CV, I really feel for you. So many of the things you say ring true in my sitch - no intimacy, no safety, no trust that H will do what he says he will. It's endlessly frustrating and I can definitely see why you think there's little chance of that changing.
I wish I had some advice for you, but right now I'm just enjoying hearing what AJ and KD have to say to you... it's helpful to me too even though I'm not really the WAW.
I guess what I'd say to you is this: decide what you can live with and what you can't - and see if the non-negotiables can be improved.
Me54, H53 M 23, T 25 S20, S18 BD: April 2024 Moved out: August 2024
Love means not giving up on someone even if they've given up on you.
"Being right is the booby prize of life." - Susan Page
So here's some WAS thought process, in keeping with the forum. I followed this line of thinking after reading Adinva's post about the conversation with her H. My thought was "the elephant in the room." And the fact that H and I have an elephant in the room right now that he's perfectly comfortable ignoring.
So that, coupled with an enjoyable day alone while H and son had boy scout activities, lead to an odd series of thoughts where, to me, H is the elephant in the room. I ended up thinking that I can think of a 100 reasons why I wouldn't want to live with an elephant. A real one, that is. It isn't that I don't think they're incredible, awesome, intelligent, fascinating, etc. They are. But they also cost a lot to keep, eat a ton, poop really big, messy piles, can be violent, smell bad, take up a lot of space, etc. (I probably don't need to list all 100 reasons, right?) So even though I think they're great, living with one is something entirely different.
And even though the elephant is not something I would care to live with, I wouldn't want it killed to punished or anything else bad to happen to it. In fact, putting it with another elephant seems like the best thing for it. I would even be excited to see it when I went to the zoo, maybe bring it a couple of apples (assuming they eat apples.) And I could do/feel that because I woudln't have to live with it anymore and feel over-burdened/frustrated/annoyed by the list of 100 reasons.
Instead, I live with a dog. He is a wonderful border collie named Starbuck. To me, he is absolutely perfect. Is he perfect? Of course not! Just to me. And not just because I love him, because I would love the elephant, too. But because he has a ton of qualities that I find very enjoyable TO LIVE WITH. He's very loyal, obedient, friendly, smart, energetic, cute, affectionate, clean, completely housebroken, doesn't chew up anything, etc. However, he also has a lot of traits that some other people would NOT like, evidenced by the fact that he's a rescue from the pound. He's 45-50 pounds (too big?), sheds a lot, is very energetic (needs lots of exercise,) leaves his toys all over the house, barks when he's excited, eats quite a bit, poops fairly large piles, and lifts his legs on EVERYTHING. So even though he's far from perfect, he's still perfect for me. I can overlook his shortcomings because the good far outweighs the bad.
H is the elephant in the room. I don't want to live with an elephant, and I can't make an elephant into a dog. I can't see that I would even try.
And so is the evolution of a WAS. At least my version.
I think that what you state above CV, is very common.
The reality of it being, it is entirely you choice to make a life with the dog or make a life with the elephant... or both... or neither...
To that end, there is nothing the elephant can do, to make itself more appealing to you. And there'd have to be some serious violation by the dog to have you leave it. Would it have to bite you? Make love to your leg? What would it take for the dog to be less appealing?
The elephant of course, is wondering "why NOT me?" And while you have your 100 reasons, the elephant looks at the dog and wonders why you choose the dog over it.
And I have to say that, you really don't have an answer. You have 100 reasons. And you have 100 reasons why the dog is also not perfect. Yet you choose the dog.
I think the biggest issue for me here is that when I explain to him that he did something that hurt my feelings, his response always begins with, "I know, but...(defend, defend, defend.)" So maybe the truth is that I CAN trust him, but I can trust him to continue to do the same things that hurt me before because he doesn't see it as a problem. That doesn't foster intimacy and safety.
In its most simplistic form, if he says he'll do something, he needs to do it. He acknowledges that matching his actions to his words is a big problem for him, has been as long as he can remember. Thurs night, I said in a lighthearted way that I'd give him a dollar if he'd check S12's homework because I was so tired and needed to go to bed. He said he would. Friday morning it was unchecked, he had forgotten. This was not a mistake, this is a way of life with him. Is this unclear somehow? Is this unreasonable? Expecting too much?
Is your H ADD? What you describe there sounds like he could be. It's not that he didn't promise and expect to do what he said he would. He didn't. That sounds more ADD than behavioral or "against" you. Possible?
Quote:
Could you please expound upon the actions vs. cause?
Sure. I "knew" the actions to help her and give her what she "asked" for (without really using words). The actions were actions for her sake. I didn't know the cause. She wanted out as if her a** was on fire and her head was catching (I still don't know "why"). I didn't realize that when she re-remembered our past that it wasn't anything to do with me or the death of her nephew. I didn't realize it was her wanting out, but I heard the words she used and for a while believed it was about me and my imperfections. She came up with all kinds of stories that she revised many times about what I had done wrong. I see now that very little was to do with me. I'm not perfect. But I also didn't do even close to the things she accused me of. It was her perspective (which she remembers very little of now). I watched as she came up with many stories to justify the affair and the leaving. My "actions" were in response, largely. Once I knew what the bigger picture, my actions became more authentic and my changes became for me. That's when they became real.
In the end, there was only one change that was related to why she said she "hardened her heart" and left me and the kids. Even that, I found through counseling, was a bad response to her behavior. I changed it because it was a bad response and I don't like that about me. No excuses, but I figured out what the root cause was. Only then was I able to change that.
My motives all along were always for what I viewed as the best. Even when it came to dealing with her and her issues amidst the accusations and re-remembering of our 20 years together.
Change happens because you have to adapt. Real change happens because you want to. Action is just action, but motives make all the difference. Actions on your H's part are coming across as somebody trying to save his marriage but not knowing how. That's partially because he is not the only one in the relationship. It's also be cause he cannot do it alone. Takes two.
But there's more to the story. Much more that we cannot see. Right?
Quote:
What motives? His? Mine?
Both
Does that help?
Peace, AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
So just to add a couple more things, what AJ said about possible ADD.
First, ADD is not an excuse. In the same token, as he submits, you appear to see it as him attempting to disrespect you.
I would submit that your H very honestly meant what he agreed to do, at that time. That he did not, while you focus on it, is not an indicator that he initially lied or intended to cause you harm or pain.
That said, choosing to be with someone and spending a lifetime with them is a choice. No one makes us do that, we choose it. It is entirely our responsibility.
In the same way that leaving someone is entirely our choice. We choose it. It is entirely our responsibility. No one makes us do it.
You (are torn, and so are trying to figure this out, but if you do not choose to be with your H, you) are choosing to not want to be with your H. You are simply giving reasons why. In the end, it is simply your choice and your responsibility. No one else'.
Making reasons is very common... very human... always and also with a WAS.
It reminds me of a discussion I had with my stbX.
Many months ago, we had some sort of R talk. I can't remember the details, the specifics were, she suggested that the reality was, she had chosen out of the M. I light heartedly indicated that may not be entirely correct.
While that may be the case, two and a half (and then some) years ago, the reality was, and I mentioned this to her, it was I that left the M. It was I that pushed for the legal separation (began acting on it), it will be I that files D.
I can give you a whole bunch of reasons why. Why did I not participate in the M as she wanted? Why did I appear to not be fully engaged in the M? Why did I leave the marital home? Why did I push for S? Why will I file for D?
I can give you all the reasons. The reality is, it was entirely my choice and my responsibility.
So consider...
Why are you making reasons? No, you aren't making them up, you are choosing to hide behind them. Answering why will not change your choice.
You... right now... for the past [insert time frame here], have begun to choose out... The reasons are not due to your H. The reasons are due to you.
I really appreciate... honour... that you are questioning that choice.
But just as you find reasons to leave...
You are looking for reasons to stay...
And just it is your choice and responsibility to leave, nothing to do with your H, except reasons. It will be your choice and responsibility to stay, nothing to do with your H, except reasons.
You don't need reasons. You simply need the courage and strength to be responsible.
That may be harsh. It is the reality.
And that is what was going on with your weekend out with the girls.
You shifted.
What ever the reasons, they do not matter. YOU shifted your perspective.
Find that... and you will find your authentic self. And your choices will be easy to make.
It's very common for people who are choosing out of a relationship, to suggest that love is a choice. People grasp at that idea, hold onto it as though their life depends on it.
The reality is, love is not a choice. Love simply is...
The choice...
Is to be or not be with someone... completely... intimately...
This is generally based on fear...
The fear is of being hurt...
The fear of loving someone, and not getting that love back, in turn...
Because we... people... love...
That is not a choice.
Choosing to be with someone. Commit to someone. "For better or for worse... etc" That is the choice.
You are afraid to love, because you have reasons why you think that love is not being returned. So you choose to leave. You don't choose not to love.
You are hiding your love in a tight little box, away from anyone. And will do so for quite some time, even if you do find someone you choose to be with. You will hide that love from them, too. For a long time, or for ever.
When you truly commit to your choice. When you take responsibility for your choice (no pressure here, we all know that you aren't cutting the cord here, at this time), you can choose to love freely again. Without fear of being hurt. Hurt... also... is a choice.
You love your son. Even if he does something really bad. It will hurt. But you will love him. You choose to love your dog, even if he humps your leg.
You love your H.
Yet you choose to leave him.
Because of reasons.
Reasons that you see as him trying to hurt you. That he does not care about your feelings. And many, many more reasons.
So...
Take your time and make your choice and yes... you may need reasons to gather the strength and courage...
KD, I'm going to come back to your interim posts in a second, because I had already typed this out. So to the earlier posts...
The dog could certainly become less appealing to live with. Take away all the positive aspects and there you have it. It would obviously be a lot more difficult for the elephant to change in a manner that would make living with it more appealing, because the basis of the issues are sort of what an elephant "IS." It couldn't get smaller, eat less or poop less messy. It could bathe frequently to make it smell less badly but that's about it.
The thing is, when I was single and looking for a pet (H), I didn't just fall for the first cute little pet that I came across without putting any thought into it. I knew I wouldn't want to live with an elephant. I dated elephants and giraffes and honey badgers, but opted out, even though I cared for some of them a lot. I knew I wanted a dog. The problem is that H presented himself as a dog. If H would have been the slightest bit honest before we got M'd, I would have recognized him as an elephant and kept on looking.
I think the key point to pull away from my analogy is that I'm not looking for something PERFECT. My dog has traits that are unpleasant, but he's still enjoyable to live with. I've had dogs that weren't. My H doesn't have to be perfect either, just someone in which his positive traits outweigh the bad. And that has to be possible without contorting myself into someone that I don't even recognize.
Sure, I could make it work with the elephant. I could get three jobs so that I could support its eating habits. Or I could leave everyone and everything behind and move to the African Sahara. I could have my smell sensors surgically removed so the stink didn't bother me. I could wear fishing waders to navigate through the dung. I COULD do all these things, but why would I? I spent too many of the early years of our M doing exactly that (contorting myself into someone unrecognizable), all in the name of a "happy M" or "happy H," and I won't do it again.
AJM, my H has been advised that he could be ADD. Several people have suggested it. He has never pursued any diagnosis. I don't believe he did it on purpose either, but his intention doesn't make it any less burdensome when I'm unprepared and have to squeeze in it into my morning routine. His only "behavior against me" is the fact that he hasn't pursued the diagnosis in order to fix it. Before we got M'd, he told me the lesson he learned from his first M was that if "I" have a problem, then "we" have a problem, implying that he would own it too and address it. I have yet to see that played out in real life, but the sales pitch sure sounded good.
Originally Posted By: AJM
Actions on your H's part are coming across as somebody trying to save his marriage but not knowing how.
And this is where I get completely flabbergasted. How can that possibly be????!!! First, he says all I ever do is criticize. It's not true, but let's go with his perspective and assume that he believes he's riddled with daily criticism. So, for example, if I criticize him endlessly and say that he's being irresponsible with money and needs to get more involved, to stop spending on things we don't need, to stop putting the burden on me to bail us out when he can't make the monthly bills, how can he NOT know what to do? How is it okay to go buy a third car, a Lexus, just because he doesn't like to drive the van because he doesn't like how it handles?
The thing is, I'm not even arguing with you. I believe he doesn't know what to do either. In respect to the convo on Friday night that went bad, at the end he asked me what he could do. I was dumbfounded. He had already told me that I spent the whole convo criticizing him. So I asked him to give me a half-dozen examples. He could only give me four. So we went over each one individually. For example, if "criticized" him by saying I don't like his lying (distorting the truth in conversations so that he covers his butt or makes himself look better), then the "thing to do" would be ..... to stop lying? be honest? Stop distorting the truth? What is the mystery?
We went through all four examples. Five minutes later, he asked again what he could do to improve things. It's crazy-making for me.
You seem to think that your H actually wants to be married to you.
When he could very well be saying, "She presented like a swan, when in fact she really is a trumpet. I never would have married a trumpet."
You seem to think that he's just trying to make marriage to you, easy...
Don't we all want that?
Marriage should be easy. Our spouses should just BE the person we think they are... that we want them to be...
Does your H just simply want you to stop nagging, so that he can go about selfishly and do his own thing, without regard to you?
Do you simply want your H to be the dog, rather than the elephant, so that you can go about, doing your own thing, without regard to your H?
Because...
Why would marriage to you, be any better for your H... from this day, forward?
I'd submit that if he was everything you wanted him to be, he would be living in fear for the rest of his life, that he might step out of line and have you all over him again, detailing all the things he does wrong...
KD, you're a much more "zen"-type thinker than I am. I think I'm much more simple/linear than you. Too many years doing binary computer work, perhaps. I wish I could glean everything you're trying to tell me. I'm sure you're still helping others with your posts, even if I'm not grasping all of it, so thanks for posting. I'll try to respond to at least a few things.
As I said previously in regard to the ADD, no, I don't think he does his stuff on purpose. I don't think he was intentionally disrespecting me when he didn't check the homework. But knowing it's a problem (ADD) and not addressing it and seeking a remedy is his choice, and that choice directly affects me. Knowing how it affects me and not doing anything about it is disrespectful to me, and that manifests itself in the daily stuff. So the disrespect is secondary but real. If I got myself sloshing drunk, then killed someone driving home, I could honestly say that it was not my intention to kill them. However, it was my intention to get sloshing drunk and drive, knowing full well killing someone is a good possibility. My intentions in that scenario hardly make me innocent and are rather irrelevant frankly, especially to the person/family that is dead.
As to the weekend away, my shift in attitude is not a surprise. People go on vacation all the time, to get away, to rejuvenate, to relax and pretend for a while, to leave the problems behind for a time. And then the vacation ends and they go back to life exactly as they left it. Vacations are wonderful, but temporary. Reality is full-time, and it bites.
Ah, the love debate. Line that up with forgiveness, loyalty, honesty, sacrifice, faith, etc. I hear your perspective but I'll pass on a discussion of it. People much smarter than I have debated that, endlessly, and without consensus. I'll just say that I see a distinction between loving someone and living with them.
