New to DB and Clearly Oblivious to My "Horrible" M

[NickB]

Journaling and potential pieces for 180s revealing themselves:

W started a relationship talk last night that potentially offers a few new clues to me for potential 180s. I say potentially because some of the things she mentioned contradicted each other so I am not sure if she was just throwing things out to get reactions or if she was trying to tell me something and didn't know how.

Over the course of the conversation we covered a lot of ground. Most of it anger filled but some of the highlights are below which I could use some help deciphering.

The conversation started with her saying that she does not see things getter better between us and she is tired if trying to hard and pretending everything is OK. I tried to validate by recognizing that she sounded frustrated and I understood why she would feel that way. Wen I asked her to tell me more about the frustration she is feeling she said that in two weeks there has been no changes made between us. She sees me as being happy and living life and acting like what is happening between us doesn't matter. To her this is pretending and she doesn't want to pretend.

I tried my best to validate but didn't want to confirm we are pretending anything so I could only offer that it sounds like the last few weeks have been confusing. She said that she was expecting more change between us but she just isn't feeling any different after two weeks of trying.

W also mentioned that she is disappointed that I have not been doing little things for her like bringing her coffee in the morning, or showing that I am thinking of her in any way. I validated her feelings, but internally and puzzled because I dont want to show signs of pursuit.

She then said she was disappointed that I have not made any big overture of any type. I started to slide off DB'ing and mentioned that she wanted space and time and I thought any types of overtures would bring too much pressure or presumption into the relationship at this point. I also mentioned that I understood if she was disappointed, but the last MC session we had she specifically said she wanted to make the next move in the relationship which would be a plan to spend alone time together -- perhaps dinner. I did not want to push this because she was very specific when the MC asked her the question: "Do you want H or W to plan this. She said she wanted to to ensure I had no expectations. She then said that I blew a great opportunity for some type of overture and she shouldn't have to teach me what she wants. I should just know. The OM knew without asking.

I am grasping onto DB at this point and not getting upset or raising my voice but internally I am puzzled.

She also said I am making her decisions easier by not choosing to move into the basement as she requested. Again I validated her feelings here but mentioned that I was not interested in leaving the relationship or the bedroom. Thi sonly enraged the situation further.The venom usually starts with statements such as:

- I have wasted 6.5 years of my life in this M and am tired of trying. (note, several weeks ago this quote used to reference 2 years, then it changed to 5 years, then to 6 and now to 6.5. It is progressing in the wrong direction -- or what I would consider the wrong direction anyway)

- You have a job and health insurance. I have nothing to my name and cannot even support my own kids.

- You are making the decision to divorce easier by not moving down to the basement.

- I can see you are going to make this D hard on us. (note, we went several weeks without the mention of D and I heard this 4 times in the span of this one conversation).

Here is where DB'ing has run flat for me -- or perhaps where I am not practicing it correctly. When I listen and try to validate the anger and disappointment at this point, she sees it as condescending and tells me to stop all the "psychiatric BS." I need to find a new way to validate or new words to use.

She called me ignorant and left the room.

I will note that in our many years together I cannot think of a time where my W resorted to name calling of any kind. I was caught off guard. Not because it hurt because this is one comment I didnt take personally and know she is angry, but strange the end felt like a 2 minute fight between teenagers.

I am puzzled on some 180s but somewhere in here are some clues for me.

[labug]

OK, I'm going off the reservation here but I think there is more going on in your sitch.

If she was a very close family member, not your wife, who you saw changing drastically and seemingly floundering, what would you say to them?

[NickB]

If she was a very close family member, not your wife, who you saw changing drastically and seemingly floundering, what would you say to them?

I would tell them I was terribly worried about them and want desperately to help them in any way I can. I would offer to help them research any medical issues and help them find the support they needed.

[NickB]

Thrilled that my MC just called with a last minute cancellation that my W and I can use this evening. At least we will not go another two weeks without this meeting. He has been very good for us so far and has slowly begun to get her to open up while we are in the room together.

Dont want to get my hopes up, but just having these sessions has been helpful to me so there is always a chance to learn more.

[tori2012]

NickB, as long as the sessions seem to be helping, keep going. But never stick with a MC who makes you feel worse.

You're doing the right thing by being patience. I see that you have three really young kids, which can put a lot of strain on a M. Lots of stress. Your W seems to be angry, and blinded by her emotions. Give her space. Don't take what she says too seriously. She's trying to hurt you bc she's hurting inside...

[NickB]

Tori, thank you for your comments and support. Both pieces are great advice. I appreciate you taking time to help me on this.

[AnotherStander]

She sees me as being happy and living life and acting like what is happening between us doesn't matter. To her this is pretending and she doesn't want to pretend.

First, great job on the DB'ing because she is telling you that she has noticed your PMA!! That's awesome news! Her negative reaction to it is completely normal, so don't be concerned. It is going to take months before she accepts that this is real and you're not just "pretending" in an effort to get her back. Just keep up the DB'ing and give her time to accept it. She may also be angry because you didn't do this before, it's common for a WAS to ask why you waited until it was "too late" to make these changes. Just keep responding like you did- validate but don't reason/ argue/ explain/ etc.

W also mentioned that she is disappointed that I have not been doing little things for her like bringing her coffee in the morning, or showing that I am thinking of her in any way. I validated her feelings, but internally and puzzled because I dont want to show signs of pursuit.

If she is asking for it then do it. Yes it could be pursuit, but in your case she is specifically requesting it. So do it and monitor the results. If it drives her farther away you can always stop later. Sorry if this has been discussed already, but have you read 5LL? It sounds to me like she's telling you to show her love through her PLL. Take advantage of it!

- I have wasted 6.5 years of my life in this M and am tired of trying. (note, several weeks ago this quote used to reference 2 years, then it changed to 5 years, then to 6 and now to 6.5. It is progressing in the wrong direction -- or what I would consider the wrong direction anyway)

Right out of the WAS handbook.

- You are making the decision to divorce easier by not moving down to the basement.

Chapter 17 of the WAS handbook- "how to guilt your spouse into doing the things you don't have the balls to do yourself".

- I can see you are going to make this D hard on us. (note, we went several weeks without the mention of D and I heard this 4 times in the span of this one conversation).

That's because it's her heaviest hammer, and since your DB'ing is resulting in a happy, content you when she was expecting a rude, raging you she's trying to hit you with it harder now. The more you continue with the PMA the more confused and angry she will get, but stick with it and eventually she'll realize that the "you" she believes made her life miserable doesn't really exist, or not anymore.

When I listen and try to validate the anger and disappointment at this point, she sees it as condescending and tells me to stop all the "psychiatric BS." I need to find a new way to validate or new words to use.

No you don't! It's working! If it wasn't working then the two of you would have been screaming at each other which is EXACTLY what she wants right now, because she wants you to give her reasons to hate you. Just be patient and keep at it!

I will note that in our many years together I cannot think of a time where my W resorted to name calling of any kind. I was caught off guard. Not because it hurt because this is one comment I didnt take personally and know she is angry, but strange the end felt like a 2 minute fight between teenagers.

Again, she WANTS you to get angry and fight with her. Because that's a person she can easily leave. But a kind, warm person is not so easily left. It confuses the heck out of her, it throws a wrench into her plans.

[sandi2]

W started a relationship talk last night that potentially offers a few new clues to me for potential 180s.

Here's a tip....when there has not been significant progress in the MR, and the W initiates a R talk....it usually means a negative message for the H.

I say potentially because some of the things she mentioned contradicted each other so I am not sure if she was just throwing things out to get reactions or if she was trying to tell me something and didn't know how.

Nick, she's not doing this to get a reaction from you. Neither is she trying to tell you something that she doesn't know how. LBH's seem to think along this line, but it's not so. She's throwing all this stuff at you b/c she's building her case. That's why she contradicts some things. She wants out of the D. She knows she needs to have reasons for wanting to D you. You want to know the reasons. You don't even know what 180's to do b/c of lack of reasons she had given. The MC wants to know the reasons behind her wanting to D. Her sister wants to know why, and I'm sure your W feels that several people would want to know. Therefore, she's grasping at whatever straws she can find. But they are not valid reasons for a D.

The conversation started with her saying that she does not see things getter better between us and she is tired if trying to hard and pretending everything is OK. I tried to validate by recognizing that she sounded frustrated and I understood why she would feel that way. Wen I asked her to tell me more about the frustration she is feeling she said that in two weeks there has been no changes made between us. She sees me as being happy and living life and acting like what is happening between us doesn't matter. To her this is pretending and she doesn't want to pretend.

First of all, were the two of you in a mutual agreement that you are (have been the past two weeks) actually "working" on the M? Did either of you tell the MC that you are/would actively work on the R? If yes, what have you seen her do that would be considered working toward a better R? Unless you count her being in a better mood a time or two, do you have any idea? If not, then that only leaves the "pretense" she refers to. Which, btw, is a common argument that WAW's use as a platform for wanting the so-called "work" to end.....b/c she doesn't really feel any love, therefore, it's all pretending and she just can't be hypocritical about it.

I tried my best to validate but didn't want to confirm we are pretending anything so I could only offer that it sounds like the last few weeks have been confusing.

You can't validate what you know is untrue! I don't believe those type of statements should receive any validation, b/c she isn't looking for it, she's building her case.

She said that she was expecting more change between us but she just isn't feeling any different after two weeks of trying.

And....it's all about her feelings. The WAW will base almost everything on her "feelings". She makes her decisions according to what she feels about it.

Truth is, you have to do the work....THEN the feelings can start to return, but if she's not even trying and especially if she's got her mind on another man.....she isn't going to feel any different.

W also mentioned that she is disappointed that I have not been doing little things for her like bringing her coffee in the morning, or showing that I am thinking of her in any way.

Oh, here it comes. She adds this for good measure. How you have failed! She's disappointed? Really? Don't you buy a word of that stuff.

I validated her feelings, but internally and puzzled because I dont want to show signs of pursuit.

Again, be careful about validating her when she makes statements like this.

She then said she was disappointed that I have not made any big overture of any type. I started to slide off DB'ing and mentioned that she wanted space and time and I thought any types of overtures would bring too much pressure or presumption into the relationship at this point. I also mentioned that I understood if she was disappointed, but the last MC session we had she specifically said she wanted to make the next move in the relationship which would be a plan to spend alone time together -- perhaps dinner. I did not want to push this because she was very specific when the MC asked her the question: "Do you want H or W to plan this. She said she wanted to to ensure I had no expectations. She then said that I blew a great opportunity for some type of overture and she shouldn't have to teach me what she wants. I should just know. The OM knew without asking.

Fascinating, isn't it? She tells the MC that she plainly wants it understood and that she would be ensured that you have no expectations.........but now she's expressing how disappointed she is that you did not take the opportunity to make some grand overture!

But then she shows how messed up she really is when she says she shouldn't have to tell you what she wants, that you should just know. If she was 14, it might not have sound so immature and irrational. Only in those romantic novels does the hero automatically know what the woman is thinking and desiring....and he knows exactly what to do for her! Those men only live in those type of stories b/c in real life, they don't have a clue if the woman doesn't tell him what is what with her. You can't validate stupid!

Sadly, she gets to her real problem at the end......when she refers to OM. And, that's always a good way to push the knife a little further in the H's heart.

She also said I am making her decisions easier by not choosing to move into the basement as she requested.

Typical. This is as good as the WAW using the excuse, "I was about to reconsider leaving--but now you've really messed up and now I know it can never work out". That one of the more popular things they can say.

Again I validated her feelings here but mentioned that I was not interested in leaving the relationship or the bedroom. Thi sonly enraged the situation further.

If there is ever another one of these type talks....don't try to validate her and explain your feelings. Just turn and walk away. There is no win in that type of conversation. Her plan was to make you out to be the bad guy. It's all your fault, and that's why the M has failed.

Here is where DB'ing has run flat for me -- or perhaps where I am not practicing it correctly. When I listen and try to validate the anger and disappointment at this point, she sees it as condescending and tells me to stop all the "psychiatric BS." I need to find a new way to validate or new words to use.

She knows when you are quoting somebody else. She probably knows that you've been reading and searching for help....and this is one of the techniques. I would be angry, too. I does make a woman feel like you are patronizing when she's telling you these kind of things and you attempt to "validate" but it comes across much like an adult trying to get a kid to calm down. I would suggest that you not worry over finding new words to validate her. I'm not trying to go against MWD principles. I see so many H's having problems with validating to the place it seems to make things harder for him.

I will note that in our many years together I cannot think of a time where my W resorted to name calling of any kind. I was caught off guard. Not because it hurt because this is one comment I didnt take personally and know she is angry, but strange the end felt like a 2 minute fight between teenagers.

Yep, and you may see her get much worse. She's throwing a fit to get what she wants. Looks really bad when it comes from an adult.

Don't let this puzzle you! This is not the girl you married! Don't even compare her to the one you M.

[keep_going]

Nick,

I just want to stop by and show some support. After reading about your exchange with your W and Sandy2's comments, I can tell you that my H and I had a lot of the same type of conversations when he left and was trying to justify doing so, so you are not alone in this.

Sandi2 - thanks for your comments to Nick - even after all this time, I had actually believed a lot of things he said to me and just reading your post now has made me realize that perhaps I was not as crazy as I thought. Specially re. the following:

Typical. This is as good as the WAW using the excuse, "I was about to reconsider leaving--but now you've really messed up and now I know it can never work out". That one of the more popular things they can say.

My H did this ^^^^ twice to me and it has probably been the most devastating thing he has said to me in all of this (in addition to saying that I will never change.) It happened at the end of a bad argument. Up until that point, he had never indicated that there was any hope and I had been trying so hard to change and prove to him that our R could be different. So when he said it I felt like with my arguing, I had just blown my chances and re-set things back to zero. I blamed myself for so long and could just not forgive myself for "blowing" it.

H has told me several times since then that he has never had doubts about leaving. So I thought either he was lying or I was going crazy because of the whole "about to reconsider" comments. Now I know it was all just script and that probably he is actually being honest about never really reconsidering, but was just building his case or alleviating his guilt. At least now I know I am not crazy or imagining things.

Nick, I don't mean to hijack. I just wanted to see how you are not alone and hope you can learn from my experience and how our spouses' words can make us feel like we are going crazy if we let them.

She knows when you are quoting somebody else. She probably knows that you've been reading and searching for help....and this is one of the techniques. I would be angry, too. I does make a woman feel like you are patronizing when she's telling you these kind of things and you attempt to "validate" but it comes across much like an adult trying to get a kid to calm down.

My H once also got upset when I tried to validate accusing me of patronizing him. I can see that because I was using DB language that was foreign to our past interactions. I still don't know how to go around that, I just try to convey my honesty when I am validating.

Nick - Stay strong and focused. This is so hard, but you have support here and people who are cheering you on!

[labug]

kg, I was actually hoping you would stop by here. Have you read the whole thread?