Welcome to catch-22

[JuneReN]

Salut!

Try this: If they bring up that supervised visits are the law, you can say, no, they are not, but I am very happy to have you along . We are going to my place today to play piano and do some cooking in the kitchen, I think you will enjoy it as well!

I think W is scared you will take S and leave country. It just occurred to me. I would ,actually, bet 100% that this is the case.

As for the family thing-well, you (this is blunt) are not a family anymore and she may just see it as spiteful on your part trying for shared custody. All you can do in this instance is continue your 180s and love S every chance you get.

Moneywise- if it comes up, just say your son is always your priority or something to that effect

RT

[25yearsmlc]

Bruce,

put your helmet on b/c I have some 2 x 4s for you,

b/c you are not hearing what people are telling you AND OR you are only hearing the parts you like.

You are NOT a victim. You are not powerless here.

Take charge of and responsibility for your life and stop the blame game.
It gets you nowhere fast...spinning wheels and getting angrier and angrier helps NO ONE...so lose the anger and

start using a mirror to figure out where YOU need to focus your energy b/c it's solely on YOU and your work.

And take some breaths...slow down your expectation level....you are rushing this like an impatient little boy who says "but I SAID I was sorry! Why can't I have my way NOW?!!"

And life does not work that way.

Frankly, I don't even believe you are sorry - except you're sorry SHE left you.

I don't hear any actual remorse for how she felt neglected or her concerns about you as a father. You said you asked for forgiveness. For what, Specifically?

Did you ask for forgiveness b/c you equated it with her taking you back---

or b/c you felt genuine sorrow for your mistakes, & for hurting her?

See, I'm picking up big time vibes of self righteousness that annoys me AND I don't even know you.

Self righteousness is an unfortunate and ugly flaw I have worked on for some time now.

So I tend to pick up on it fast b/c it's a trait I constantly need to remind myself to work on....sort of it "takes one to know one"...

RE: SEP TIME--

I was sep from my h for 2 YEARS...you need a better time line for purposes of perspective.

But yes, we reconciled 4+ years ago.

The time apart is a gift for you to use to work on yourself.

Changes are much easier to notice when you don't see each other every day. Being separated as we were, by 3000 miles was so hard. It was very difficult in many ways,

but the distance apart did have at least that One upside. So Make the most of it. Make the changes you need to make and trust that they'll show in your behavior.

Bonsoir,
W was giving too much attention to the new born and nothing to the husband.


While this ^^^MAY be true, (or just your perception) it's also NORMAL at first. The baby must live, after all, and it depends entirely on the parent(s) for that survival. It literally needs the parent's attention, to live.

New mothers are nervous and concerned about themselves in their most important role (ie "am I a good mother?") and at the same time we are facing physical challenges as well. Often we feel less attractive too, b/c we have to lose weight so we don't feel sexy or desirable. The lack of intimacy that childbirth dictates is something that hurts wives too. IT's not just an unmet need for the h.

And let's face it, while the baby WILL die without our help, the h can feed himself, dress himself, grab a blanket if he's cold, and use a toilet.

By the very nature of having a newborn, the mother is exhausted physically from a 9 month pregnancy and then going into labor, and that's assuming no complications...

& ALL WHILE also being emotionally and physically challenged like she's never been before--to care for the newborn!

I was in law school when our son was born, so I was busy and pre-occupied but motherhood stopped all of what I was doing.

What MOST struck me about becoming a mother, was that giving birth was MUCH more physically demanding than I knew, and the exhaustion I had was unlike anything I'd ever felt before--

AND at the same time, I was expected to meet the needs of a demanding colicky baby 24/7!

I thank God my h took time off that summer b/c I was really struggling, but I loved being a mom. Yet it was a lot harder than I expected.

SIDENOTE---

So one night around 3 am, when our son was only a few weeks old, I was out of sorts b/c I did not know what to do to help him, as he was colicky and just crying and crying.

My h had to work in the morning that day, but we were both awake obviously. Finally I found the right "rhythm" & was rocking son and he was calming down some,

and my h said "Wow w, it's like you know what you're doing w/son. You're really good at this...like a natural."

That comment was over 23 years ago - and I still recall it vividly b/c
I felt appreciated.

Motherhood WAS damn hard... I did not have "prior" training... I worried about being a good mother.

So My h's words meant a lot to me. We were both new parents and both in school...both struggling to do our best. H was so interested in our son he actually weighed him on a scale and charted his growth.

We were both fascinated by our son's existence and everything he did. We did get closer and my h being a good father was HUGE to me.

I had never loved him more than I did that summer.


** If my h had whined or sulked about not getting all of MY attention then, I'd have been so disappointed in him.

I'd have thought something like "hey we're a team - and this child is OUR responsibility, not just 'mine',

& I'd have asked him

how about YOU help ME MORE, and ask LESS of ME??"


See, all newborns take a lot of time and energy, and the first 2 years after the birth of a child ARE the most demanding...


But while some women may go over board when they first become a mother, another phenomenon is that selfish or immature H's resent the child getting the attention the h used to get. Instead of joining their w with the child care, or helping her feel loved, they make it about their own unmet needs...



Of course, ALL H's get less focussed attention from the w when a baby is born

(and all wives are working harder & a lot more when a baby is first born).

It's just a reality of life.

So, What does a healthy loving H & father, do?

He helps his wife MORE. NOT less...he does not make it about HIS needs... He attends to her, he dotes on her more, he appreciates her more. He bonds with the child so it's not all on the w's shoulders.

How does the selfish H handle it?

He might dive into his own hobbies even more, & or be gone from home more,

(just when his w needs him around her more)

If he's gone so much that it effectively makes ALL the responsibility for the child the wife's-then she sees less of her h,& the h bonds LESS with the child, which

makes the wife believe he's not much of a father...

OR
the self centered h shows his resentment w/sulking, or passive aggressive behaviors, things he "forgets" to do...

OR he buys himself more things to play with, and then he looks worse in the wife's eyes.


AND OR all of the above^^^...

Bruce, I wasn't there & I don't know you or your wife. But I have been on this site for a long time and I do see some patterns.

I have hunch that you are not used to really looking in the mirror to see why she might not want back in...

I don't buy that a wife and new mother who feels loved by her h, and has his son, leaves him b/c he didn't set up an account for their son.

New moms tend to crave emotional support, stability and safety for her child, not upheaval and crisis and financial loss...so there's more to why she left than you've admitted or faced...

If you dont' want to tell us, so be it. But YOU need to face whatever it is

AND we can help you a lot more when we know the whole truth.

The longer you take to see your role in this, & to truly OWN it, the less your chances of reconciling are.


As a mother, I assure you that it's moving to see my h lovingly interact with our children.

I recall him on the floor playing dolls with our first d, and I KNEW he'd never done that growing up. But he got into it and it pleased her so much = and that was all that mattered to him. And I fell in love with him all over again.


Bruce, NOTHING moves a mother more than the loving interaction between her child and his father. It's emotionally and maritally and spiritually a turn on.

If i were you, I'd be the best dad I could be and be grateful for any and all time with him. Maybe even THANK HER for bringing him into your world and act as if you "get" that for whatever reason, she wants out...

but you want IN as a father...and ask/expect nothing from her otherwise.

She'll notice.

You may want to read Crimson's thread around here, from the beginning. He is a man who has really dug deep and he found himself wanting...he was not happy with what he found...

BUT now, he's a changed man. I can't promise he'll get his wife back but they sure are closer than before....and he's a MUCH better man. He is "awake" now...

And as for the legal matters, refer ALL those issues to the lawyers.

Yes it cost a little more in the short run, but I think it saves in the long run b/c reality will sink in faster when her own L tells her the truth about what to expect....

and the thing is, keeping the legal matters separate from the family matters, INCREASES the chances of recon in my opnion...compartmentalizing can be useful,

b/c it separates you from the "ugly stuff"...

She will see you as the father of her child, playing & guiding him....and being a great co-parent, a man who has had "an awakening"...

but the legalities inflicted on you both, won't be as associated with you b/c you won't process them with her.

If she were to bring something up about the divorce,

You can say "W as you know, I was hoping we'd wish work on having a BETTER marriage -- but I accept that you don't want that now and you are on your own path now....

But let's have the L's work all the details out, b/c I don't want my 'daddy time' OR our time together, to be spent on that stuff"....besides

She's not objectively capable of working out legal matters with you right now. ANd I am confident her fear is you taking him away out of country so the more she sees you behaving lovingly with him AND returning him when expected, the more she'll trust it.
UNLESS there's a reason for her to not have you w/unsupervised visits with your son.



At first I thought it was normal, then, I knew something was wrong...
Now she is over protective. The kid can't stand on a chair without her running to get him in case he falls..

She is seeking D because, if I understand well, 1.I was not family minded enough. And 2. I spent unwisely all the money on fun things for me (mainly sports things).
These two things are easy to amend, which I did.


Maybe you do NOT understand well...

B/C I doubt that "not being family minded enough" is easy to fix. It's NOT a small complaint.

It means you were focussed on YOU and NOT on "the family" of which she is a part....

it's a self centered approach to life and it's a selfishness problem, Bruce...I suspect it's just not that easy for her to believe that after years of you being "not family minded" you suddenly are...

(even if you do not agree with her perception it IS her perception)

And so, HOW is it that you have "amended" this anyhow? I mean, You SAY you want more time with your son...

and that's it?

IS THAT supposed to convince her that you are now "family minded" and no longer self centered? If I were her, I would not buy that.

So, what do you mean you've "amended" it? What actions of yours would make HER believe that?

Here's what YOU must understand Bruce...for this is KEY to your happiness, and hers and any chance of having an intact family again..

Your wife will NOT return to you UNLESS-

she believes that Marriage to You can be better/different than before....period.

Not more of the same.

So, what are you DOING to SHOW/DEMONSTRATE that to her?

We're talking fundamental, manifested change in YOU, at a core level.

I am not getting that from you at all.

I'm getting a few surface gestures on your part, that you think are "all fixed now" AND I'm getting a sense of entitlement in you, for her to return.

Like you have earned it.

But my gut says that all was NOT well in the m. I think there are things you missed.

While her SPECIFIC complaints may have involved an education account, there's no way THAT is the reason she left you.

But it IS an easy thing for YOU to use as an example. And it's easy to fix.

What are the HARDER things to fix, that she might say were problems in the marriage?

Focus on those...^^


But it seems her pride refuses to admit that it was a little silly, so almost just to make a point, she intends to pursue D until she has it, to not make a fool of herself.

Do you actually believe this^^^? You think it's HER Pride and thta's it's silly? You think she made a fool of herself? Does anyone who knows you two believe that?

Her family sure seem to think she had a point. Does anyone who knows you both, believe she's being "silly"?


I think it may be YOUR PRIDE talking here^^...

Bruce, You're wasting your time if you stay stuck in the "victim" mentality.

Dig deeper my friend,

or you'll lose your marriage for good.

What traits in you would YOU like to change, to become the best Bruce you can become?


As for the supervised visits, it all started because her dad first gave her a ride and was there when we first meet when I arrived.

that does not explain why you are not "qualified" to see your son without a supervisor. That's just weird.
Your wife cannot simply declare that you must have supervised visits.

BTW, Have you ever cared for him alone, before?

Ever had him overnight on your own?


Then, the grandmother who keeps our son during the day came along for each visit, and she said it was better due to the emotionally difficulty of the situation.


What was happeing that would make someone believe it was "emotionally difficult" for YOUR SON?? Why would she say this?


Did it matter to you very much? Is the reason you want him more often b/c you want your w back and figured the "toddler" was part of the package you were willing to cope with?

And so it was that they were only available twice a week, and they came up with this thing that it was the law, my visits had to be supervised. Which I never contested or argued, for the sake of reconciliation.

I hope you can see now that your consent was probably seen as LESS concern about your son, and NOT as a cooperative move on your end? If anything, it lessened you in their eyes. And lessened the chances of recon.

IMO, the more you fight for your son, the better you look- BUT you do it b/c you want to be the best father you can be,

NOT b/c you want to look like a good father. Make sense?


I just come back from the lawyer, and all of it is BS as I long knew it was. She petitions 100% custody, but it isn't likely to happen. So, to answer the question of respect, she will begin to see that I am not a yes-yes nice guy (in a bad sense), but I have the guts to say enough is enough, and ask for what is mine and which is my fair right.
Maybe also she will realize that D is ugly, it brings destruction and not happiness or fulfilment or freedom...

Maybe...all we KNOW is that if there's no good reason for your visits to be supervised, then you will get him more AND she will have less time with him.

Period. That will be a loss for her. She may wonder why you "care NOW" b/c it will appear to her that you are only doing it to get back at her.

But the reality is that you were used to having them both around, even if you were not attentive. So you are feeling a loss as well.

If she complains about her loss of time with son, (and Crimson's wife did)

you have to say you "understand" b/c YOU also "miss him and time together"...

so you validate her feelings b/c you share them, you don't tell her that's what she gets & you'll show her!

She knows what the marriage was really like. She knows what her true reasons for leaving were/are. I hope you do too, but I'm not so sure...

If she had good reasons, and you don't fix them, then it's over.

IF she did not have good reasons for leaving -OR if you do address the reasons for real, then it's all about you showing the changes are real and permament and her believing in those changes, and her letting the good memories resurface...

(b/c her fear is that if she takes you back, you'll backslide & repeat the behaviors she can't take any more of...)

How will that happen? How do you "get" her to believe in the changes?

There are no guarantees, but the formula that has worked more than any other is this:

consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.


I will be extra careful in always taking the high road in my behaviour and feelings. After all I'm a Christian and my attitude should be perfect in my relation to my wife.

As a matter of fact, I know she is blinded for the moment. It could've had happened to me, and I would want my wife to be patient and fight to save our couple.

What does this^^ comment mean? What is "blinding" her?

Also, it's interesting you wrote the words "fight to save our couple"....

did you mean "fight to save our FAMILY"?


So, I will love her the best I can, be her friend and supporter, her listener and understander. I want to be the best father for our son, teach him my language, traditions, music and culinary art and the love for French literature.

That's really all I can do, my best friend, my wife, is the very one who can't help me.

She is NOT the very one to help you do this.

You are, and always have been, the one in charge of your choices and behaviors, and life.

Please Bruce, dig deeper.

[labug]

Couldn't have said it better.

And about the respect, as I see it respect is earned not forced on someone.

You can make them cower and be fearful with your anger and attempts to control, but that's not respect.

As 25 says, hold that mirror up to yourself.

[Grateful]

Couldn't have said it better.

And about the respect, as I see it respect is earned not forced on someone.

You can make them cower and be fearful with your anger and attempts to control, but that's not respect.

As 25 says, hold that mirror up to yourself.

I can't agree more. I have finally (after 35 years on this earth) come to the conclusion that 90% of the troubles that have happened to me (including more than the sitch I find myself in) because of MY selfishness. It is so easy to blame others, or it was for me. I have repented of this to the Lord, and I am doing all I can to change that. It took me 35 years to get to where I am; I pray that it doesn't take 35 more to get the selfishness out.

[Big Bruce]

ouch !

[labug]

And Bruce, as you read thru all of this, anytime you find yourself thinking "Yes, but wife did X and so I did Y." Stop and remember that you responsible for your choices, your actions, your behavior.

[Dm45]

Everybody, book mark THAT post for posterity!
(from 25)
I definitely will be soaking that in after church today. My kids are much older but so much of that hit me between the eyes.

[MrBond]

25 said it alot nicer than I would have.

[Big Bruce]

My friends,
The thing on self-righteousness is right on. I'm guilty of it. But a wise man knows when he should be humble and accept correction. I will do my best to get rid of it. And selfishness too. Guilty big time.

As for my attitude towards W, I said I was sorry, I have written letters asking for forgiveness for very precise things, I showed remorse and a change in my attitude. But that's probably not enough I suppose.

Today was my "visit" day, and the library was closing doors, and I proposed we went somewhere else, and W says : "there's only half hour left anyway". Ouch, I clearly feel she doesn't enjoy spending time with me. (Needless to say, she came with her mum to supervise).

All of this is about to change. She's in for a surprise tomorrow, when they receive the counter petition from my lawyer asking for my son every other week.
I don't mean it in a malign way. It's just that she really is convinced she has the right to have our son all for herself!
I know this sounds crazy, and you probably think I am exaggerating, but she does think she's doing my a favour by granting me two visits a week!

This coming week, I really have to focus on responding gently and calmly. No anger, no bitterness, just a husband who loves his child. W will be furious, mad and sore angry. I'm NOT trying to force respect on anyone, but I think that I gave several opportunities for her to make a step in my direction, and she has to realize that her own choices lead to the explosion of our family. So far, she didn't feel ANY of the consequences of her choice to separate.

I am not the victim, but nobody was at the airport when I arrived in the country, I slept in a youth hostel while looking for a place to rent, walked miles by foot to sort my several documents and buy food, English is not my language and I struggled, while she had a house, a car, friends and family here.

W stopped attending church (of course, living in sin doesn't go well together), she rarely smiles, she changed lots. She's not the cheerful girl I knew back in France. What happened?

[MrBond]

Hmmm, alot of what you posted sounded self-righteous to me. Even what you posted to sweetbabyred. Just because you say "sorry" doesn't mean that she's going to believe you've changed.

"I know this sounds crazy, and you probably think I am exaggerating, but she does think she's doing my a favour by granting me two visits a week!"

Why should she think any different? You didn't show any interest before and spent your time on sports. Just because you SAY you've changed, doesn't mean that you have.

"I'm NOT trying to force respect on anyone,"

It's very obvious you are.

"but I think that I gave several opportunities for her to make a step in my direction,"

That's very big of you. What you don't seem to understand is that you lost her respect in the first place. Just because you say you've "changed" doesn't mean she needs to start turning towards you. It's arrogant to think this.

"So far, she didn't feel ANY of the consequences of her choice to separate. "

Of course not, because you weren't there before when you thought things were good. That's why she doesn't miss you or think anything of it because emotionally you've been absent.

"I am not the victim,"

Yes you're acting like one or else you wouldn't have posted all of the things that happened to you.

"W stopped attending church (of course, living in sin doesn't go well together),"

Very self-righteous attitude.

"she rarely smiles, she changed lots."

Of course not. You don't think this affects her? On some level it does. But she's tired of being hurt by you and is trying to get over the pain of breaking up the family. She's afraid to go back to you because she thinks you'll never change (because you didn't before). What guarantee does she have that you will? So right now she's not willing to take the chance with you and feels that being on her own would be happier than life with you.

"She's not the cheerful girl I knew back in France. What happened?"

You did. Your behavior changed her. I don't think you seem to grasp that. In the beginning, I'm sure you showed her plenty of respect and attention and she reciprocated in kind. Then when your son was born, she started spending more time on him (which is a perfectly natural thing for a mother to do) but you resented it. So rather than helping, you did the opposite. You spent less time with her and more on yourself. So she didn't have a partner in you. You used to be someone who could empathize and be compassionate towards her needs. Once you stopped, you broke that connection.

I know that France is a male-dominated society. But once you treat a woman like that, you will lose her respect.

If you really are "changed", you have to start seeing things from he point of view and truly understand it. That's the only way to save your M.