WAW seems to be making positive steps...whattodo?

[Dm45]

Click on her username and some options will appear. One of the options is "members posts". Select that and then go to her first post.

I'm not completely caught up on your sitch quite yet. I do see that you have received some great advice from some members who helped me. Hopefully you are utilizing their suggestions.

I found it, thanks.

I'm trying to do this. It's so hard.

[Dm45]

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhh...................

We met again. She seemed eager to meet. Had a pleasant lunch. Went for a donut & coffee for desert.

While we were drinking coffee she started R talk.

I had memorized steps to dealing w/resentment from turtle. (Mirror and validated several facets of a given resentment) She just spews them out so fast, all I can really do is validate each statement, not go in to detail on them.

Main resentment is still that I did not pick up financial slack when my business went downhill, and allowed her to work 2 jobs. Her real gripe is not the actual money amount but the hours worked.

Compounded by the fact that my treatment of her went bad as the business grew bad.

Our D17 and S16 learned this behavior and they don't treat her well now either. Now home is just not a good place for her. Our S20 had grown out of it, though he won't talk to her now.

She tried to make everyone happy while she suffered.

She stopped during all this and said "Every time we get together all I do is bash you."

I said "The more I hear it, and the more you believe I understand what I've done and regret it, the more you can get through resentment."

She started to talk about her fear today:
1. Fear that, as in the past, if the extra job I'm working goes dry, I'll put too much hope back into the failing business and earn very little $$. I actually share that fear. My plan is that if any job I hold doesn't work me for 2 days, I'm looking. 5 days, I take the 1st I can get.

I told her what I really want is to get out of the business and back to a career, perhaps IT where I used to be.

She asked what steps I'm taking in that direction...classes, applying to school etc. I said I am in financial "limbo,". She asked what I meant. I meant that I don't know if she will continue to support family. She said of course she will.

2. Fear that I will go back to my bullying ways. I validated that. Said that in the case of both fears, I don't want to go backward, but forward.

We are really "stuck" at the point of how to get to forgiveness and rebuild trust, on both sides. Hoping MC can eventually help with that.

Small talk for a while then as she was ready to leave
She said "we have made progress today" I asked how. She said I don't have to be in fear about her not helping financially.

I screwed up at this point, and said "I have other fears as well." she said "I have a lot to think about." me: "Like?" her: "Everything"

This was temp taking as at this point I was talking about her plans re:R,M,OM and ASSUME she was as well.

Lots of sighing, stonewalling at this point (from her) as I tried to ask without asking. Don't remember what I said...panicky.
My blood turned cold, lips started tingling, and I KNOW my face changed. I got up and went to restroom. Came back she was crying. Asked her what's the matter, she said "I feel the old angry H coming back" I said "that wasn't anger that's hurt." discussion turned back to fears at this point. Talked more about forgiveness and trust being what we need.

Backto small talk then goodbye.
Well I guess I am not detached. Definitely frustrated, though.

She agrees "this is what's needed" but doesn't commit. Maddening.

[labug]

Why would you expect her to commit so quickly? This has been going on for how many years?

How committed are you?

Drop your time line. I think this is good stuff, baby steps.

And she's given you a roadmap.

You can't talk you way out of something you've acted your way into.

[sandi2]

Do you understand why she resents the fact she worked two jobs while you were slack?

After my D got sick and the medical bills started to mount, I would leave my FT day job and head straight for my night job. I worked seven days a week trying to keep the bills paid. Not one time did my H try to assure me that we would make it........or tell me to stay home with the kids amd "he" would hold down two jobs. A need we women have is security. Most will follow their men into whatever business venture or employment he thinks is best for the family. She may even hold down more than one job.......but if he doesn't seem to be working at least as hard as she is for their family (when it is necessary to survive).....she'll more than likely have resentment. That is often one of those things she pushes down inside of her, instead of confronting him and working through it.

So, why did your blood suddenly run cold? That's a pretty serious statement when expressing emotions.

[Dm45]

Labug and sandi2,
Thanks for posting so quickly. I need need need to talk this out.

Why would you expect her to commit so quickly?

It is my curse. Just re-read section of DR where MWD said "To say you will need patience is a big big understatement...if you are a take charge person, you are about to learn one of the hardest lessons in your life..." p258

This has been going on for how many years?

5 since she went back PT, 4 FT, 2 1/2 w/2 jobs, back to one a week before the bomb. So gradually over 5 yrs.

How committed are you?

Completely

Drop your time line. I think this is good stuff, baby steps.

And she's given you a roadmap.

Thank you so much for that. I need encouragement so much.

Do you understand why she resents the fact she worked two jobs while you were slack?

Yes. I defaulted on my end of marriage covenant. No 2 ways about it. It wasnt fair. I have repeatedly expressed shame, regret, remorse.

She may even hold down more than one job.......but if he doesn't seem to be working at least as hard as she is for their family (when it is necessary to survive).....she'll more than likely have resentment. That is often one of those things she pushes down inside of her, instead of confronting him and working through it.

That pretty much describes us, I think. What is the "recipe" for healing and forgiveness? I know time is an ingredient. Anything more I need to do? I think I get that I need to repeatedly hear and validate. What else?

So, why did your blood suddenly run cold? That's a pretty serious statement when expressing emotions.

I am quite sure it was fear. Maybe panic attack. Got slightly short of breath, numb lips is a sign of low blood oxygen. I think I remember W asking what's wrong? That's when I shook my self and left for restroom. I am striving not to show her extreme emotional reactions.

My fear was that she was about to express commitment to OM, to say get D, etc.

However as I am typing this she is texting back and forth w/small talk. (she initiated)

Back to my previous question, though my belief is forgiveness has to be a gift, are there ingredients besides "time" to make it easier for her?

[25yearsmlc]

First,


THE NEED FOR SECURITY IS HUGE...

You let her down. Now you are telling her that YOU are in "financial limbo"...WHY do you tell her that? it's not her fault. And btw, it's NOT attractive either.

Sorry but I say shape up and show up.

Sexist as it MAY be, men are supposed to be able to provide... I can't believe you asked her if SHE could still support the family. Why would you expect it AND ask this of her? Be an adult and talk about finances "together" but of course, be contributing.

Express gratitude for how long SHE has provided for the family...and teach your kids better.

It's so ironic to me that you were not loving or kind or appreciative to her WHILE she slaved... AND finally, you taught the kids to be the same way to her.

OUCH...

So, tell me, what are YOU bringing to the table? If You are not a provider and the kids are old enough to not need a parent right there, AND you were not kind or loving to her,

well, that's a lot for you to improve upon. I cannot imagine her returning soon AND it working out

with such little time passing. I don't think you get what you put her through enough for real change.

The fact that you keep talking about YOUR anger makes me think that you are not ready to show change b/c it has not truly happened.

Please, Tell me what is different now.

How would marriage to you be better and different than before, for HER?

I don't want to hear about how mad THE KIDS are, when we know it's learned behavior YOU taught them.

I ache for her. I really hope you figure this out soon.

You have some work to do.

Labug and sandi2,
Thanks for posting so quickly. I need need need to talk this out.

Why would you expect her to commit so quickly?

It is my curse. Just re-read section of DR where MWD said "To say you will need patience is a big big understatement...if you are a take charge person, you are about to learn one of the hardest lessons in your life..." p258

This has been going on for how many years?

5 since she went back PT, 4 FT, 2 1/2 w/2 jobs, back to one a week before the bomb. So gradually over 5 yrs.

How committed are you?

Completely


What does that "Completely committed" comment mean? How are YOU BEHAVING differently? Financially speaking for you to whine to her or not have an extra job now,

to ME, means you are all show and no go.

Drop your time line. I think this is good stuff, baby steps.

And she's given you a roadmap.

Thank you so much for that. I need encouragement so much.


Yes she has given you a road map.


She cannot make it any clearer than she has. You are BLESSED to have the chance to make up to her for a lot...

SO DO IT.

Do you understand why she resents the fact she worked two jobs while you were slack?

Yes. I defaulted on my end of marriage covenant. No 2 ways about it. It wasnt fair. I have repeatedly expressed shame, regret, remorse.


But what have you DONE to demonstrate that you are a changed man?

Can we start with you NOT asking her to support the family anymore?

YOU should be reassuring HER, (as Sandi's post said. Her h never told her things would be alright and SHE had to bear it all....YES it builds resentment)

You ought to be taking on MORE responsibility, NOT telling her you Hope she keeps on providing for the family, and
You should be reassuring her, not the other way around.

I'm VERY concerned that you do not get this.

She may even hold down more than one job.......but if he doesn't seem to be working at least as hard as she is for their family (when it is necessary to survive).....she'll more than likely have resentment. That is often one of those things she pushes down inside of her, instead of confronting him and working through it.

That pretty much describes us, I think. What is the "recipe" for healing and forgiveness? I know time is an ingredient. Anything more I need to do? I think I get that I need to repeatedly hear and validate. What else?



What can You DO?

You can get a reliable job and better income...Get a job OR TWO, or whatever the family needs...and be KINDER to her at all times.

Hide the anger or better yet, lose it. It does NOT help you.


You can give her a break, that's what you can do. Make her life easier.

Promise and then follow through with some pleasant goals.

-- Got slightly short of breath, numb lips is a sign of low blood oxygen. I think I remember W asking what's wrong? That's when I shook my self and left for restroom. I am striving not to show her extreme emotional reactions.

My fear was that she was about to express commitment to OM, to say get D, etc.

However as I am typing this she is texting back and forth w/small talk. (she initiated)

Back to my previous question, though my belief is forgiveness has to be a gift, are there ingredients besides "time" to make it easier for her?

"Forgiveness is a gift"? That means what? Please explain.

And are you referring to the forgiveness you seek from HER, OR that you have not granted?

I believe Forgiveness is what WE do for ourselves and it's a gift we give ourselves.

It's not about the other person, or whether we think they "Deserve" it. They do not have even have to know we forgave them.

It's to help us let go of our pain and anger. IT's to free us.

IT's so that OUR LIVES are not dragged down by our reminding ourselves of our pain or our victimhood.

Forgiveness is a our declaration of independence.

Independent of what THEY do or did, and in charge of our own lives.

Holding onto anger to punish someone else,

is like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes.

Maybe when you "get this", you'll get a lot farther.

Model it for your kids and pray that your w will model it for them too, by her forgiving you.

Have you asked her to forgive you? NOT in a way that means she has to take you back,

but b/c you hurt her and let her down?

[25yearsmlc]

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhh...................

We met again. She seemed eager to meet. Had a pleasant lunch. Went for a donut & coffee for desert.

While we were drinking coffee she started R talk.

I had memorized steps to dealing w/resentment from turtle. (Mirror and validated several facets of a given resentment) She just spews them out so fast, all I can really do is validate each statement, not go in to detail on them.

Main resentment is still that I did not pick up financial slack when my business went downhill, and allowed her to work 2 jobs. Her real gripe is not the actual money amount but the hours worked.

Compounded by the fact that my treatment of her went bad as the business grew bad.

those are not small problems.

Our D17 and S16 learned this behavior and they don't treat her well now either. Now home is just not a good place for her. Our S20 had grown out of it, though he won't talk to her now.


That^^^^ is really NOT cool. It's compounding the wrongs done to your wife.

You need to do your best to Make this right. I'm so impressed that your wife seems open to making your r better, instead of her just writing you off.

I hope you are grateful to her for that.


She tried to make everyone happy while she suffered.

She stopped during all this and said "Every time we get together all I do is bash you."

I said "The more I hear it, and the more you believe I understand what I've done and regret it, the more you can get through resentment."

so then, all that is new and different about work and finances

is that you SAY you won't repeat the mistake

BUT you will stay in the losing business?? Why would this make her believe things can be better?

I don't get this.


She started to talk about her fear today:
1. Fear that, as in the past, if the extra job I'm working goes dry, I'll put too much hope back into the failing business and earn very little $$. I actually share that fear. My plan is that if any job I hold doesn't work me for 2 days, I'm looking. 5 days, I take the 1st I can get.

I told her what I really want is to get out of the business and back to a career, perhaps IT where I used to be.

She asked what steps I'm taking in that direction...classes, applying to school etc. I said I am in financial "limbo,". She asked what I meant. I meant that I don't know if she will continue to support family. She said of course she will.


Wow...so You've taken NO action to pursue it? Wow... it's still all about what SHE is doing for you and the family?


2. Fear that I will go back to my bullying ways. I validated that. Said that in the case of both fears, I don't want to go backward, but forward.

We are really "stuck" at the point of how to get to forgiveness and rebuild trust, on both sides. Hoping MC can eventually help with that.

Small talk for a while then as she was ready to leave
She said "we have made progress today" I asked how. She said I don't have to be in fear about her not helping financially.

I screwed up at this point, and said "I have other fears as well." she said "I have a lot to think about." me: "Like?" her: "Everything"


have you ever reassured her of anything? I mean, you seem to really put it all on her shoulders, including your needs.

This was temp taking as at this point I was talking about her plans re:R,M,OM and ASSUME she was as well.

No, she is not discussing OM. She's trying to find a reason to believe in you BUT

YOU are holding onto your self righteous anger instead of leading or helping her feel safe OR reassuring her. This is not helping you. It's not about OM.

Let me repeat that. It's NOT about OM.


Lots of sighing, stonewalling at this point (from her) as I tried to ask without asking. Don't remember what I said...panicky.



My blood turned cold, lips started tingling, and I KNOW my face changed. I got up and went to restroom. Came back she was crying. Asked her what's the matter, she said "I feel the old angry H coming back" I said "that wasn't anger that's hurt." discussion turned back to fears at this point. Talked more about forgiveness and trust being what we need.

Why don't YOU start by forgiving her and showing her that YOU are a different man? Let OM go and stop talking about YOUR pain...

YOU wrecked the finances of the family and

you harmed her r's with the kids WHILE you mistreated her....

This "she has to go first" stuff is wrong and unhealthy and frankly, ironic to me.

Backto small talk then goodbye.
Well I guess I am not detached. Definitely frustrated, though.

She agrees "this is what's needed" but doesn't commit. Maddening.

I cannot imagine she'd "Commit" to you at this point.

Again let me ask, what have you DONE that is new or different?

I'm not referring to what you SAY but what you ahve done.

You have taken NO actual action to pursue more work and that is kind of insane to me.

[Dm45]

Thanks for posting, 25

You let her down. Now you are telling her that YOU are in "financial limbo"...WHY do you tell her that? it's not her fault. And btw, it's NOT attractive either.

i told her that in response to her asking about me rejoining the IT workforce.

The limbo I speak of is more than covering expenses. My contribution in the last 3 months, from business and side work combined: aug:$1500, sep: $2200, oct:$3900. Add $250 to each of those for cell phones for the family. In early sept we decided she could quit her 2nd job, which she did.

The limbo I spoke of is that I feel paralyzed about making decisions about the future of the business (we have a lease obligation and surety bond obligation which can't be taken lightly) and retraining i am going to need to get back to where my job paid before business, with her out of the house and no guarantees or comitments about our M future.

The fact that you keep talking about YOUR anger makes me think that you are not ready to show change b/c it has not truly happened.

Please, Tell me what is different now.

How would marriage to you be better and different than before, for HER?

I vent my anger here, to try to keep it from showing to her. What is different now is I am no longer blind to her feelings. We will learn to communicate better, together as we both need to own our part. I am helping support, my long term goal is she works if she WANTS to. I practice on my kids every day my new anti anger anti bully communication.

What does that "Completely committed" comment mean? How are YOU BEHAVING differently? Financially speaking for you to whine to her or not have an extra job now,

to ME, means you are all show and no go.

Working the extra job for over 4 weeks.

"Forgiveness is a gift"? That means what? Please explain.

It means I don't deserve it, and can't earn it. It has to be given to me, if I am to get it. Before, or as, she becomes ready to R, she will forgive, or start to.

I forgive her. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. It does not wipe away the pain I feel. Not yet.

Have you asked her to forgive you? NOT in a way that means she has to take you back, but b/c you hurt her and let her down?

No. Frankly I am afraid of the answer. We have discussed that to move forward we both need to forgive, but I have not uttered the words "will you forgive me?" I told her I forgave her on day 1. To me, that means I take her back, when she recognizes the boundaries of marriage. I don't know how to separate the two.

[Dm45]

I cannot imagine she'd "Commit" to you at this point.

Again let me ask, what have you DONE that is new or different?

I'm not referring to what you SAY but what you ahve done.

You have taken NO actual action to pursue more work and that is kind of insane to me.

25, I've said several times I'm working an extra job. Interviewed for another last week, but it paid less.

My business is not home based. We have a lease on a building. We have a surety bond on fees paid in advance for services. To drop it tomorrow would incur serious debt consequences and may require bankruptcy.

I am willing to do it to save the marriage, but not just for a career change. I just remember reading you are a L? You prolly know more about it than I.

[25yearsmlc]

my comment was in response to Your answer to her when

she asked what you were doing in terms of action and follow up with your new career goal.

That's when YOU told her that you are in "financial limbo" and THEN you asked her to keep supporting you so you can DO something different

and I'm thinking she needs you to be self sufficient.

Bankruptcy isn't the nightmare some think it is, IF the alternative is never getting out of debt, and or losing a home and getting hits to your credit rating ANYHOW

and whatever other personal costs exist too...