't press her. If she is ever able to let go and forgive, you will be a most blessed man!
If you have not told your children how wrong you were to influence their treatment of their mother, then you need to set them down together and tell them. Do it before you even attempt to talk to her. If they are adults, then they have to decide what they will do, however, you can make sure any bad behavior will not be acceptable or tolerated when you are around and in the presence of their mother.
And by the way, if you do this with your kids and with her, do not allow any discussion about her behavior. This is about you and what you've done. It is not the time to bring up her sins or what all she needs to do in order for the M to work. This isn't a R talk. It is all about you telling your W and your kids what you've done wrong......and pray that she has what it takes to forgive.
After the talk, you don't bring it up anymore? You don't ask her if she has reached a decision. You leave it alone. It is up to her and she can't be pressured, guilted, or preached to.
You will never know if you don't do it. It isn't easy! But you have nothing more that you can lose and everything to gain. Please don't allow pride to stand in your way. It takes a real man to do this, and your W knows it. You can't change the past, but you can show her, your kids, and most of all yourself that you are no longer that person.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks, Sandi... Yes paralyzed by OM situation is what I feel. I think you are saying I don't have to be? Makes sense...one to tango.
I fear W is paralyzed in that she hasn't forgiven. Are you saying she's not, that progress can be made even before forgiveness?
I believe I have done the things you said, in writing (before reading DR) and in person, ie admitting to my wrong, taking responsibility, expressing sorrow. Short of the words "Will you please forgive me?" as I have been afraid she is not ready.
Is it time to ask?
If she says not yet, continue to validate, when she brings it up, right?
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
Sandi's post should be printed out and read by ALL of us weekly. Your situation is spot on for that post so read it again, please...and again, truly. Yes 3 times or more, DM, b/c it SO applies!
Originally Posted By: Dm45
Thanks, Sandi... Yes paralyzed by OM situation is what I feel. I think you are saying I don't have to be? Makes sense...one to tango.
YES it takes ONE to forgive and to let go, etc. NO MORE questions about him. Be realistic too...
she won't commit to you or the marriage if she's still struggling with OM anyhow. So your conditions precedent to YOU making the mandatory changes YOU need to make are useless and counter productive too.
I fear W is paralyzed in that she hasn't forgiven. Are you saying she's not, that progress can be made even before forgiveness?
it takes progress to GET to the forgiveness. And when I chose to forgive my h the first part was to turn my pain/anger over to God. I could not handle it.
Then on almost a daily (or hourly) basis I'd have to choose to forgive, again. I'd have to choose NOT to hold onto my anger, again.
I could not throw it in his face again, ever...and that took daily choices to forgive and let go, for a good YEAR...and then some
I believe I have done the things you said, in writing (before reading DR) and in person, ie admitting to my wrong, taking responsibility, expressing sorrow. Short of the words "Will you please forgive me?" as I have been afraid she is not ready. No she is NOT ready...Do NOT ask her to forgive you- but you can exopress the hope that SOMEDAY she might be able to BUT you must say it in a way that makes it clear you do not think you earned/deserve it.
(Even if you believe you do). And no, I do NOT believe you've taken responsibility for your role in it really
b/c you bring up HER choice about OM
EVERY SINGLE TIME you mention your failings. You are a score keeper
and you need to lose the score card. Those things kill marriages...
Is it time to ask? . NO
If she says not yet, continue to validate, when she brings it up, right?
IF SHE brings it up...
You can say "forgiveness is a process...it's a learned skill"..."takes time and involves frequent choices and prayer"..."turning over", etc.
but if I were you, I'd tell her you KNOW you are not in a position to expect or ask for forgivness b/c you have a lot to prove to her...
your hope is that she'll give you that chance.
And as Sandi said, do NOT allow your children to dishonor their mother in your presence.
It irks me that you validated your son's "moral courage" when he condemned her.
That was not moral courage, it was a wounded ego and anger and punitive feelings. NOTHING loving about that.
See through it and your own self interest there...if YOU want a reconciliation
your son's judgmentalism won't help
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you 25, and Sandi for your last 2 posts. The tears are flowing. Sunday's are the hardest day for me in all this.
I'm not going to pull any quotes to respond to...its all right on target.
Another question: I have been making my best efforts at "looking strong" thus far when validating the hurt. Ie no tears, calm, etc.
I am not stereotypical man out of touch with my emotions, and we have cried together and comforted each other many times in our marriage, when things were better.
Stay strong? I am deeply sobbing as I type this. Does she see my "strength" as...not the real me? Does she think, "how could he sit there while I cry" as she thinks "How could he have let me work these ours and done this to us?"
I yearn to cry this out with her and comfort each other. Tell me to wait. Ok. Will it ever come?
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
If you allow the OM, the fear, or any part of the stitch to paralyze you, then you've lost the battle. You take charge of your life instead of being a victim. You do everything in your power to change yourself, and then pray for the rest. The only person you control is yoursel, but you can try to have a positive influence on your children.........and even others, but know the difference in control and influence.
If you have really poured out your heart and accepted responsibility for the M, then I would not suggest you ask her if she forgives you. We are talking about years of hurt building and I don't know if the average human being is cable of a one-swipe cleansing/forgiveness of that magnitude.....and it stiick. I'm not saying she isn't the exception, but i would doubt it. Even if she decides she "wants" to do it, the act of making it stick is often the challenge. I had to remind myself quite often that I chose to forgive my H. It's like 25yrs said, it's almost daily for quite some time. And especially if something that c aused that hurt rears it s head. It "is" a very important part of the progress of R the M. Forgiveness is much like honesty in the R.........you can be married without it, but not very successfully.
Is she paralyzed? I don't know. But she doesn't seem ready. I would suggest you don't push her in trying to get her to say she forgives you. The best thing you could do is show her you are changed. She won't want to be with you if past behaviors continue.
Is that making progress? You bet it is! Words are important, but actions are what really counts.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I ultimately think a woman wants to see strength in her H. This is es Ecia.ly true if there has been weakness has been often displayed to the point she has lost respect for him.
If you are feeling deep remorse for the pain you caused. I see that as being progress. You are asking if she should see you shed tears or a controlled expression. What has she seen in the past? What would be real?
Let me stress this point, okay? Don't use any emotion, or anything else, as an instrument to make her do what you want her to do. And I'm not suggesting that you are not legitimately torn up right now. But don't think that tears will work in your favor with her.......nor will they work against you. It's remorse you need to feel b/c that will help you truly change for a better man. It may have helped if she could have seen this sorrow as you told her how wrong you had treated her, but don't call her up right now!
I don't know if I answered your question. Don't be afraid to show tears, if they happen. But neither believe it would help your case, b/c just thinking it would lose it. I think there is a place, time, and reason for tears in men. The strongest man in my life was not afraid to show tears.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
If you are asking if you should call her now to talk this through.........don't. Just b/c you are feeling this right now does not mean the timing would be right for her.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Know what you mean about using the emotion as an instrument...but I know she knows how I can get when I really mean something. Not always, but...it happens.
As I think the show strength v. letting emotion show issue through some more: She/we have ALWAYS said that she is a person who avoids hurting people's feelings and conflict at all costs. It causes her pain to see people in pain.(which made her breakaway all the more shocking to me) While our M was getting worse, I see that as her sole "contribution" to the problem. She is really blameless, just her nature contributed to inefficient communication. And it enabled me to bully w/impunity.
That being said, I think seeing me in pain might cause her to withdraw, or stop talking R, taking away my opportunities to validate.
Thoughts?
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
