Back to Square One?

[Wendylon]

I do feel like you and I are in very similar situations, except I had 2 EAs and am wearing a scarlet letter. But I definitely empathise with you and your feelings around being rejected by H.

I am definitely vulnerable to EAs and I'm sure I would have had a PA during H's PA years ago if it weren't for the fact that the guy (an exbf) who I went to our College reunions with doesn't sleep with married women (though he was tempted and so was I). The fact that I don't have a scarlet letter is purely circumstantial. I don't feel that I hold any higher moral ground in that regard. Even as recently as yesterday, a guy I shared a table with in a cafe was chatting with me and it occurred to me that I'd be tempted if he were to suggest that we meet again.

When he snapped your underwear, what did you do? I'm always getting advice to "be flirty" with H although I never take it because that's not what he goes for (he's got some sort of madonna/whore complex going on).

How funny, my H also has a thing going on with that. He hates it when women try to look sexy so he doesn't go in for make-up, high heels, sexy underwear... It's just as well because I don't go in for all of that either. It would be a real turn-off for him if I tried to seduce him in a flirty/overtly sexy way.

When he snapped the elastic on my underwear, I responded with fake indignation and said "How rude!". It was all done in a jokey way and D15 was in the kitchen too so I wonder if it was partly to show off to her somehow.

Agree with FY on maybe having a chat with him, but try to set it up for a time when he'll be receptive. All you can do is give him your true feelings, and he can't argue with that (although mine finds a way to, saying 'that's how you feel now, but it's opposite from what you said three years ago' (I can't win)).

My H can certainly use my feelings against me. I think it would be virtually impossible for that sort of convo to go well at the moment. If I express any negative feelings, even if I phrase it carefully as being about me, H sees it as a sneaky way of having a go at him and blaming him. He turns the convo around so that he's the victim. Over the years, we have had many such convos and he responds along the following lines, "Once again, you're not happy with me; you're never happy; I'm sorry I'm not up to your standards, I wish you better luck with your next man; I've had it with your complaints; you're impossible; I'm the one who feels hurt by you on a daily basis so maybe now you know how I've felt our whole M...." I think H would need to be feeling good about himself and maybe scared of losing me at the same time for him to respond well. Usually, he just gets angry, defensive and blaming.

Having said that, I know there may be a time for that sort of convo but I haven't found it yet.

Seriously though, if you express some of these feelings to him, it might help clear the air. You could start with, "H, when you leave the table while I am still eating, it hurts my feelings. I'd like to spend more time with you over dinner." In my sitch, I always get pushback immediately but it does seem to sink in later. I would say, maybe start with a very small thing that's not confrontational and see how he responds to it. Remember, experiment and monitor results!

Yes, I think you're right that I'd have to do it with tiny things. I did ask him tonight to stay for a few minutes to discuss The Good Wife after we finished our episode. He did and it was just a few minutes but it made a difference to how I felt. That little experiment went well.

All he had to do was look for their leashes and realize that the leashes were gone. I mean, I've got some crafty pups but they're not crafty enough to take their leashes when they run away!

That could definitely be my H. For someone who is supposedly intelligent, I'm often struck by how incredibly dim he seems. It really is as if he's operating without a full deck. Sometimes even he is aware of it and blames it on his youthful experimenting with drugs. He has been known to get our house confused with the next door house and try to enter it by putting his keys in the door.

His attention to detail is abysmal. Yesterday, he was complaining that we were out of milk again. From where I was sitting I could see 2 pints. I had to talk him through it so that he could eventually spot them. S13, with all his impairments, would have spotted the milk if that was what he was looking for.

Given his set of skills, it is no wonder that H has trouble with our relationship. The same can be said of me in completely different ways. Thank God for this board.

[Wendylon]

Will that bring you closer together or pull you farther apart?

Yeah, I thought so too.

Thank you, FY, for that reminder.

Michele has a section in the book on figuring out the best time where our spouse would be most receptive to our request(s). Timing is everything.

I need to work on timing. I'm pbly missing some times when H would be more receptive than others.

We both know one thing for sure, when he's baiting you is most certainly not a good time! Continue to avoid being drawn into this at all costs... you can't win.

So true. Thank you again for spelling it out.

I read your post and Regretful's just before going out with H for supper. We actually had a nice time. It was light-hearted and enjoyable. I'm sure that I wouldn't have managed that without this board. Today could easily have deteriorated into an ugly fight. I even think he did see his cousin because he did have some anecdotes about her. Maybe I was being paranoid...

I feel that I came close to some major backsliding today but avoided it thanks to the people and principles here. Thank you very much, all of you.

[tori2012]

Just caught up, and I'm happy to hear dinner went well. Now you can start your list of positives :-)

[Arsene]

Nice work over dinner Wendy. The next time you feel the way you felt, come back to this post and re-read it. In the end, you don't have to follow your moods/emotions, you can actually dictate them. Choose how you will feel and approach any situation. The way we look at people often changes them.

Cheers!

[labug]

Good on you, Wendy!

[ForeverYoung]

My H can certainly use my feelings against me. I think it would be virtually impossible for that sort of convo to go well at the moment. If I express any negative feelings, even if I phrase it carefully as being about me, H sees it as a sneaky way of having a go at him and blaming him. He turns the convo around so that he's the victim. Over the years...

Right, and this goes back to the cycle you and H have set-up, over the years.

He HATES feeling that I'm critical of him. He goes on about how in my eyes he can never get it right, how he's never felt loved by me, that I just don't get him and never will, that he's given up on me ever understanding him, etc... I feel that he tries my patience and then blames me for getting irritated with him.

He won't give you a chance to really get through to him until YOU break this cycle. (he could also break it, but right now isn't the slightest bit interested in doing so) The way it is now, his guard is always up because he perceives you as always criticizing him.

How long have you both worked at developing this cycle? Oh yeah, YEARS. I think it is reasonable to expect it to take a while to break. You have to change your part in this, and be patient. Stay on course!

Yes, I think you're right that I'd have to do it with tiny things. I did ask him tonight to stay for a few minutes to discuss The Good Wife after we finished our episode. He did and it was just a few minutes but it made a difference to how I felt. That little experiment went well.

Did you tell him how much you appreciated this? How much it meant to you? Reward positive behavior!

Com'on wendy, you've been around here before, you know these things take time to fix. Be patient. Instead of posting what he's doing wrong everyday, and hoping/waiting for HIM to change, take control of the only thing you can control... YOUR ACTIONS.

I promise, if you do it long enough he will notice and start to change.

Oh, and where do I sign up for that underware snapping game?

[mamabird]

Great job Wendy. From where I sit, it looks like you both want a better M but don't know how to get there. You are very stuck in these patterns. I agree that you will need to be the one to try to break them and it will take months.

Something that helped me early on was setting small goals for change. One of yours could be "He will stick around for 2 minutes to discuss The Good Wife." "He will stay at the dinner table until I finish." This will help you feel like you've had some success and will help you keep going.

One thing I'm trying to do is take inventory of the things I can live with and the things I can't live with. That might help you too as you go down the path. For me, I can tolerate most things, but not the punishing, not the emotional stonewalling. Think about this as you set your goals.

[ForeverYoung]

Something that helped me early on was setting small goals for change. One of yours could be "He will stick around for 2 minutes to discuss The Good Wife." "He will stay at the dinner table until I finish." This will help you feel like you've had some success and will help you keep going.

Or better still, make goals for YOU. Something like: "I will go one full day w/o criticizing him for anything" or "I will compliment him for one thing that he ‘got right’ everyday"

One thing I'm trying to do is take inventory of the things I can live with and the things I can't live with. That might help you too as you go down the path. For me, I can tolerate most things, but not the punishing, not the emotional stonewalling. Think about this as you set your goals.

This is very wise advice. Instead of trying to remake everything about him, (unlikey to happen) decide on your 2 or 3 MUST HAVES.

[tori2012]

Completely agree with Forever and LA. Changing old patterns/habits takes a while. I think awareness is key. Once you're aware of the patterns, you'll be able to ID the triggers, and stop the behavior that causes problem.

[Wendylon]

Thank you so much, Tori, Arsene, labug, FY and Regretful. You are such stars!! You are really helping.

I will write more tomorrow (and maybe even get to some positives ab H--Tori) but wanted to report recent convo while it is still fresh.

H: You know you've been really different recently, right? In a good way.
Me: Hmm?
H: Well, I'm trying to figure out why. I think it might be because you've been having more regular massages.
Me: Really? [I was thrown by that guess because I haven't been having more regular massages!]
H: It was so weird yesterday morning when I was running late and you didn't comment. You can't imagine how different it feels. Usually, you're so anxious about what I'm up to that there is no room for me. I actually started feeling stressed about being late myself. It was the most extraordinary thing.
Me: Hmm (in positive tone)

I then went up to see kids and then he called me down to watch The Good Wife and even stayed a few seconds before bolting out of the room. Said he was glad I'd ordered Season Three so we could carry straight on tomorrow. I asked if he could ferry D15 around tomorrow evening and he said he could. He's now retreated to his study and I probably won't see much of him until tomorrow.

As FY pointed out, it has taken us years to get here and will take time and awareness to break the cycle.

I still need to improve the WOA and praise. I recognised an actor from The Wire in The Good Wife and H said he thought it was one of the cops in The Wire. I responded enthusiastically with "Yeah, you're right!" That's small but I will try to show him he's right about something at least once a day.

I managed not to comment about the fact that he got me to repeat everything I said at some point this evening. Either he's going deaf or buys himself time by not really listening. Anyway, I just repeated. I also managed not to answer him impatiently when he asked where S17 was. He often asks me where the kids are when they are simply where you'd expect them to be. In this case, S17 was watching a film on his laptop in bed. When I said "In bed", H seemed really surprised. I didn't say, "Where else would you expect him to be at this time of night on a weekday?"

I'd say there was only one pretty small negative from me today. H forwarded me an email from S13's school saying we owed them for school lunches. I emailed H back saying that S13 doesn't have school lunches (we send him in with packed lunches). I didn't mean that H didn't realise that but I was sort of responding to the school's email through him. H emailed me back saying "I know S13 doesn't eat the school lunch". I emailed saying "I know you know". H thinks I treat him like a moron but that's because I can never count on what he knows/remembers or doesn't. I wasn't telling him that S13 doesn't eat school lunches this time. Anyway, given our history, I should have been a bit more careful in my wording.

I'm feeling less upset about H leaving me to finish my supper alone in the kitchen the other day. I noticed that H always leaves the kitchen first--as soon as he's finished his supper. His usual excuse is that he needs to floss his teeth. I think it's a bit of an ADD thing. Other things beckon. I don't think it is really personal to me. I don't take S13's actions personally when he says "Good bye, Mummy" when he wants me to leave him alone. I figure H's actions are a bit the same.

I booked a table at the new restaurant that H was raving about. They only occasionally do supper and I'd asked to be on the mailing list. I booked as soon as I got the email saying they were open this Friday for supper as I figured it would be sold out really quickly. I asked H if he wanted to go and he accepted enthusiastically. I was thinking to myself that I'd go with D15 if he was busy so I wasn't feeling too dependent on him.

I also suggested that we organise a Xmas get-together this year to thank S13's carers as it's two years since we've done it. H liked the idea. As for the moustache party, he told me on Sunday that he's not sure he wants to go anymore. He said the same friends were getting together a few days later and maybe that would be more fun. They'd be going to some Portuguese restaurant. I said that sounded fun and he seemed surprised and asked if I'd want to go. We'll see what happens.

Thank you again, all of you. I feel as if I have an army of coaches helping me to get and stay on track.