I wasn't trying to be insulting to him or insensitive to his desire for sex. My suggestion of masturbation was in response to him telling me that the bible says that my body is his body, and I need to at least give him maintenance sex so that he can exercise his equipment and make sure it keeps working. It's hard to even feel human in that context, much less like it's act act of love. My empathy for his need is waning greatly.
I think you earlier said you weren't a saint (paraphrase). I think otherwise. I think this part of your conversation made your point about what you see.
I suppose part of the question now is how the counseling will go, but I certainly understand better what your stress has been like. The conversations, the wanting reciprocation, etc. It seemed to coalesce at that point for me to better understand that you have years of this and must be tired. My heart and admiration go out to your for your efforts and not just walking away during this. I think it says a lot about you that you are still there and seem to have the door open a crack.
Peace,
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
I have actually pointed out to him many times that I find his walking away offensive, especially because I'm usually waiting for him to respond to what I just said and he just drops it and leaves. To be honest, though, our conversations go way too long and are rather unproductive, and it seems like there's never really an appropriate time to end it such that it ends on a positive note. So although I don't necessarily consider this to be a good long-term solution, I think it's a good one for now.
I have told him that I want a sexual R, but it has to be in a healthy context. I'm not a non-sexual person. But my having sex also means I expect to get something out of it too. He is a selfish partner. Period. So along with the emotional/relational sides of things that need to be addressed, I need to have some enthusiasm for the act itself with him. Right now, I don't. I have tried to address this with him over the years, but I struggle with how to tell my H he's not very good in bed without him interpreting it as me "pointing and laughing." And, of course, there's his inability to even remember what I suggested for 24 hours.
I'm sure this is not the appropriate forum for this, but people masturbate for a reason, most since the onset of puberty. It's not a replacement for the real thing, but it helps one get by. I suggested to my H that it's a natural and healthy thing and he might need to go that route for awhile until we reconciled our R, and he jumped down my throat. By his response, you would have thought I suggested to him that he use S12 instead.
I wasn't trying to be insulting to him or insensitive to his desire for sex. My suggestion of masturbation was in response to him telling me that the bible says that my body is his body, and I need to at least give him maintenance sex so that he can exercise his equipment and make sure it keeps working. It's hard to even feel human in that context, much less like it's act act of love. My empathy for his need is waning greatly.
The act of love is in the giving in it. Were not always going to want things the same time our relationship partner does, but as long as you don't detest them it shouldn't be a problem.
If your not going to be into it because your desire is low, tell H you will help him out, but he has to hurry.
Also if there is something that really bothers you, that makes it less likely for you to desire him, let him know somehow.
I definitely see a trend CV, of new folks being exposed to your sitch, working through it with you, and then agreeing you're in a really tough place.
Why did H start going to counseling for narcissism? Did he come up with that himself, or did you suggest that he's a narcissist and he really listened?
If he's going to therapy for narcissism, why would his therapist be telling him that he could divorce you on the basis of abandonment, isn't that making it all about him? Who is this therapist? Does it make sense for you to talk to the therapist to give some background?
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
A, I really appreciate everyone trying. There's always hope for a few pearls, even if they're not all-out game changers.
The counselor that told H he had grounds for D was a different counselor; one we've known for years that H would only see every couple of months. The new one he's going to because I insisted. It's not supposed to be M counseling, so it is all about him. He may not be a narcissist but he has all the symptoms. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,.... well... in my book, you treat it like a duck.
CV, thanks for the insight into my sitch. It's really helpful. Thankfully he's relented on a couple of those things but I think you're dead on about his "commitment to D".
Me54, H53 M 23, T 25 S20, S18 BD: April 2024 Moved out: August 2024
Love means not giving up on someone even if they've given up on you.
"Being right is the booby prize of life." - Susan Page
Thanks, AJ. I'm still not a saint. If I were, I'd give him his maintenance sex.
And therein lies the other half of the problem: ME.
I have concerns about me and what I'm capable of, or better said, what I might not be capable of.
Even if H changes a whole bunch of his bad habits and makes himself easier to live with, he will still be "him." Each of us have a slew of idiosyncrasies that are simply part of us and likely will never change. I'm sure some of them are good and some of them are bad. I know my H's idiosyncrasies. I don't know if I can continue to accept them. In the context of a M, anyway. I just don't know.
I read something on a post here the other day that got me thinking, so I went on a google hunt for something, which lead to something else, then something else, etc. Until finally I landed on a book entitled "After the Affair." If you followed my thread from the beginning, you might remember me mentioning that H had an EA years ago, tracking down his college sweetheart and exchanging emails with her, deleting them afterwards so I wouldn't see them. Well I did see them and brought it to the attention of the counselor we were seeing at the time. H denied that he was doing anything wrong (Really? Then why hide your tracks?) but the counselor told him he needed to cut it off. I was a bit disappointed because the counselor told him he needed to stop because "I" had a problem with it, not because it was a completely inappropriate thing to do. He was good otherwise, but left me out to dry there, I think. Well we never really did pursue it any further. I followed H's ever-so-delicately-worded emails to her, letting her know that he couldn't continue because I had a problem with it. So he ended it, as far as I know. But, really, how can I know for sure? He could have opened up a gmail account and picked up right where he left off.
The point of all of that is to say that I don't believe I've ever really gotten over that. The lack of counseling wasn't helpful. I would say I've forgiven him. Certainly we engaged/had sex/acted couple-like after that. But for me, the hurt is still there. I'm afraid it will always be there. Hearing (reading) your H tell another woman that she was the love of his life? -- well, it means that I'm not. And never was. Hearing him fantasize with her about what life would have been like if they had never broken up, and all the cr@p they could have avoided (referencing me and her ex) makes me question my value in the R at all. One of the things that I read yesterday was a post from a guy telling another guy what he was going to have to live with -- forever -- because of his choice to have an A. It wasn't punishment or criticism he would have to bear, but rather the sadness in the eyes of his W every time he said he loved her, because she simply wouldn't believe it, ever, because he said the same thing to OW. And he made that choice knowing how it would devastate his W if she found out, but he did it anyway. I'm not doing it justice, but it almost made me cry, because it is exactly how I envision my future.
Even if he stops accommodating his children's needs over mine, does that fix anything? I know where his heart lies. Is it worth it to get the behavior without the heart?
Even if he went to the Don Juan school of love-making and graduates head of the class, would it matter if I know I'm just something for him to exercise his equipment on? (Well, granted, if he was THAT good, it might be worth it. But I digress...)
I already know he's perfectly comfortable lying to me for his own benefit. I would be a fool to open myself up and trust him. Unless of course it's that "I trust him to lie to me again in the future." Can I sacrifice my #1 love language and still have a M?
I'm fearful because when I look forward, I see a loveless M. We will have mastered all the correct forms of interaction and communication, like a perfectly choreographed dance step. We will go places and do things and appear the perfect couple. But there won't be any feeling to back it up, because we both had to squash and bury what we really felt (him: wished he was with college sweetheart, kids and siblings are most important; me: honesty and openness are critical, spouses come first before all others) in order to "salvage the M."
I remember watching my grandma at my grandpa's funeral, after having been M'd for over 50 years. She didn't shed a tear. Ever. She never even mentioned him again. And she never dated anyone after he was gone. I told my H before we got M'd that I never wanted THAT to be my M legacy. Yet here I am...
I can tell you on the other side of an EA that it can be forgotten and it does not always need to be an elephant in the room if H can make you feel truly loved. It's certainly not an asset to a relationship but its not a death sentence either. I felt as you do now and had the same doubts and I can tell you that if you see honest love and appreciation from him you will not worry about it. Getting there, however, is brutally hard.
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I'm fearful because when I look forward, I see a loveless M. We will have mastered all the correct forms of interaction and communication, like a perfectly choreographed dance step. We will go places and do things and appear the perfect couple. But there won't be any feeling to back it up, because we both had to squash and bury what we really felt (him: wished he was with college sweetheart, kids and siblings are most important; me: honesty and openness are critical, spouses come first before all others) in order to "salvage the M."
I can tell you that a lot of people have got past such things and have had very good marriages. The key is that perspective again. I can see you don't "see" it in the future. But that is just one possibility. Seriously. Life isn't perfect. It is not butterflies and sunshine. But accepting that is a very different kettle of fish, is it not?
I don't know what you can and cannot do. I can tell you that if you leave, either physically or just emotionally, there will come a time your decision is made for you. It's the nature of things because there are two imperfect people in that R. Is what it is.
I'm not saying it's ever too late. I'm saying that your choices and his are intertwined. You cannot control him and his choices or his reactions to your choices. Anymore than he can control yours, right?
Finding that way to get past those issues is the trick. The fact that he even wants to get help or make changes says a lot. He could walk away too, right? But he hasn't. He's looking for help. Why is that?
I realize it's hard. I do. I don't think it's any harder than any other couple though. And I don't think it's impossible at this point. But I do think there is some hard work ahead.
No matter what happens, it's obvious you do love him even if not romantically right now. It seems the question is if you can find a way to love him more than you do. If you both can change in a mutually beneficial way.
How come you didn't leave him before? Why not when the EA occurred?
You'll need to answer these and many more questions. Now or later. Can't avoid them even if you don't post them
I wish you the best no matter what happens, CV. I really do. I try to be helpful, but wonder sometimes if I am more hurtful than helpful. Let me know if that's the case. I'll cry quietly if so
Peace, AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
LOL! So the million dollar question is: How does a narcissist make someone else feel truly loved?
A, it's wonderful to hear that you've gotten past it in your sitch. I so hope for the best for you going forward. You've certainly earned it.
I think it doesn't help in my sitch that, although H has apologized for the EA, he's still defending it as being nothing. "Just catching up with an old friend. She lives 3 states away, nothing was going to happen." Can you apologize and still not see it as wrong? Seems to me like something is still not right with that.
Boy, I'm really gutting myself tonight. It's great to have a place to dump. I don't know what I'd do with myself tonight otherwise.
I want H to experience what I've experienced with him. I want to start an EA with someone and have it go on for months and then let H read it.
I want to trash him to my family so that they reject him like his family did me. So that every time there's a family function, he gets to deal with their dirty looks, while I tell him, "it's okay, they're family, they just want what's best for me. You need to forgive them and move on."
I want to lie to him about things periodically, so he doesn't know anymore whether I'm telling the truth or not.
I want to talk with him in-depth about something he wants, why he wants it, get him to expose his deepest feelings about it. Then I want to do just the opposite, because my BFF wanted it that way.
The thing is, I don't want to do any of this as punishment or out of vindictiveness. I just want him to experience what I'm having to deal with, so that we're both operating with the same handicap. Otherwise, I just don't think he gets it. I'm having to deal with all of this stuff, this messy, long-term and permanent BS, and his big issue is that he's not getting sex right now.
AJ, you and everyone else are helping in some way or another. Plus, I appreciate your random humor. It talks me down.
I don't have answers to your q's. I'm clearly still struggling with it. Except I can tell you the reason I didn't leave H when the EA happened is the same as now - S12. Besides, is an EA really any more problematic than my H telling me I need to give him maintenance sex? It all blurs together. It's hard to see the forest for the many, many trees sometimes.
Oh, and I can tell you why he hasn't left. Two reasons: he doesn't have the list of complaints against me that I have against him, and he doesn't want to be divorced again because that really screws with his mental image of himself.
