WAS vs. LBS

[Crazyville]

A, didn't mean to skip your post. Yes, that sounds like a good idea. The C has my phone number but has not opted to call me yet, so I suspect he has enough to work with right now. If/when he calls, I'll see if that would work with him. Thanks for the suggestion.

[AJM]

CrazyV, I see what you're saying. But I think it's a good idea to point something out: your husband is different then your other friends. As such, you deal with him differently, right?

I get the disappointment, but what I saw in your post is that you see things differently more than a "lie" per se. That's an outsider looking in vs. man/woman thing.

What do you do? I think stepping back and seeing that you're "different" is a good start. Not to say that you both can't change, and not to say he doesn't have things to work on, but you both have different things to work on that contribute to the dynamic - both healthy dynamic and unhealthy dynamic.

Be the change you want to see. I see things you can both change that would help, if that helps

Peace,
AJ

[mamabird]

He does not want to be called on anything, and he only comments on people behind their backs.

We absolutely have this dynamic. H is very concerned with what people think of him, and any complaint is viewed as criticism. Forget constructive criticism. Once in a while he can accept that but not often. Any issue that I have is me exerting my need to control everything. That's how it goes in my house anyway.

So how do I deal with it? I have to just start calling him on stuff but in as constructive a way as possible, I guess. I am not going to let important things slide, such as "you need to be more respectful to me" - boundaries, in other words. But his sensitivity to complaints led me to keep stuff inside, which has eventually led to the mess we are in.

My H needs to develop a thicker skin I think. As I'm writing this, I realize that he usually surrounds himself with people who don't challenge him. I even put something in my own thread about how his family just accepts our sitch 100% without challenging. I don't see that as helpful help from a family.

[Crazyville]

AJ, yes I treat H differently. But we should have an even MORE intimate R with each other than we have with anyone else. For example, he WANTS me to tell him if he has bad breath or hair growing out his ears. This is not something I would ever tell a friend, even a very close one. And I don't consider what he did regarding the loan a lie, but rather hypocritical in regards to his comment about his daughter. I realize that we're different. That's not the difficulty, but rather finding areas where we're the same. THAT's what makes R so difficult for me with him. I can't even imagine quite what it would look like. Friendly strangers rather than indifferent strangers?

I can't change him, so any suggestions you have for ME is always appreciated.

R-LA, you know I can sooo relate to your sitch. I can't tie in the backgrounds, though. H was not abandoned by his mother, he didn't have a dysfunctional upbringing, etc. But yours and mine sure look alot alike today. I've tried to call H on things in the past. Either I do it nice and he completely ignores me because I'm "really not serious" because I'm not screaming and yelling, or he goes immediately on the defensive. The control thing, too. My having a different opinion is somehow me trying to control him.

Part of me wishes that I could be more like my H. You know the saying, "Ignorance is bliss?" For example, his driving habits. He'll ride in the passing lane. Then the person who has been riding on his butt finally speeds around him on the right, flips him off and then cuts in front. H is completely oblivious to any of it. If I point it out, he's completely surprised. And unaffected. Oftentimes he doesn't even move out of the fast lane, or he will for just a few minutes and then goes back to it. He's not being a jerk, he just operates in his own little world, oblivious to how what he is doing affects anyone around him.

BTW, just a sidebar note from a WAS... H has been doing the "affirmation" thing suggested to LBS's. Frankly, I hate it. It sounds so patronizing. I'm only mentioning this because I know some LBS's have questioned whether it would come off that way. I guess it depends upon the delivery, but there's definitely the possibility of it not being well-received. For me, it's just too scripted. Like flowers on Valentine's day. Zero thought, zero meaning, zero investment.

[AJM]

But we should have an even MORE intimate R with each other than we have with anyone else.

Yes! Now the trick is, how to have that kind of relationship. What does that take?? Oh wait, at least two people that are trying to have that kind of relationship right? What else does it take (not what it looks like, but what does it take - I'll give you a hint - fear is the anti-relationship)

I can't change him, so any suggestions you have for ME is always appreciated.

I disagree but it's a fine point. You can't change him. He, and he alone can change him. What makes him change? His desire to change. What fuels his desire to change? Fear? Bullying? Berating? Nagging? Affirmation? Giving him what he wants? (none of those if you're still asking).
Your behavior directly influences his. It's part of the dynamic. So I suppose part of the question is what is your part in the dynamic and how does that affect his behavior.

For me, it's just too scripted. Like flowers on Valentine's day. Zero thought, zero meaning, zero investment.

Really? Then why does he do it? I mean, why bother if he doesn't mean it? Does he have some other goal in mind? If so, what would that be? Could it be his way of trying to connect with you? Could it be he doesn't know any other way to REACT to you? What is it you really want then? What do you want him to do? What do you think he should be doing besides these actions? What actions should he be doing, in the absence of figuring out what you want (you may have told him in your words, but that's the not same as him figuring it out, right?)

What does an imperfect man have to do to let you know he is trying to have an intimate relationship with you?

Your emotions seem heightened again. Am I misreading that?

Peace,
AJ

[Crazyville]

What else does it take

This was a great Q. I even posed it to H tonight. Our short list was trust, loyalty, respect, shared interests, shared values, honesty, etc. Not surprising, we don't share any of them.

So I suppose part of the question is what is your part in the dynamic and how does that affect his behavior.

Another good question, but I don't have an answer. It seems to be the question I'm always asking. In the convo today, I'm not sure where I should have veered the course. He didn't like me calling him on it, even though I did so very gently and politely. We talked for a while tonight and I asked him a similar question about how I could have handled it differently. It didn't go well. He just takes everything as criticism, which is not my intention and just makes me shut down more to prevent doing it again.

At the same time, my changed behavior/attitude after this weekend has fostered some change in him. Unfortunately, it's not anything that I want or appreciate, but things that he wants. So my attitude has simply given him the comfort to resume getting his needs met. For example, he's taken to calling me during the day again, just to "check in." It's not my cup of tea, because he never has anything to share so either I have to "invent" something to talk about or we sit in silence. It's just weird for me. So even though I had asked him to stop, he started doing it again because it's something he likes. So when I change my behavior and give him something positive, he responds by "taking" more. It has always been this way and radar is up to prevent it from happening again. This is my difficulty with "being the change I want to see in my M." It only seems to go one way.

On a positive note, I'm really doing quite well emotionally. I'm still personally recharged, though my enthusiasm (hope) for my M has waned some. I'm at a complete loss on how to engage with my H in a healthy way, even at a fairly superficial level. It's frustrating for me, too, because I'm certain that an outsider looking in could probably see everything clearly, but from my POV, it's a big mystery.

[~ kd ~]

CV, my submission here is, you are too close to this.

IOW, you look at change in you as needing to directly translate into positive change you want in your H.

Right now, keep making positive changes for yourself, regardless of your H's reaction.

WRT your H, ignore the negative (which are only negatives to you, others may very well see his behaviour as positive) and encourage the positive (if and when it happens).

This is all about YOU and YOUR positive changes. Make it so. Gauge any results in the R in a month or so.

[Crazyville]

I hear you KD, isn't that all of our problems? We're too close, too involved, too emotional because it's all so personal. I see many times here when someone can give someone else advice to do something, while admitting they haven't done well with it themselves. It's always easier to see someone else's actions than your own. How to distance yourself enough to be able to see your own sitch is the mystery.

I will always work on myself in some form or fashion. I think that's as much an intentional thing we do (ie. I'm going to go take a class) as it is how we respond to life's events (ie. THAT hurt, I'll do that differently next time.) Daily living is full of opportunities to learn and improve if one is open to it.

I agree that other people might see H's actions as positive whereas I don't. Isn't that just because everyone is different? Some people are homebodies, others are very social. Neither is right or wrong, but it's hard to make the two opposing preferences jive.

The only thing I take issue with what you said is that it's all about me and my positive changes. KJM asked, "So I suppose part of the question is what is your part in the dynamic and how does that affect his behavior." There are two people in a M. It's hard to ignore the behavior of the other without removing oneself from the R entirely.

[AJM]

KD speaks wisdom but allow me to expand on that I wholeheartedly agree that you need to set a longer view time frame of "improvements" vs. looking at everything in a microscope. Forest for the trees sort of thing.

even though I did so very gently and politely. We talked for a while tonight and I asked him a similar question about how I could have handled it differently. It didn't go well. He just takes everything as criticism, which is not my intention and just makes me shut down more to prevent doing it again.

Who said you did it politely and gently? You? Pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Turn that the other way, and your H may have thought he was doing things "gently and positively" but you take it as...not. There's more to the dynamic and I really think you should work to answer the question of your part in the dynamic. You can easily see his part, but you are not seeing yours at this point. I suspect that's because the eyes look outward, no?

At the same time, my changed behavior/attitude after this weekend has fostered some change in him. Unfortunately, it's not anything that I want or appreciate, but things that he wants. So my attitude has simply given him the comfort to resume getting his needs met. For example, he's taken to calling me during the day again, just to "check in." It's not my cup of tea, because he never has anything to share so either I have to "invent" something to talk about or we sit in silence. It's just weird for me. So even though I had asked him to stop, he started doing it again because it's something he likes. So when I change my behavior and give him something positive, he responds by "taking" more. It has always been this way and radar is up to prevent it from happening again. This is my difficulty with "being the change I want to see in my M." It only seems to go one way.

I'm sorry you see it that way, but your posts suggest that is not the case. It's not what you want or appreciate? What is it you WANT and APPRECIATE? Honesty. What does that look like? Your version of honesty or can it be different than you WANT and still be honest? Loyalty? What would make you think your imperfect H is loyal to you? Seriously? What would that be?

Trust. Yep, that's a common one. Why can't your H trust you? Why can't you trust him? Not what you "feel" at the moment, but really why? What would he have to do to gain your trust? What do you have to do to gain his to the point he can be emotionally, physically, and spiritually honest with you? Why are you both hiding behind a "wall"? Hmm...?

On a positive note, I'm really doing quite well emotionally. I'm still personally recharged, though my enthusiasm (hope) for my M has waned some. I'm at a complete loss on how to engage with my H in a healthy way, even at a fairly superficial level. It's frustrating for me, too, because I'm certain that an outsider looking in could probably see everything clearly, but from my POV, it's a big mystery.

I think you are at a loss to see how to engage. But from my POV, you don't really have the answers for you, yet you are hoping he'll find a way to "magically" meet your needs. That's interesting to me as an outsider because I do see it differently. Very.

I think something else to note: your relationship dynamic is changed. You are currently holding the power in the relationship yet you want things of him. As a Christian, I find that backwards but totally human. (I only share this next part as a way of showing a different perspective and how I've seen it) I went through much of that as well with my ex. I contorted myself to great extremes and became so twisted trying to save my marriage, I didn't recognize me. I wasn't authentic to my own needs and feelings. If I was on a daily basis, I'd have kicked her out when she cheated on me and not looked beyond that.
It's a struggle that's hard to see when you're living it moment by moment. But a lot of that had to do with the dynamic. Knowing the "actions" didn't help much. Knowing the cause did and does even now when I'm required to deal with her. She doesn't seem to have figured it out, and may never. That saddens me because she is prone to repeat that pattern until she does. Her way of coping was to blame me for everything, want me to "magically" figure it all out and "save" her. It's common when trying to extricate oneself from a relationship. When one is too scared or hurt to open up and trust again, it's pretty much impossible to change the dynamic. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy if you let it.

What I'm getting at is that figuring out what you need to be able to trust is important - accepting what he is or accepting the changes he is working on etc. Accepting that he doesn't yet "get it" as to what you want, but is working on it (even if you don't fully understand what you want in regards to trust, just that you want it). Or whatever it takes for you to trust him, I suggest you figure that out sooner than later. Figure out what you need to be able to trust him and then work towards it on a monthly basis, not daily. It's not about actions. He may be trying what the C suggests because he WANTS the R to work regardless of what it looks like later. He is not necessarily happy with the status quo either, but that doesn't mean he knows how to change it in this situation. Know the motives. Don't guess what they are, know them - you'll always be wrong when you guess.

I can tell you that having a relationship with somebody else, if things can't be worked out, won't be any different after a short period of time. There will always be a reason for you to understand what you need to trust your spouse. There will always be a reason for you to learn to accept things as they are. There will always be a reason for you to be able to communicate with your spouse in a way your spouse can understand and not how you want to be communicated with. Always. You have a spouse that wants to make it work. A spouse you love, and have loved for a long time. Figure out how that trust can be restored and make it realistic and possible. You won't regret doing that. You won't regret guessing what he is thinking or his motives. His motive is clear WRT him working on the relationship. But you need to make it possible.

Peace,
AJ

[Crazyville]

It's not what you want or appreciate? What is it you WANT and APPRECIATE? Honesty. What does that look like? Your version of honesty or can it be different than you WANT and still be honest?

Honesty can definitely vary from my definition. It's probably as highly debated as forgiveness. But if you're asking me what I WANT, then it has to match my definition, otherwise it's not what I want. This seems kind of obvious to me so perhaps I'm not understanding your question. Loyalty is in the same category, I believe.

Trust. Yep, that's a common one. Why can't your H trust you? Why can't you trust him? Not what you "feel" at the moment, but really why? What would he have to do to gain your trust? What do you have to do to gain his to the point he can be emotionally, physically, and spiritually honest with you? Why are you both hiding behind a "wall"? Hmm...?

I think the biggest issue for me here is that when I explain to him that he did something that hurt my feelings, his response always begins with, "I know, but...(defend, defend, defend.)" So maybe the truth is that I CAN trust him, but I can trust him to continue to do the same things that hurt me before because he doesn't see it as a problem. That doesn't foster intimacy and safety.

In its most simplistic form, if he says he'll do something, he needs to do it. He acknowledges that matching his actions to his words is a big problem for him, has been as long as he can remember. Thurs night, I said in a lighthearted way that I'd give him a dollar if he'd check S12's homework because I was so tired and needed to go to bed. He said he would. Friday morning it was unchecked, he had forgotten. This was not a mistake, this is a way of life with him. Is this unclear somehow? Is this unreasonable? Expecting too much?

Could you please expound upon the actions vs. cause?

What motives? His? Mine?