New to DB and Clearly Oblivious to My "Horrible" M

[NickB]

How have you been responding when she brings it up? Don't argue, reason, agree/ disagree or negotiate with her, just tell her that you want her to be happy and if she feels that is what will make her happy then you support her decision. You don't want to put any pressure on her to stay, she needs to know the cage door is wide open and she can step out any time.

It hasnt come up yet although the knowledge that this will be listed in March and there is no extension possible is new and we both just learned of it.

Ooh, that's a tough one. I think I would not plan on purchasing, just plan on leasing elsewhere. If you just assume that's where it's headed then you don't really need to approach her about it anytime soon.

That is where my head and heart are as well. This is tough because when we leased we had long discussions about not doing this for too long. We dont want to move the kids too many times and the a home offers stability. We both discussed this at great length before deciding to lease. But that was also 16 months ago before the rest of this developed too.

Again, I am not pushing it with her, but want to be prepared when it does come up.

Thanks for the advice and thoughts AS. I appreciate your continued support and guidance.

[sandi2]

Not looking for real estate advice here, but how do I handle the complicated web of long term financially planning with someone that one any given day doesn't want to have a long term future together?

My advice is to not commit to any long term financial plan of any kind when your M is not on solid ground.

I feel for you and your W and the stitch you find yourselves in. I can't imagine being 40 and having three babies under the age of four! This was a career girl who gave that up to stay home and raise her family. While I admire her, I also have to wonder how much that choice has affected her emotionally and physically.

Waiting until you are almost 40 before having your first child used to be considered unwise. Even if the health of the baby is okay, it often plays havoc with the woman's hormones. I'm sure men get tired of hearing about hormones, but I can tell you from experience that it is a critical part of the female. I said all of that to say this.....do you know if she has stayed on top of her hormone health? Does her doctor check it out with specific blood tests? What about depression after the last baby was born? Do you know if she suffered with it?

When a woman has an EA, it's b/c she isn't getting her emotional needs met. She's empty and she turns to somebody other than her H to meet those needs. Your first big clue was when the sex stopped. How long has that been going on?

Do you know why it stopped? Was she too tired, or did it hurt? Maybe it was you who was too tired? It happens all the time in our stressed out lives. But it's a sign that something is off in the R. The longer it goes without fixing it....the worse the R can become. Even when there doesn't appear to be anything obviously wrong, something begins to slowly die.

With me, I tried to fill the void I felt by finding other things to keep me busy, however, the emotional emptiness grew. The depression grew. I felt dead inside. It doesn't matter if it is me or your W, whenever a woman feels like she's all dried up and can't feel anything....she is very vulnerable. The first time some man says or does something that causes a little flicker in her stomach.....she discovers she can still "feel". She likes it enough that she'll likely try to get that little thrill again. Many times, she'll contact that OM who made her feel that thrill. He's feeding her starved ego and she can easily become addicted. It's much like when we first experience falling in love, and that's why so many times they think it "must be love" for me to feel this way.

Now here's the thing, even if the EA broke....she will begin to experience withdrawal pains. It is an emotional craving for the excitement of the A and how OM makes her feel about herself. So, without help....she will pick up the A with him or find somebody else. Even though this OM was caught and his W made him stop the A.....he'll experience withdrawal also, so he'll be tempted to pursue your W.

Research on line the PEAS. If you know what you're dealing with, you'll have a better plan of action.

A plan of action is exactly what you have to have. You said you didn't know exactly what your 180's should be. I suggest that you focus first at evaluating yourself as an individual man. What would another person see if they knew nothing about you being M or had kids? How is your personal appearance? How has it changed since you've been M? Do you stay fit? Does your manners need to improve? Does your personality need to be charge? Everyone can be improved when they take a good look at themselves.

Now evaluate your place in your home & family. Have you become lazy or too laid back in making decisions? I'm sure you're very tired if you have to make decisions at work all day and don't want to do it at home, too. But men who set back and have the W handle everything is not being the man she needs. He may think he's making things easier and letting her do whatever she wants, but this does not work well in the long run of things. Women's natural instincts is to want a man who provides, protects, and leads his family. If she feels that she is doing her part and your part too, it will take its toll on the R. She may not even realize it at first, but her lack of disrespect will begin to set in, and things start to get worse. Disrespect and resentment are cancers in M's.

How does she talk to you in front of the kids and others? This is important. Does she talk down in any way? Does she make fun of you in front of other? Does she fight with you in front of the kids or others?

How well do you participate with the kids? Would you say that you come off as being one of the kids? I mean, there is a time to play with them.....and btw, you making the kids giggle is good medicine for her ears. But there is a time to take charge and they know daddy means what he says. Would you say your children sees a good balance there?

It's so easy to let our jobs & raising children take over our lives. There's just not enough time for each other. But when you are together (without the kids) what do you do? Has she stopped showing any physical affection at all? Do you still kiss her? I mean really kiss her (not a peck good-bye).

You are in a tight situation, no doubt about it. There are no quick fixes. But hopefully, we can help you with some things to do and not do.

You don't have to write out the answers to my questions. They are more for you to examine yourself and have an idea of some 180's. I want to caution you about a couple of things. It doesn't mean you are doing any of these things now, but you'll know ahead of time.

Don't leave your bed. If she doesn't want to share a bed with you....she needs to be the one to sleep somewhere else.

Don't give her ultimatums unless you are fully prepared to carry it out and accept whatever the outcome. Throwing out ultimatums is not the way to get her to do what you want.

Don't expect her to bounce back quickly into being the W she used to be. She isn't the girl you M.

Don't talk about the R. You think you can't find out what you need to improve without discussing the R? Yes you can. Every man who comes here wants to fix the problems by talking....talking....and more talking to his WAW. We tell him not to talk and most of them go and talk anyway. It may release some of his tension for a few hours, but it won't help his R with her. You won't understand why. There are a lot of things you won't understand the "why" in our advice. Or you'll think it doesn't apply to your stitch. But here's the weird thing about it.....what would have worked before now, just won't. The difference now? She's involved a third party. Her heart closed to you and opened to another. So now you will have to operate differently.

You can do this! I hope you stick with us and post every day.

[labug]

Nick, I tread very lightly here because it's dangerous to read the complaints of an aggrieved spouse and make conclusions about exactly what's going on.

That being said, what you describe throws up a few red flags. The good news is, there is very successful treatment if in fact, PPD is what you are dealing with.

I think it will be helpful for you to look into your W's situation in a more in-depth way. You might want to make an appt for you with an IC who works with these issues to discuss things. I don't know where you live but look for resources for postpartum depression/perinatal mood disorders. Research postpartum support international.

There is a great book, Postpartum Husband, which could be very helpful.

Don't talk to her about this until you are sure you are on the right path and know exactly how you want to proceed, hopefully with the guidance of a skilled therapist. She probably thinks she's just fine or at least is trying to appear to be just fine.

PPD can be very scary for the woman as well as her family because she often does turn into someone you don't know, someone she doesn't know.

Take care of yourself and your kids. Love your W.

[NickB]

I said all of that to say this.....do you know if she has stayed on top of her hormone health? Does her doctor check it out with specific blood tests? What about depression after the last baby was born? Do you know if she suffered with it?

I tried and failed to convince her to go to the doctors lately. It was pushing her and she took it as me looking for an excuse for her behavior. I quickly backed off. Uncoordinated, a few weeks later our MC suggested the same to her. She has since been to the doctor. When I asked how she was she replaied with “fine” and clearly had no intention of discussing anything more. She is not on any regular medication of which I am aware.

I am not an expert on depression, but she has been irritable and moody for quite some time. If and when I have ever mentioned anything in the last two years the same response is provided. “I am tired.” Long before that, I have always been up for each child’s feeding and any other times they get up each night. I also let her sleep in as long as she desires and am often late for work because she rises late some mornings. I feed the kids, get them dressed and get them ready for school. I do what I can but the tired side never goes away.

When a woman has an EA, it's b/c she isn't getting her emotional needs met. She's empty and she turns to somebody other than her H to meet those needs. Your first big clue was when the sex stopped. How long has that been going on?

Do you know why it stopped? Was she too tired, or did it hurt? Maybe it was you who was too tired? It happens all the time in our stressed out lives. But it's a sign that something is off in the R. The longer it goes without fixing it....the worse the R can become. Even when there doesn't appear to be anything obviously wrong, something begins to slowly die.

Sex stopped for the most part after our first child. Any passion, desire, reciprocation ended then and never rekindled. I tried for months and eventually stopped because getting rejected too many times takes it toll. She was always too tired. I tried to respect her desires and stayed away from this area. Sex eventually became a means to have children alone.

Research on line the PEAS. If you know what you're dealing with, you'll have a better plan of action.

I researched PEAS as suggested and believe in the science. The challenge is I am not sure what the right plan of action is. Some of this was mentioned in one of the books our MC suggested we read. She never completed the book and told him that the book was hokey – expecially the part about the love addition (PEAS).

Now evaluate your place in your home & family. Have you become lazy or too laid back in making decisions? I'm sure you're very tired if you have to make decisions at work all day and don't want to do it at home, too. But men who set back and have the W handle everything is not being the man she needs. He may think he's making things easier and letting her do whatever she wants, but this does not work well in the long run of things. Women's natural instincts is to want a man who provides, protects, and leads his family. If she feels that she is doing her part and your part too, it will take its toll on the R. She may not even realize it at first, but her lack of disrespect will begin to set in, and things start to get worse. Disrespect and resentment are cancers in M's.

I am intreagued here. She would easily claim I am great with the kids and help all around the house. I am laughing to myself right now as I just put the fourth load of laundry in and have folded the first three. I handle our finances for the house but she insists on doing the planning for the kids. I read to them at night, get up with them in the morning, help with homework, etc. But she usually researches and plans what I will do with them on weekends, etc. (gives her a break from the week’s activities)

How does she talk to you in front of the kids and others? This is important. Does she talk down in any way? Does she make fun of you in front of other? Does she fight with you in front of the kids or others?

No. She is always respectful of me in the front of the kids as am I. Any angry conversations are held for when they are in bed.

How well do you participate with the kids? Would you say that you come off as being one of the kids? I mean, there is a time to play with them.....and btw, you making the kids giggle is good medicine for her ears. But there is a time to take charge and they know daddy means what he says. Would you say your children sees a good balance there?

I am more the of the discipliner than she is and she would readily admit that. We coparent fairly well and this has never been a point of argument since we first had kids.

It's so easy to let our jobs & raising children take over our lives. There's just not enough time for each other. But when you are together (without the kids) what do you do? Has she stopped showing any physical affection at all? Do you still kiss her? I mean really kiss her (not a peck good-bye).

Since the EA she has asked for all physical to stop. I always kissed her at the start and end of each day since we were first married. Passion was turned down after the first child. Wouldn’t even know how to kiss her now – but that is off limits.

You are in a tight situation, no doubt about it. There are no quick fixes. But hopefully, we can help you with some things to do and not do.

Please do. I am in need of serious guidance here!

Don't leave your bed. If she doesn't want to share a bed with you....she needs to be the one to sleep somewhere else.

I will add more to my journal later but strange you mention this just now. Today was the first day she asked me to move out of the bedroom to give her space. I validated her feelings but let her know I was not planning on moving out of the bedroom. This conversation took a quick nose dive with her response being: “I can see you are going to make this divorce difficult,” and stormed out of the room.

[NickB]

I think it will be helpful for you to look into your W's situation in a more in-depth way. You might want to make an appt for you with an IC who works with these issues to discuss things. I don't know where you live but look for resources for postpartum depression/perinatal mood disorders. Research postpartum support international.

There is a great book, Postpartum Husband, which could be very helpful.

I will read the book. I am interested in learning more. I will admit that even if this is part of the issue, approaching her will be almost impossible in her current state. She will quickly think I am trying to analyze her or control her in some way and that will just not fly right now. Wont stop me from learning, but I will likely be the fireman that shows up to the fire but is asked not to put the house out. Frustrating.

Don't talk to her about this until you are sure you are on the right path and know exactly how you want to proceed, hopefully with the guidance of a skilled therapist. She probably thinks she's just fine or at least is trying to appear to be just fine.

Exactly.

Thank you so much for taking time to comment. I am in need of lots of guidance and questions to help me pick this apart. I appreciate it.

[NickB]

Journaling and continuing questions:

Appeared that the last few days were going well in the sense that I have not seen as much fire and venom. That changed today out of the blue. My wife had a phone call with her younger sister this morning and I know she has been seeking guidance from her sister lately. Not sure what was said but as I came in the room, my W tells me that she is sick of people feeling like they can weigh in on her situation. I asked what she meant. W said her sister feels like she can bring up our M each day and try to provide W with guidance and W does not like this daily barrage.

I validated her feelings and asked her to tell me more about what she was feeling. W explained that she has no answers right now. She has no job, has no stability and cannot make decisions she wants to because of this. I validated that she sounds frustrated. She agreed and said that she was also mad because I appear to be enjoying my job lately. I validated again and said I was. She started to turn angry and said that its not fair that I am happy right now and she is not. Again, valdated that she sounds frustrated. She raises her voice and says I need you to move out of the bedroom.

Without acting too surprised, I told her that I understand she is frustrated and looking for answers and that I have tried hard to show her that if she needs to exit our R in order to find happiness that I am not trying to stop her and will support her. I also let her know I had no intentioned of moving out of the bedroom. She got angry and responded, “I can see you are going to make this divorce difficult,” and then stormed out of the room.

Ouch.

We wnet almost two months without her mentioning D and it is back – for the moment. I keep telling myself this is a marathon and not a sprint, but internally her mentioning D occasionally puts me back on my heels internally.

Should be interesting going to bed this evening.

[labug]

I'm encouraged that you're going to explore the possibilities.

Be aware of what you may dealing with before you choose a hill to die on.

I had undiagnosed PPD. I knew something was wrong but didn't know what. I was in denial. It dealt a major blow to my marriage and my depression waxed and waned through the years, causing further damage.

And, here I am.

Having a good PPD therapist help you navigate this, if in fact that's what's going, is key.

[NickB]

Just saw the W heading downstairs with her pillows. No words exchanged. We have entered a new stage here. Interested in where this will head now.

Wish me luck.

[AnotherStander]

Nick, great job, you're really sticking to the DBing quite well! Just keep in mind that DB'ing rarely generates instant results, so there was nothing really surprising about her reactions. It sounds to me like she's been thinking about asking you to move out of the MBR for some time and just looking for an excuse to spring it on her. It wasn't a response to your DB'ing I don't think. You handled it great- stood your ground, kept your cool, practiced great DBing through loving validation. Don't get discouraged, stick with it. You're introducing her to unexpected change in the R, good change. She doesn't want good change yet, she wants you to be the bad guy to "prove" she's right. You're not doing it and she's not happy about it. It'll take time for her to get over the anger/ resentment and start asking herself if this new you is for real.

[AnotherStander]

It sounds to me like she's been thinking about asking you to move out of the MBR for some time and just looking for an excuse to spring it on her.

Sorry for the typo, that should read "you".