He's Just Not That Into You

[Breakdown]

I hear the impatience in your words....hang in there. He's not going to stop one day and say "I've decided to work on it with you....let's give this one more try with 110% effort." Go ahead and get in your head that it's not going to happen, at least not for a long long time.

You know my sitch, and 18 months in, as great as it is most days, my W still refuses to commit to the relationship (at least verbally). The other night she told me, "if I have to make a decision right now, it's going to be no." But let's go on a cruise! LOL

To some extent, I think your H is thinking "if she can do it, I can do it." When you complain about it, he's likely thinking "s*cks doesn't it?" He's not thinking about his values...he's thinking about his hurt.

I wouldn't worry about the gossip. Yeah, it's hurtful to some extent, but it doesn't define you. My W told our neighbors I was an adulterer so I get it (I did have a child with another woman, but it was before we got married). This actually helped me understand her side of it a bit more, and how she truly felt. I used to dismiss it, but now that I understand how much it hurt her, I own it completely, the action as well as the hurt it caused.

And while you may feel like he's spreading half truths, you did cheat on him twice. Would it make you feel better to tell people it wasn't physical? Do you think they would judge you any less? And do their opinions make a difference to you? Own it completely. There are no buts. If you're worried about telling your side of the story you are focused on the wrong things.

I still think I would make a play on the MBR. You moved out for months, and now have been in the spare room for a few more. At some point, I think you need to stand up to him on this. I'd probably wait until after the MC to see how that plays out, but I'm thinking that may be the next phase for you.

[mamabird]

Is the sofa bed in a bedroom? If so maybe consider buying a bed instead?

It's in our den/office, so we need to have it set up the way we have it. If it were a real bed it would be less of a problem.

If he has been talking to this person for a while then likely there is a need that was filled and it will have to run it's course. There is nothing you will be able to do or say to make that happen any faster. Now is where you have to decide what your limits are. Are you willing to tough it out for a bit or not?

In reality, I TOTALLY get this. I know exactly how H feels with regards to OW and I do have empathy for him. I have walked in his shoes, and I was ready to take those shoes out the door and into OM's arms. But I didn't, because H made a sincere effort. I decided it would be worth trying if H were on board. My heart wasn't really in it at first, but I wanted it to be and I did try.

2 months ago Chatterbug came on my thread and told me that H would have an EA to even the score. And of course, now it is happening. Honestly, it is not so much the EA that bothers me, it is my husband's distancing, withdrawal, withholding affection and punishment, not to mention the pure callousness with which he carries himself. These tendencies in him were what drove me to my EA's. If our R were better, I could tolerate him being friends with this woman as I think we benefit from having relationships with people of the opposite sex, as long as appropriate boundaries are in place.

I woke up thinking that I need to communicate some of this to him prior to our MC session. OW is really the symptom of the problem for me. My real sticking point is that I have been killing myself trying to pick up the pieces of this R while H sits and watches.

A sort of real-life metaphorical example of this happened last night. I made dinner like I always do. It wasn't anything fancy but I have asked H to wash the dishes after dinner. We finished dinner around 6:45 or 7. H left all the dishes in the sink and went upstairs to do whatever it is he do does, which was not playing with the boys or helping them with homework, because I did that. Long story short, I asked him to wash the dishes several times, and finally, as I knew would happen, he had fallen asleep with the lights and TV on and still hadn't done it.

This is the level of effort he puts into the relationship and it has to change or I'm out.

[MKB23]

I know you explained the dish washing thing before but I wonder if there is another way to go about this. I'm referring to a way to 180 his butt. I know the dishes really bother you. Have you tried not saying a thing? Nothing. Just don't do them.
You know what I mean? No sighs, no slumping shoulders, no sort of flopping around letting any irritation show? (these are things I *might* have done in the past) Just cook dinner, and let it go. If they are still there the next morning then you can choose to do them or let them pile up. It's not the end of the world. If they are still there the next night you could order take out. lol Sorry that's likely not good advice. The take out part. But just try to not react the same way you have been. Don't ask repeatedly. Don't say a thing.
You could also just start doing them yourself. In order for that to work though you would have to be able to do it without resentment or anything. I have a friend who's H won't do a daggone thing until she gets tired of waiting and she gets up and does it herself. Then he rushes over and does it.

[mamabird]

Breakdown, I want to address some of the things you said in your post to me. I'm on my phone so I can't do the quotes.

You said that I did cheat on him twice, I need to own it, and do other people's opinions matter. When someone says "she cheated on me" it's assumed that's physical, which it wasn't. Therefore he is intentionally trying to ruin my reputation among my community. I do own it, but semantics are everything and people are getting the wrong idea. And yes, people's opinions matter since I have to see them every day. I am the one who lives with the scarlet letter (at least my perception of it) and it is painful every day. Not an easy thing to ignore, I am sorry. H said to me this morning that I have no idea how my actions impact others and I see this as being a prime example of him doing that to me. Or maybe he does know, which is worse...

Now, onto the next thing. I did speak to h this morning mostly because I felt like I was going to seriously lose it if I didn't get some of this off my chest. I said that I'm very frustrated because I've been trying as hard as I can and getting nothing back. He keeps building his emotional wall higher and higher, and that's the crux of my issue right now. If he can't start letting me in, at least a little, nothing will ever be resolved.

His response was the same response I always get: I dont trust you, I don't know what your motivations are, you really hurt me over the course of several years, you keep changing your mind about what you want.

My response: I can't change the past, I can only change the future. And I've been working hard to change my behavior and change our dynamic. I'm not sure what else I can do. I do know that we won't ever solve anything if you aren't willing to try. I'm not sure why you want to go to therapy.

H's response: we are at a standoff and I'm tired of having the same conversation. Maybe the MC will help us get out of the same conversation.

Etc. I told him we'd be headed for D if he couldn't at least start to try to take down his wall. He doesn't seem to want to do that. I gave him my copy of After the Affair and asked him to read it. I am sure he won't until the MC tells him to. I do know that without forgiveness, we are doomed. I am really starting to prepare for D at this point because he shows no signs of moving towards forgiveness or any sort of putting the past behind him. He hasn't made any progress on any of this in 5 months, except for backing off D.

[scaredsilly]

My H is the type to feel sorry for himself and built this up bigger than they ate, milking them for all they're worth.

I finally stopped letting myself be emotionally blackmailed and did what you're doing: I put up "the hand", figuratively and literally, and advised him I was not going backwards, only forwards. He could join me or get left behind.

After a couple of times, he got the picture. One can only apologize so many times and after that, it becomes sadistic on their part.

[scaredsilly]

Typing on phone. "...build things up bigger than they are..."

[Breakdown]

His response was the same response I always get: I dont trust you, I don't know what your motivations are, you really hurt me over the course of several years, you keep changing your mind about what you want.

My response: I can't change the past, I can only change the future. And I've been working hard to change my behavior and change our dynamic. I'm not sure what else I can do. I do know that we won't ever solve anything if you aren't willing to try. I'm not sure why you want to go to therapy.

H's response: we are at a standoff and I'm tired of having the same conversation. Maybe the MC will help us get out of the same conversation.

I love straight talk, so I love your directness here...but then again, my W doesn't like it, so I see you running in the same circles as me to a point.

The trust issue is absolutely understandable, and you may remember me having a similar discussion with my W not long ago where I said "we have both got to start work on rebuilding trust." It's a long road and it's important to realize this is a two way street.

Maybe this is where you validate and say, "What can we do on both sides to start rebuilding our trust in one another?"

[mamabird]

Maybe this is where you validate and say, "What can we do on both sides to start rebuilding our trust in one another?"

I think this is perfectly reasonable and a good strategy to try, but I fear that my H will find some rationale to argue with this. However, I'll bring it up in counseling.

I've been thinking a lot about forgiveness today, and coincidence or not, the audiobook I am listening to on happiness had a whole section on forgiveness that came on while I was coming home from work. Forgiveness is essential. Forgiveness is not forgetting, forgiveness is not trust, forgiveness is not reconciliation. It's merely the first, but vital, step in mending this kind of hurt.

I do not think my H has ever forgiven his mother. He is a grudge holder to the extreme, and I believe his abandonment issues are playing deeply into our own dynamics.

I really hope we make some progress in MC, but these are the kinds of things we are going to have to deal with.

[MKB23]

This is where you do it differently. Forgiveness really is something you do for yourself. Not for anyone else. It is a point where you recognize that you are stuck and giving something hurtful in your past power over your future is just crazy. You forgive to let go.

One of the things that really stuck out for me was your H saying I am tired of having the same conversation. Look if you have done it that way repeatedly and get no results you have to change something. Right? That is DB in a nutshell. Honestly, the fact that you are in the same house and no one has filed is a good thing. Really. I would jump at the chance. What you are doing is not working. Do something different. What is your H LL? That would help. It may be that having these conversations at all are troubling for him. Are you being transparent? Trying to build trust back? Are you giving positive affirmation for the things he is doing right?
Sorry - not trying to be a butt face but I can really sense your frustration and hopelessness. I am guessing it is showing in your actions too. I posted something about this in the post about the dishes. DB basically says- a beginners mind, and 180. So assume nothing and do it different. If talking isn't working try other tactics.

[mamabird]

Thanks MKB, appreciate your help.

I just want to clarify one thing about what happened this morning with H. He said he was tired of having the same conversation over and over. That's ironic because we actually were having a new conversation. At least I was. I was telling him that I needed him to take down his wall, and he responded with his usual, "I'm hurt, I can't trust you" answer. So when he said we were in a standoff, that's actually not true. I was telling him we need to move forward and start breaking down some of the issues and he was refusing to budge.

There have been a lot of 180s. For instance, tonight we decided on pizza for dinner. I had a gift certificate to a local place and gave it to him. He comes home with pizza, but totally forgot about the gift certificate, and got a pizza that I don't really care for. My 6 year old pointed out to me that it wasn't the pizza I normally like, but my H, who I have been with for over twice the time S6 has been alive, cannot seem to figure that out. Old me would have ripped him a new one for all this. New me didn't say anything about the gift certificate (except to ask him for it back) and let him know politely that for next time, I prefer veggie pizza. I have a thought process now that lets me know when I'm starting to be bitchy and unreasonable and I'm trying to keep that in check.

My point in all of this is that I have 180'd my butt off and it hasn't made the kind of difference that I need it to. My biggest change is to try to tell him how I am feeling about things, in the moment or not too long after. To speak my mind whether good or bad. I had a moment this evening where I thought I wanted to share something with him, and caught myself thinking that he wouldn't respond like I wanted him to, so I wouldn't bother telling him. I am trying to break this pattern, although he's proven time and time again that he will respond according to his mood, and that usually doesn't bode well for me.

We are back to doing family things, which is good, and which represents a lot of progress. The change I need to see now is for him to be somewhat of an actual husband again.

With regards to the dishes, I have to draw the line somewhere. I think it's just completely disrespectful for him to do that. One night he went out at 8 pm and and left me with a dirty kitchen and I left him know (nicely) that that wasn't cool.