The Lure of the Siren

[Arsene]

Thanks guys,

I feel this debate is moving along in a very healthy way and I'm getting loads of great opinions and different perspectives. All of this is hugely helpful.

In dropping the rope the LBS is really releasing the WAS completely and saying "I'm no longer working on us, I'm working on me".

This is a good way of putting it. Difficult to do, but I can see how the subtlety would make a difference.

When I decide to pull back to help me detach and give wife time to miss me. How do I assess the progress on this?

You'd need to see her reaching out to you whether it's calling, emailing, texting or a mix of those. Pursuit.

These are things she has already been doing. I very rarely initiate contact. I guess I've been guilty of being overly available tough. This is what I'm working on now.

When I see W seemingly coming around and spending more time at home with me and D8, and inviting me out. Is this really progress in my sitch? Or should this better me that I'm becoming not care about that?

Yeah, that's definitely progress. But you have to celebrate those baby steps internally and continue DB'ing. Of course you care about it, but try not to show you care. It's the whole distance/ pursuit thing. You distance, she pursues. If you react too strongly to her pursuit then she goes back to distancing.

Hmmm, and this is where me pulling back right now might have a bigger impact than being overly available.

True, but there certainly is a time and place for taking the bolded path above. Like when the WAS is seriously threatening to start the D process. At this point "what works" is anything that stalls the D process and gives you a little time. Playing hard ball at the wrong time will only move you apart quicker.

I like to think I'm well past that point, and I really think Arsene is too. As far as I'm concerned my D has already been busted. I'm working on building a better marriage for us by working on me, and monitoring results. So, I'd say that "what works" is a process of constant adjustment.

I agree that I'm out of the danger zone for now but I unfortunately can't say my divorce has been busted yet. The absence of OM in your sitch is a good sign. Now you can afford to give her time. In my sitch, a lot more time might erode the respect my W has for me as Starsky and CB often suggest.

My question for you Arsene is, does your wife respect you? She is not likely to fall back in love with a man she doesn't respect. This is part of the bases for the CB approach. You stand up for yourself, set boundaries and stick to them, and she may start to show more respect for you and see you in a new light. Maybe even as a guy that will not wait around forever for her. I think this can be done without going dark though.

True. To this day, despite her actions, I think that she does respect me for my conviction and determination to do the right thing. I don't think she goes away thinking:"Sucker!". I truly believe that she is going through something beyond her control and that it's confusing her. Whether it's the addictive power of the affair or the new thrill of living a teenage life again, without responsibilities, something is holding her back. I hope that my pulling back now will help to get her unstuck.

I was happier than I had been in a long time (which he noticed) and I just believed and then KNEW that my future was bright.

A big part of me said "forget it. Why take the chance of being hurt again?" But I still loved him, though in a different way, and the kids did too, and I felt that all in all, trying to be an intact family after all the DB work I'd done, made sense. Forgiveness had mostly been achieved...

As for HIS view, his comments suggest that seeing

my confidence in MY future was intriguing...seeing that I was going to be fine sort of irked him but in a productive way...

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Yes, and this is the place I want to be. Where I'm happy again living my life for myself. This is the man W met back then and as it did for your husband, I think she would be intrigued by it. I read somewhere that you have to send the message:"Join me on my adventure" not "Come and be my adventure".

But that's all really here nor there -- my main point was people need a better set of criteria than "He/she seems to be nicer lately" to measure whether or not their efforts are "working." Because at best, it's a neutral piece of data, and at worst it's an intentional smoke-screen, as the wayward spouse is intentionally "nice" to the betrayed spouse in order to keep them in their proper place and to control them.

I would rather see someone define what "works" as "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?" or "Has he/she stalled their once-hot divorce process?" or "Has she/he reduced or eliminated their contact with OM/OW?" -- that sort of thing. Far to many people go by whether or not their being "nice" or being "angry" ... especially us classic conflict-avoiders.


Starsky

I agree with you that "He/she seems to be nicer lately" isn't a proper gauge that things are swinging back your way but in some situations these are the baby steps MWD is talking about and they might be the precursor of more dramatic changes. I think it's important to keep things in perspective. I my present sitch the "He/she seems to be nicer lately" doesn't affect me all that much anymore but at one time it was a sign that I was doing progress.

WRT "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?". What is a demonstrable move? Does it happen overnight or progressively? I never expected W to have a 180 turnaround (well, maybe I did a one time but that was foolish of me). It took a lot of thought and "guts" for her to decide to leave her family and it'll be the same for the way back. The first step towards "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?". might just be "He/she seems to be nicer lately"

Michele talks about this on pp. 122-123 of "Divorce Remedy," when she talks about the "Nice Guy" approach. I think some people would be stunned to read what she wrote about it, and should look it up.

Starsky

Good point Starsky. I don't think this is something that can be faked. You have to be there and to do this you need to detach. You need to stop caring about the outcome, or to visualize a different outcome. I'm working on this mate.

Hmmm, I don't know. I think if it were me on a fast track to file due to issues I had with my spouse, her trying to pull the rug out from under me with some tough love technique would only speed up my determination to continue. Maybe that's just me, and again, I don't beleive Arsene is in this tense position anyway.

I'm not FY, but things can change in a "NY minute" as Denver often says. At the point where I am now, if it happened and I found myself in that situation again, I might just go that way, perhaps as a last ditch attempt at swinging her around. Mind you, it's impossible to tell how I would react in that context.

Now I don't recommend starting fights of course, but I do try to not hold in any discontent any longer. I also "choose my battles" wisely.

I think this is key. I have put my foot down on a few issues which were important to me and somehow, more under my control, and yes, I have seen these rewarded by my W's acknowledgement if not renewed respect. There is no point starting a battle you can not win. You have to make sure that, strategically, you are in a better position than your opponent. Otherwise, you end up in a "charge of the light brigade" scenario. Lots of glory, lots of respect but still defeated.

I'm sick as a dog right now Arsene, so I apologize for my brief replies.

I get what you are doing. I really do.

The Plan A/Plan B thing is a perfectly acceptable way to go about this. The concern from my end though is that your W loses respect for you because you do seem okay with her having OM. A secondary concern for me is that you fall too much into a 'friend zone'.

You are certainly in Plan A right now. But even the author of the book who coined that term states that you should only be there temporarily.

Eventually, you HAVE to move into Plan B.

I hope you get better soon mate. I know what you mean. There was a time for being friends and I hope we have achieved this but now, do I want to stagnate there? The question here is how long is temporary?

I respect you for sticking to doing what you want to do mate, I just think you are keeping yourself trapped in a cycle of hurt and emotional cruelty, that won't be broken unless something changes it.

Thanks Bill. I understand what you are saying and I see exactly where I need to go. As you pointed out, the advice on this thread is loud and clear and pretty consistent. The only variable in our opinions seems to be the timing.

I think it's pretty much agreed that we can't just fake it. That it has to be heartfelt for it to be credible. Unfortunately, this all depends on the individual and the situation. What is my threshold? How much of this can I take? I'm not sure yet but I can feel things changing in me.

As 25 states, I'm still young at this DB thing, relatively, so my timeline of December to re-assess things would only put me at 7 months (disregarding of course the 2 years since EA, after which we seemed to be working on things together). What will I do in December? Who knows what state of mind I'll be in? I'm living it day by day for now and trying not to get ahead of myself. I don't need tomorrow's problems today.

Wow, this WAS a marathon. Thanks so much for your continued support my friends. This thread has taken on a life of its own and I really appreciate your contributions. It's helping me define my thoughts more clearly.