AS makes good points about you trying to control the situation with the kids.
Why don't they all go out without you around? IS your presence mandatory and if so, why?
Don't tell me the kids are making that a requirement. You never let them decide anything before. Frankly, I'd strongly encourage my kids to see their father until they are informed enough to know what they feel. its too soon for them to know right now. And the harder their r's with your w, the harder it will be for her to come home.
(At some point she'll feel forced to show them she is RIGHT-by being WITH the OM for real, b/c no mother can be torn down maternally for too long before she takes a sharp turn.)
But I thought the follow up reply you gave, based on her comment about you not taking care of her, was legit.
She feels she has shouldered far too much of the family burdens for too long and without relief. She wants to be taken care of AND she's in physical pain as well as emotional. (And she's still working hard at her job too. Still no relief.
So how would going home be an improvement in anything other than seeing the kids?)
You pretty much agreed she took on too much, so it's good to show her that you get it now. I would think her comment may have been an opening and you went thru it.
I just want you to NOT be in the way of the kids even under the guise of "helping" her r's with them.
If you'd stop condemning her, and start telling the kids what YOU feel about how YOU were, then they might learn to communicate in their future relationships when they are not treated right, AND
they can learn that repairs in marriages can be made and that one keeps the road home, paved and smooth. Bottom line Forgiveness is mandatory, in every long term marriage. No exceptions.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Wasn't it a validation of her emotion? This is one of her biggest complaints. ((Me not taking care of her) Shouldn't I validate, and didn't I use mirroring (from turtle web site)??? And didnt she bring it up when she told be she was angry I didnt take care of her? I'm so confused!
Looking back at the text exchange I see now that your comment "I didn't take care of you in the way you need. Tell me more about that" was actually in response to her comment "Then I get mad at you, because I needed someone to take care of me." I missed that the first time, because it came after the "I'm driving" comment I thought you were just throwing it out there completely out of the blue. So yes, you were somewhat validating her comment. I apologize for the confusion, I just misread it the first time. I think your response was fine, but perhaps instead of "Tell me more about that" you might have said "I feel it's important to discuss this with you in person." I think it's a bad idea to try to engage in R talks through texting. You can't really effectively DB (listen intently, validate, make eye contact, lean forward, pay attention, not be distracted) through texts. And these DB techniques are a very important part of making your W feel validated.
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I also thought I was doing 180's when, after she brought up missing the kids, I offered help rather than telling her what she needed to do, as in past conversations above.
I understand what you were trying, but she probably won't like you trying to "fix" things for her. If your old behavior was to tell her what to do, then trying to fix is basically "more of the same" behavior. A better 180 would be to simply validate her emotions and leave it at that. Don't offer any advice or anything. "You miss the kids, I can tell you are sad and frustrated, I'm sorry you feel that way but I'm sure you can work things out with them." Remember, when women talk about their problems they just want/ need empathy. When men talk about our problems we want/ need solutions. You need to be mindful of what she needs, not what you think she needs based on a man's perspective.
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Also, expressing care about her emotions I was attempting to 180, as I believe one of my offenses has been devaluing her emotions and opinions.
Oh yes, this is absolutely a good thing to do. That's what validation is all about, showing her that you care about her emotions and that you take them seriously.
I don't believe they have any insights into how unfair and imbalanced thigns were within your marriage BEFORE OM.....
D does. I am sure of it. We had a LONG conversation a few days after DDAY, during which she enlightened me so much. She is very mature for her age in many ways. Graduated high school early and attending local college. pointed out I don't (didn't) discuss things but unilaterally decided things, always, then used disapproval, or maybe anger, to convince. It's not THAT hard to relate in better ways, I just somehow found this habit. Part of my business is sales... I KNOW it doesn't work there... Why would I think it worked anywhere else...
D said W actually told her "I wish he would just hit me so I could leave" which PISSES me off... My only response was "she said that?" D knew things were not good, and gives me the blame, while also saying "Nobody deserves this" (about the leaving, affair)
I am the one here with them so I think they will naturally give me more slack.
I HAVE apologized to them both together and separately, for how I've acted, who I've let myself become, what I've let happen. I am trying to own my mistakes with them as well. I do NOT want them thinking, "Mom had an affair for no reason and now she's back." Nor do I want them to see that behavior as a viable option for them in their futures.
I believe they are/were (depending which one, which day) very angry at me for the situation, especially D. All very closed toward me. She has softened toward me a little lately, sons moreso. I am trying to use what I learn here toward each of them as well.
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Have you taught your daughter that it's how THEY should be treated?
Yesyesyes I grieve about that. One major reason to change.
Please watch for my post later about our (W and me) conversation today. Can't wait to share, but need to get ready for GAL activity...playing music w/oldest S, my brother, and some friends!
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
Got text from W this afternoon, "I'm taking S16 to mall tomorrow." I replied, "Ok. When did you set that up. I'm curious because he's supposed to be in school right now."
W: texted him Wednesday. It's ok right?
I broke DB rules by trying to coax her into conversation here...I said "What do you mean is it Ok?"
She called me immediately. Asked if I had a problem with her taking him to mall. I hesitated, she called me on it, so I told her about my concerns that they are hurting, yet hopeful for family R, and hanging around w/him bay set up expectations or hopes. (I know, I know, I lost it again but the kids are involved here)
She actually asked what kind of expectations. I said they and I all want the family back together.
She said, "well that's fine but I need to fix myself first and part of that is having relationship w/kids. Don't you want me to have R w/kids" this seemed very positive to me.
I answered of course. Told her I was planing on taking them out to movie next week for their birthdays, and wanted to invite her along, if they would be willing. She was happy about that.
Later W texted "please don't give S16 a hard time for talking to me, so he won't want to go" (I've not done that at all...)
Me:I wouldn't do that. I'll be encouraging him to treat you well. W:I like the idea of us going to a movie or something next weekend. Me: I'm trying to make good things happen. W:I'm realizing in order for us to heal that I have healing to do- which is in process. Me:Glad. Kids need to heal too. Don't expect too much too fast. W:I know. But I need to start somewhere. Me:Yes. Anywhere. W:I just have so much hurt...and hurting them is not what I intended. Me:I know you're hurting. I want to understand that completely. And I know you didn't mean to hurt them.
As I look at that, maybe the "I know you're hurting" was not the right way to do it...I was really going for the opportunity to say I know she didn't want to hurt them and didn't really think about the 1st phrase so much.
Anyway this is the second time she has shut down after I have tried to validate.
Meanwhile, addressed the movie idea w/S20. He is dead set against. We also talke w/pastor. S20 says willing to forgive, work on R, move on but is adamant she be out of R w/OM and out of his house.
I validated his moral stand and courage, and told him I am taking different tactics w/W, ie showing her I am changing and on her side. He has not budged. I will not try to force him.
I also rehashed my part in hurting her, that yes, she sinned, but my sins made her vulnerable, and I am trying to make her path back smooth.
He agreed to write to her.
Pastor, S20, and I all agreed that any outing together where ppl pretend to be ok would be extremely awkward.
My dilemma...how do I tell W...what do I tell W... Don't want to have outing w/one S and W, other S left out when it was for his birthday..
I read above posts that I am trying to fix things for w with kids, and using or controlling kids...but I can't MAKE an adult talk to his mother. I can coach, suggest, encourage...
Suggestions were to make her fix things on her own...S doesn't respond...she doesn't know his thoughts, other than through me, so how can she? Hoping he will write that letter.
So I feel there is progress going on, yet still frustrated and confused.
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
Got text from W this afternoon, "I'm taking S16 to mall tomorrow." I replied, "Ok. When did you set that up. I'm curious because he's supposed to be in school right now."
why do you care WHEN they arranged something? b/c you suspect he's texting during class? You want to use their contact as a way to discover his wrong doing so that you can catch him, blame her or punish someone? What are you thinking? STOP the controlling
W: texted him Wednesday. It's ok right? I broke DB rules by trying to coax her into conversation here...I said "What do you mean is it Ok?" sigh...when in doubt, maybe you could just stfu
She called me immediately. Asked if I had a problem with her taking him to mall. I hesitated, she called me on it, so I told her about my concerns that they are hurting, yet hopeful for family R, and hanging around w/him bay set up expectations or hopes. (I know, I know, I lost it again but the kids are involved here) why should I comment here?^^^^^ I mean, are you getting any of this in a way that will lead to CHANGE?
She actually asked what kind of expectations. I said they and I all want the family back together. STFU
She said, "well that's fine but I need to fix myself first and part of that is having relationship w/kids. Don't you want me to have R w/kids" this seemed very positive to me.
I answered of course. Told her I was planing on taking them out to movie next week for their birthdays, and wanted to invite her along, if they would be willing. She was happy about that.
Later W texted "please don't give S16 a hard time for talking to me, so he won't want to go" (I've not done that at all...)
Me:I wouldn't do that. I'll be encouraging him to treat you well. W:I like the idea of us going to a movie or something next weekend. Me: I'm trying to make good things happen. W:I'm realizing in order for us to heal that I have healing to do- which is in process. Me:Glad. Kids need to heal too. Don't expect too much too fast. W:I know. But I need to start somewhere. Me:Yes. Anywhere. W:I just have so much hurt...and hurting them is not what I intended. Me:I know you're hurting. I want to understand that completely. And I know you didn't mean to hurt them.
As I look at that, maybe the "I know you're hurting" was not the right way to do it...I was really going for the opportunity to say I know she didn't want to hurt them and didn't really think about the 1st phrase so much. Keep your "validations" a lot shorter
Anyway this is the second time she has shut down after I have tried to validate. Learn from this^^^^
Meanwhile, addressed the movie idea w/S20. He is dead set against. We also talke w/pastor. S20 says willing to forgive, work on R, move on but is adamant she be out of R w/OM and out of his house.
and then YOU said what?..... nothing??
I validated his moral stand and courage, how convenient/righteous for YOU
and told him I am taking different tactics w/W, ie showing her I am changing and on her side. He has not budged. I will not try to force him. that's new
I also rehashed my part in hurting her, that yes, she sinned, but my sins made her vulnerable, and I am trying to make her path back smooth. FOR ONCE, can you ONLY refer to YOUR sins and NOT hers???
He agreed to write to her.
Pastor, S20, and I all agreed that any outing together where ppl pretend to be ok would be extremely awkward.
My dilemma...how do I tell W...what do I tell W... Don't want to have outing w/one S and W, other S left out when it was for his birthday.. so all your manipulations are NOT helping, are they? STOP trying to control everything. It's not working & you need to just take a mirror w/you
so when you want to improve or work on someone, just look in the mirror
I read above posts that I am trying to fix things for w with kids, and using or controlling kids...but I can't MAKE an adult talk to his mother. I can coach, suggest, encourage...
Suggestions were to make her fix things on her own...S doesn't respond...she doesn't know his thoughts, other than through me, so how can she? Hoping he will write that letter.
So I feel there is progress going on, yet still frustrated and confused.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Not sure if you read BOTH my posts. I have owned my wrongs w/kids. Again, some were even pointed out by D.
It seems my best option dealing w/birthday date, when she asks again, is to say not all the kids are ready for that. Assuming S20 is still against it. Rather than explaining to her his reason, let her figure it out or ask him.
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
S16 and D17 went to mall with wife today. This is what she says she needs to heal, and be ready to heal "us", so we'll see.
Working on getting S20 tp at least talk to her, despite being accused of using him as a pawn.
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
Not sure if you read BOTH my posts. I have owned my wrongs w/kids. Again, some were even pointed out by D.
2x4's are not pleasant to receive, but they are helpful if you let them be. 25 is right. Look at her comments again, they are quite valuable. You're still trying to control things which is probably one of the big reasons your W wants out. The more you try and control, the further away it pushes your W.
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It seems my best option dealing w/birthday date, when she asks again, is to say not all the kids are ready for that.
Sigh. Case in point. This is between her and the kids. Quit trying to control the sitch.
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Assuming S20 is still against it. Rather than explaining to her his reason, let her figure it out or ask him.
What's 2x4? From context I gather a suggestion that is uncomfortable for me?
Hard day today. D totally snotty for last 36 hrs, this after a few days of seemingly softening.
GAL activities: church, lunch w/friends from church, church dinner.
No contact w/W. I hate that.
A hard day in between GALs. I have learned to recognize what emotions I am experiencing lately.
Today's main course was FEAR, with a side of grief for a while.
Made myself go to the dinner when I was inclined to stay home for the pity party.
W informed me yesterday she is seeing MC this thurs! Maybe after that we both go.
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Sigh. Case in point. This is between her and the kids. Quit trying to control the sitch.
I'm just trying to be prepared:She knows the boys have birthdays, and I will take them out. I'm pretty sure she will ask to go. I need to answer her without getting into what will turn into a R discussion like the other day.
Me 46 W 43 S 21 D 18 S 17 M 22 yrs Discovered OM 9/10/12 W moved to sister's 9/15/12 W moved to OM 9/27/12 Tried to DB until 7/13 W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve. I counter filed 12/2/13.
What's 2x4? From context I gather a suggestion that is uncomfortable for me?
You must not read other threads much, the term is used a lot here It's as in slapping you with a 2x4 upside the head. Or as you said, suggestions that you may not be comfortable with or may not want to hear.
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I'm just trying to be prepared:She knows the boys have birthdays, and I will take them out. I'm pretty sure she will ask to go. I need to answer her without getting into what will turn into a R discussion like the other day.
How about this: "Can I go along for the birthday dinner?"
"I'd rather you didn't, I don't feel comfortable with that while you're living with OM. You should make your own arrangements with the kids to take them out for their birthdays."
Again, you have got to remove yourself from the equation. Detach. Let her start dealing with the fallout from her decisions.
It's as in slapping you with a 2x4 upside the head. Or as you said, suggestions that you may not be comfortable with or may not want to hear.