WAS vs. LBS

[Accuray]

Thumbs up CV, I'm rooting for you!

[AJM]

I'm impressed CV. I'm also a little worried. I see a dramatic change in your posts/thoughts. That's both impressive and worrisome at the same time to me. But it also highlights what I was trying to tell you about perspective vs. view. Your attitude seems to have changed and in turn your perspective on things did too. I think that's a key.

There's a thought process amongst counselors that says that if you deal with your perspective first, your problems seem much more easily dealt with. They become less of a mountain and more of a mole hill. That carries through to marriage as well. If you work on the connection, then you can both deal with the issues in a less panicked state of mind

I think it would be a good thing for you to plan more of the getaways. More chances to recharge.

As for this:

How do I make it SAFE FOR ME to venture back in?

Work at it. Know that it doesn't just happen, but you have to work on it. Always remember that there are two imperfect people that WANT to work it out in the best way possible. You want your husband to be strong, but you want to be independent - oops - self sufficient. You may be surprised that he wants both as well, but may see himself as the leader in the relationship. When he doesn't feel that way, he may get confused and "act out". That all happens at a very deep level because we can be wired that way. From your posts, I think that's a possible part of the dynamic.

I believe in the idea about dealing with the connection of man and wife before dealing with the issues, communication, etc. That makes a lot more sense to me than the mechanics and it would be more honest in many aspects.

In short, I don't think it's the actions that will help you answer your questions. I don't think it's a recipe concocted by a bunch of experts that look scientifically at the problem and make broad suggestions for how to handle things. I think the divorce rate would back me up on that belief. I think a good honest connection and a reality based approach to imperfections of each other would be more beneficial at this point. You do seem to be understanding that neither of you is perfect and that each of you contributes to the dynamic. I can say I don't like his way of dealing with the dynamic, but that's not to say he won't change his ways. He will. So will you, but if you come to terms with each others imperfections and make strides to meet each others needs, you won't feel so empty, without hope, and like all is lost.

Be the change, CV. Find those places in your life that fulfill you that your H never was meant to. Your friends. It's why they are there. And pick those carefully as they will influence you greatly.

When the time is right and your connection is stronger, you'll be able to deal with the issues that need to be dealt with. You don't need to fix everything and you can't. It's not your place in this world. Your place is to fix you and be you and work on your relationship with your H and family. He obviously cares and wants to make it work with YOU even if he doesn't express it in the best way all the time. I think if you do it this way, you'll find your confusion lessens too

Peace!

AJ

[Crazyville]

That's both impressive and worrisome at the same time to me.

What is worrisome to you?

[Soul.Searching]

I'm so happy for you CV. Keep low expectations at first. Baby steps, to where you want to be.

[AJM]

Hi CV. Curious question: Do you read much? Who are some of your favorite authors? Seems an odd question, but let me know and I'll go on.

It's worrisome to me because it seems your perspective is heavily influenced by how you feel at the moment. When you are recharged, you see things differently. When you are worn down, you see the same things another way. I don't know that you've seen that yet and know what to do about it. That's what I see that worries me.

That's totally aside from what you husband does or doesn't do because that's a lesson you'll have to learn regardless of what you and your H come to. But it's obvious to me that you both care deeply about each other. It's obvious to me that perspective, for you both, is a key part of the confusion.

Does that make sense?

Peace,
AJ

[Crazyville]

Thanks, everyone, for stopping in. I'm going to try to play catch-up on the posts while I have a few minutes.

Regretful, open communication has not been a problem for me. Except perhaps too much. H's response is always "I know, but...." I'm willing to let him step up, I just don't know if he knows where the "plate" is.

Lostsoul13, I'm sorry your W is not more communicative. I know guys aren't mind-readers. No one is. I would say I have spoken to H like this. It doesn't really seem to change anything.

keep_going, I think it was a combination of investigating my own deep feelings and the trip. To your question of being vulnerable, I don't think that's a problem for me. I tend to be pretty open, like on here. I do find myself reining in a bit with my friends, but only because I don't want them to be burdened because I'm *always* talking about my M.

KD, I don't think I created a safe environment. The "environment" is exactly the way it was. That's why I'm so fearful of going back in.

AJ, I'd love to plan a getaway EVERY weekend. That's not likely to happen. I will work to find some things closer to home. To your points:
- it's tough to separate the connection from the issues. The connection is made through activities/discussions and that's when the issues arise.
- H does not feel like a leader. He feels like he SHOULD be. His internal conflict with this comes out in our M, and in a bad way.
- You seem confident that H will change. I wish I was. H hasn't changed anything in 18 years. He would agree with that statement, saying "change is HARD."
- I can work to get my needs met elsewhere. The problem is defining what needs H IS SUPPOSED to fill. I still have an image of what a H is supposed to be, and it IS NOT a knight in shining armor. It's something much more realistic than that. There were several lists posted in the last few weeks that I completely concur with. Based upon what he has been to me in the past, if I discovered I had a terminal illness, I wouldn't even bother to tell him and would seek comfort/assistance instead from a BFF.
- I do read, a variety, from novels to self-help to Christian study. I don't read "authors." Most times, I couldn't tell you who the author was.
- I would agree that "mood" has a definite impact on my outlook. I don't think that's uncommon. I don't make decisions based upon the "mood of the moment," except for things like what I wear for the day (ie. dressy or comfortable.)

So hopefully I addressed the key points.

Just a quick update. H had another counseling session last night. He offered some feedback on what was discussed. The counselor spent some time on a lot of different things, like what his childhood was like and if he has trouble focusing. He seems to be doing a lot of data-gathering right now, and not offering a whole lot of feedback. He did say that by this point in his life, H should be a "mentor" not a "mentee." He also took issue with the fact that H frequently uses the phrase "I should." This is something our previous counselor pointed out as well (I guess, I suppose, sort of, maybe, etc.), that H doesn't really take ownership of anything and has no personal boundaries. I'm curious as to where the counselor is going to go with that, since it didn't "take" before.

I appreciate his sharing because it gives me some insight as to what is going on or what is being worked. He keeps trying to get me to go with him, but I'm refusing. H is even better at deflecting than I am. I don't want his personal counseling to become M counseling. I would be willing to help, minimally, but if H doesn't take ownership of HIS problems, then bringing me into it won't do either of US any good.

[Soul.Searching]

It sounds like he is making progress. Maybe you could go to MC on top of his IC?

[Crazyville]

I would be willing to go to MC with him later, but not now. We've done MC our whole M. It doesn't ever "take" with him. Most times, he doesn't even remember what was discussed. So I will, but only after it looks like he's made some personal progress. Otherwise I feel like it would be a waste of time again.

[Accuray]

CV if I were you I would meet with H's counselor separately, without him there. There are undoubtedly sides to H he is unaware of or unwilling to share that the counselor would benefit from understanding. Would also be good for the counselor to know where you are in this relationship so that their suggestions and expectations for H are reasonable.

I would just offer to go in and talk to C for the purpose of helping H, not to help you, or to help the two of you. Does that make sense? I really do think that would be immensely valuable to the counselor and by extension to H.

[Crazyville]

I'm finding myself much more aware of when and how things start to "go bad." So now I'm trying to intercept them before it crashes and burns. At the same time, I'm trying to figure them out beforehand to prevent them in the first place.

H called a bit ago. Pleasant enough convo at first, but it took a turn when he made a comment about his daughter, how it appears she doesn't have a problem with debt because when she needed new tires recently, she just bought a whole new car. So a car loan is not a big deal to her. H and I have always believed in paying cash for cars, at least until the last one he bought where he took out a home equity loan without asking me (we have an equity account with checks for emergency only. Zero balance.)

So I realize I probably shouldn't have said anything. But I did. I said I'm not a car-payment person, but lots of people are, and that apparently even he didn't have a problem with them based upon his last car, so I didn't understand his issue with her. (She's over 30, employed, self-sufficient, etc.) The point of my question was intended to find out more about his position on her (was she sinking, asking to borrow money, not feeding her children, etc.?)

So he started defending his car loan, saying that it was different because it was only $200/month for a year. Well that simply wasn't true. I said his car was NOT $2400. We argued back and forth a couple of times, then he admitted that it was for 3 years, and that he only financed half. Normally I would have tried to point out to him how his statement about his daughter was hypocritical but I didn't.

So I ended the convo pretty abruptly because that's my M.O. at this point. But it left me feeling like I don't like him very much. It's a residual of the feelings I had prior to the weekend. It isn't bad, but just disappointing. I have a big problem with him (or anyone) criticizing someone else for the same behaviors that they do, but when they do it, it's somehow "different." I remember a GF doing this years ago. She cut off someone in traffic, then flipped them off, then 30 seconds later was absolutely appalled that someone cut her off. I only remember it because it was all so dramatic and shocking. It's the same thing. "Do as I say, not as I do."

Admittedly, I'm not one to keep my mouth shut. When I was voting last week, two men got in a verbal altercation. One called the other an @ss, then the other called him a pri@k. It went back and forth like a couple of kids. At first I couldn't tell if they were just kidding, it was so absurd. After watching their facial expressions and body language for a few seconds and determining they were serious, I loudly told them to knock it off, that their behavior was completely inappropriate, that it was a public place and a church, no less. They quit and I went back to my ballot. No one else said or did anything, though I'm certain they witnessed it.

With my friends, I've always felt a little more liberty and prefer the same from them. No one but friends and family know you better, and no one can be more honest. So if I see something, I call them on it, and occasionally they'll do the same with me. H is not one of them. He does not want to be called on anything, and he only comments on people behind their backs.

I KNOW I'm not the only one that deals with this. So what do YOU do? The behavior just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.