WAS vs. LBS

[DaddyLongShanks]

Thanks, AJ. I'm still not a saint. If I were, I'd give him his maintenance sex.

And therein lies the other half of the problem: ME.

I have concerns about me and what I'm capable of, or better said, what I might not be capable of.

Even if H changes a whole bunch of his bad habits and makes himself easier to live with, he will still be "him." Each of us have a slew of idiosyncrasies that are simply part of us and likely will never change. I'm sure some of them are good and some of them are bad. I know my H's idiosyncrasies. I don't know if I can continue to accept them. In the context of a M, anyway. I just don't know.

I read something on a post here the other day that got me thinking, so I went on a google hunt for something, which lead to something else, then something else, etc. Until finally I landed on a book entitled "After the Affair." If you followed my thread from the beginning, you might remember me mentioning that H had an EA years ago, tracking down his college sweetheart and exchanging emails with her, deleting them afterwards so I wouldn't see them. Well I did see them and brought it to the attention of the counselor we were seeing at the time. H denied that he was doing anything wrong (Really? Then why hide your tracks?) but the counselor told him he needed to cut it off. I was a bit disappointed because the counselor told him he needed to stop because "I" had a problem with it, not because it was a completely inappropriate thing to do. He was good otherwise, but left me out to dry there, I think. Well we never really did pursue it any further. I followed H's ever-so-delicately-worded emails to her, letting her know that he couldn't continue because I had a problem with it. So he ended it, as far as I know. But, really, how can I know for sure? He could have opened up a gmail account and picked up right where he left off.

The point of all of that is to say that I don't believe I've ever really gotten over that. The lack of counseling wasn't helpful. I would say I've forgiven him. Certainly we engaged/had sex/acted couple-like after that. But for me, the hurt is still there. I'm afraid it will always be there. Hearing (reading) your H tell another woman that she was the love of his life? -- well, it means that I'm not. And never was. Hearing him fantasize with her about what life would have been like if they had never broken up, and all the cr@p they could have avoided (referencing me and her ex) makes me question my value in the R at all. One of the things that I read yesterday was a post from a guy telling another guy what he was going to have to live with -- forever -- because of his choice to have an A. It wasn't punishment or criticism he would have to bear, but rather the sadness in the eyes of his W every time he said he loved her, because she simply wouldn't believe it, ever, because he said the same thing to OW. And he made that choice knowing how it would devastate his W if she found out, but he did it anyway. I'm not doing it justice, but it almost made me cry, because it is exactly how I envision my future.

Even if he stops accommodating his children's needs over mine, does that fix anything? I know where his heart lies. Is it worth it to get the behavior without the heart?

Even if he went to the Don Juan school of love-making and graduates head of the class, would it matter if I know I'm just something for him to exercise his equipment on? (Well, granted, if he was THAT good, it might be worth it. But I digress...)

I already know he's perfectly comfortable lying to me for his own benefit. I would be a fool to open myself up and trust him. Unless of course it's that "I trust him to lie to me again in the future." Can I sacrifice my #1 love language and still have a M?

I'm fearful because when I look forward, I see a loveless M. We will have mastered all the correct forms of interaction and communication, like a perfectly choreographed dance step. We will go places and do things and appear the perfect couple. But there won't be any feeling to back it up, because we both had to squash and bury what we really felt (him: wished he was with college sweetheart, kids and siblings are most important; me: honesty and openness are critical, spouses come first before all others) in order to "salvage the M."

I remember watching my grandma at my grandpa's funeral, after having been M'd for over 50 years. She didn't shed a tear. Ever. She never even mentioned him again. And she never dated anyone after he was gone. I told my H before we got M'd that I never wanted THAT to be my M legacy. Yet here I am...

This type of attitude will prevent a great sex-life with that particular man. You can't stonewall and beat someone over the head to make it be right, you have to open up and give passion and exchange it. If you were a great love maker yourself, you could coax your husbannd to treat your body right...

[sandi2]

I remember watching my grandma at my grandpa's funeral, after having been M'd for over 50 years. She didn't shed a tear. Ever. She never even mentioned him again. And she never dated anyone after he was gone.

Did she appear to be happier after your grandpa was gone?

[AJM]

I think it doesn't help in my sitch that, although H has apologized for the EA, he's still defending it as being nothing. "Just catching up with an old friend. She lives 3 states away, nothing was going to happen." Can you apologize and still not see it as wrong? Seems to me like something is still not right with that.

I want H to experience what I've experienced with him. I want to start an EA with someone and have it go on for months and then let H read it.

Why? What does that have to do with you? Why the anger?

The thing is, I don't want to do any of this as punishment or out of vindictiveness. I just want him to experience what I'm having to deal with, so that we're both operating with the same handicap. Otherwise, I just don't think he gets it. I'm having to deal with all of this stuff, this messy, long-term and permanent BS, and his big issue is that he's not getting sex right now.

I am so stinking angry at the unfairness of it!

Yes, you are certainly angry. I can see that.

I can also tell you that getting him to "see" what you see is not going to happen like that or in any way the way you would like. And I can tell you much more about that approach, but I think we should wait...

Oh, and I can tell you why he hasn't left. Two reasons: he doesn't have the list of complaints against me that I have against him, and he doesn't want to be divorced again because that really screws with his mental image of himself.

A narcissist doesn't get perturbed by leaving. I'm starting to wonder about the diagnosis? Does the counselor agree with that by chance? I would guess you don't know because it's private, but asking..

Here's the thing. I keep going back and forth between poor you and maybe there's more to the picture. I'm not sure why that is. I feel for you - that much is consistent. But the reason why is a little less clear. I'm starting to wonder about the EA and it's affects. I can see why he may not think it was an EA but stopped because of your feelings. I can see where he may be borderline (something) but I can also see his reactions to you and your feelings.

That's where it gets confusing to me.

And I get that you're hurt by the concept of maintenance sex and worse, by him saying it. You should know I've heard worse from women and I've known many women that have heard worse from men while on dates. Some of it as absolutely so funny I almost tear up even as I write this... Not saying it's right, just saying there is much worse being said out there.

As for you, why is it confusing? I mean really. Shouldn't it be cut and dry at this point? I get that you're hurt. I get that you've had some things to be angry about. I don't understand needing to deal with things this much later as a healthy way to go. You need to deal with what you need to deal with of course but it seems pretty far down the road to still hold that grudge. Unless you're bringing up things from the past...?

Help me better understand, CV. I do very much care, but I'm getting mixed signals and I'm not sure I can be helpful if I am.

Peace,
AJ

[DaddyLongShanks]

I think it doesn't help in my sitch that, although H has apologized for the EA, he's still defending it as being nothing. "Just catching up with an old friend. She lives 3 states away, nothing was going to happen." Can you apologize and still not see it as wrong? Seems to me like something is still not right with that.

I want H to experience what I've experienced with him. I want to start an EA with someone and have it go on for months and then let H read it.

Why? What does that have to do with you? Why the anger?

The thing is, I don't want to do any of this as punishment or out of vindictiveness. I just want him to experience what I'm having to deal with, so that we're both operating with the same handicap. Otherwise, I just don't think he gets it. I'm having to deal with all of this stuff, this messy, long-term and permanent BS, and his big issue is that he's not getting sex right now.

I am so stinking angry at the unfairness of it!

Yes, you are certainly angry. I can see that.

I can also tell you that getting him to "see" what you see is not going to happen like that or in any way the way you would like. And I can tell you much more about that approach, but I think we should wait...

Oh, and I can tell you why he hasn't left. Two reasons: he doesn't have the list of complaints against me that I have against him, and he doesn't want to be divorced again because that really screws with his mental image of himself.

A narcissist doesn't get perturbed by leaving. I'm starting to wonder about the diagnosis? Does the counselor agree with that by chance? I would guess you don't know because it's private, but asking..

Here's the thing. I keep going back and forth between poor you and maybe there's more to the picture. I'm not sure why that is. I feel for you - that much is consistent. But the reason why is a little less clear. I'm starting to wonder about the EA and it's affects. I can see why he may not think it was an EA but stopped because of your feelings. I can see where he may be borderline (something) but I can also see his reactions to you and your feelings.

That's where it gets confusing to me.

And I get that you're hurt by the concept of maintenance sex and worse, by him saying it. You should know I've heard worse from women and I've known many women that have heard worse from men while on dates. Some of it as absolutely so funny I almost tear up even as I write this... Not saying it's right, just saying there is much worse being said out there.

As for you, why is it confusing? I mean really. Shouldn't it be cut and dry at this point? I get that you're hurt. I get that you've had some things to be angry about. I don't understand needing to deal with things this much later as a healthy way to go. You need to deal with what you need to deal with of course but it seems pretty far down the road to still hold that grudge. Unless you're bringing up things from the past...?

Help me better understand, CV. I do very much care, but I'm getting mixed signals and I'm not sure I can be helpful if I am.

Peace,
AJ

The problem I have with the EA is that she got the concept of compartementalizing the husband out of certain part of her physical and spiritial self. And now it's almost a joke for him to concider he has a right to share intimacy with his own wife.

[Crazyville]

Thanks, AJ. I understand that it's confusing for you. It's confusing for me. I go from hating him and wanting to walk away and never look back, to wanting a close, intimate, loving R with him. I know I have some things to work on, too, and I tend to lose focus on them at times. For me, it's like trying to study for an exam while the stereo is blaring. Some people work well like that, I'm not one of them.

I had my girls' weekend away at the lake this weekend. What a fabulous time! Not just in regards to the shopping, eating, drinking, games, crafts, laughs, etc., but in terms of witnessing other W's and how they talk/think/respond to their H's. Not in the public way when the couples are all together, but when they speak of them in a safe, private, intimate environment with other women. I can't really define what it was specifically, just the overall impression of fondness "in spite of." Some of their issues were the same, some were different, some easier, some harder. It was just very refreshing to see their healthy response.

There were also several situations at the lake house that altered my mood of late. There was a problem with the circuit breakers and the water wasn't heating, so I was able to help the house owner figure out her own switches (because her H usually handles it.) Then she and a couple of others were trying to figure out the jet ski lift because it went down but wouldn't come back up. I determined that the GFI on the extension cord was bad, and we plugged directly into the outlet temporarily and everything worked great. They were appreciative and I felt like a hero. Whereas I sometimes think my "manly" skills make me appear unfeminine, they sure came in handy. So I'm trying to re-think, that "competent" does not equal unfeminine. Plus, at one point, I got a huge compliment of how "put together" I usually look (what??!!!) and when I said I needed to go through and purge my closet, they wanted dibs. Not *AT ALL* how I see myself. Curious.

So the weekend was almost like a spiritual retreat for me. I came back rejuvenated. Almost too much so. I'm very much a "let's jump in and get this done, now, and let's not stop until it is" type of person. But people aren't chores and I realize it isn't that easy. So whereas I would previously have jumped right in and then been disappointed shortly thereafter because everything wasn't "fixed," I put on the brakes, gently.

During the weekend, I texted a couple of times and called H just to check in. He seemed really appreciative. (In part because it got him out of the chore he was doing...lol) And when I got home, I spent some time sharing my weekend with him, and his with me, which he also enjoyed. And I did too, TBH. I noticed that he made a point to position himself so that a he was facing me, giving me his full attention. Then he stayed with me in the room while I was checking emails and such.

This morning when he left for work, I chatted with him for a few minutes, then went to give him a hug, to which he responded, "Really?" It almost broke my heart. I want to throw myself at him and give him everything he wants, but I know that's a problem of mine (being a "fixer") and I have to fight that impulse. I recognize that when I do that, I leave myself empty and resentful. But it did give me a glaring insight into how hard this is for him, too.

Usually when the ladies leave to come back, we have a quick breakfast and head out before noon. Well I had texted that to H, so initially he was expecting us home early. I texted him otherwise but then didn't contact him again. I had driven and so I had four other ladies in my van driving several hours home in the rain and then the dark. It's nerve-wracking for me anyway. I had my phone in my purse on vibe and wouldn't have wanted to mess with it anyway, but H had texted me twice and tried to call 3 times. I didn't hear. He was getting worried. Now he could have called one of the other ladies if he was truly bothered. But other than mentioning it, he was really quite good about my not answering. Much better than I would have been, TBH. That was humbling.

So to sum things up, I want to R my M, but I am SCARED. TO. DEATH. I don't want to lose my mojo again. I've turned back so many times, only to be massively disappointed, I'm afraid I'm running out of the will to try again. I want to own MY part in this dysfunction, and though I know some of it, I'm sure I don't know all of it yet. I want to reengage in a healthy way, slowly, and not all in, all at once. I want to intercept some of these issues before they become mountains. I am very competent, and though I can't do it FOR him, I should certainly be able to do it WITH him.

I want to work at letting go of some of my ideals of M. H is probably never going to be the "provider" that I would like him to be. That needs to be okay with me. At this point, he's probably never going to be smarter than me. That needs to be okay, too. He still has a whole lot of good qualities. And he's is working on the others that he can improve.

How do I hang onto this mood/attitude/resolve/focus/priority/whatever-it-is?? He is going to mess up. I KNOW that. How do I separate that from the 47 times he's done it before? Or prevent it from being so painful/frustrating/disappointing because we're there AGAIN? How do I step back into this SLOWLY? I feel like I'm handling a newborn infant and so much is at stake and I don't know how.

How do I make it SAFE FOR ME to venture back in?

[mamabird]

Wow CV. I am amazed to hear you've gotten to this place. Proud of you!

It is so helpful to hear your perspective. I wonder if my H might be feeling the same way too - wanting to R but not knowing how, and feeling very scared of being burned again. A lot of people here have recommended Retrouvaille and it sounds like it might get the ball rolling for you two.

One thing I have resolved to try is having more open and honest discussions with my H. We have never been good at that, as simple as that seems. It is a shame because I think if I had felt safer with him in the first place, none of this would have happened.

Maybe try setting a few very small goals and see how that goes, just to get a toe in the water. And maybe communicate to your H that you want to try but are very scared. Do you think he could be gentle? And are you willing to allow him to step up to the plate?

[lostsoul13]

CV your last post was awesome. It spoke of hope and your needs out of this.

As a guy and H, I would love if my W shared that post with me.....it would speak volumes about how my W felt. If he truly cared or even understood what you just spoke, he would met you in the middle.

He won't ever be perfect, but if he is willing to met you in the middle and you met him in the middle. Your M is going to be so much better.

If my W wrote me something like this and told me how much she wanted to make this work...I would do back flips because we guys are not mind readers.

If your husband read this and didn't lift a finger, i would say you done everything you could and its time to be happy.

[keep_going]

wow... CV.

this is an amazing post. I am so inspired by it and so happy for you. IDK if it's the trip, or your previous post where you started touching on your deep, deep hurts (EA and hurts towards your H), but I definitely sense a change in your outlook.

If I am not mistaken, this is what Kaffe had been talking about. You have started to change your perspective or POV and started the introspective work. You are now talking about what YOU can do, where YOU may need to change and that is huge!

I do have one question - have you ever talked to your H about your FEARS? You are so open and vulnerable here about where you are. Do you think it would be helpful to share that with him what you are currently feeling so he can understand you better?

I know that being vulnerable (with my H or anyone else) is a huge problem for me. Perhaps you have some struggles there too? Something I am working on is recognizing that it's ok to be fearful, to be vulnerable and to show my less-than-perfect side. It's part of the self-forgiveness process.

CV, again - I am very happy you are at this point and I wish you the best. Don't let your fear hold you back. We understand, because WAW or LBS, most of us are at some level fearful of something.

Good luck!

[~ kd ~]

Without wanting to come across as redundant, I just want to concur the feedback above to your last post.

You created a safe environment for you to edge your way back in.

That was freakin' awesome. Keep doing more of that.

And understand that your H, as you've recognized, is scared as well. Understand that he's likely to back step, and so are you.

Just keep moving forward.

When you get stuck again, take that time for yourself.

As they say, save yourself first.

Alternately, when you are doing well, push yourself forward. When you are doing not so well, step back. No one performs better when they push themselves when they are at their best.

[~ kd ~]

oops

No one performs better when they push themselves when they are at their best.

No one performs better when they push themselves when they are at not their best.