To me, perspective is what you see from where you stand. You might see more detail the longer you stand there, but you will never see it from another angle
To me, perspective is how you see something not what. My perspective is .. My view is what I see.
Just for clarification.
For clarity, what does your H say when you tell him you want more? Does he just brush it off? Does he try for a while and stop? Why does he keep going to the retreats? To try and find ways to meet your needs or to get you to meet his? Or both?
Curious - what is he seeing a counselor for?
I know, I'm full of questions
Peace, AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Very insightful,. Do you have any book recommendations?
The best I can offer is to search the internet on a phrase such as "introduction to tao"
Just as a reference to the current dialogue between AJ and CV, notice that AJ is asking questions geared towards CV taking an introspective look at her own path, to date. More specifically, her path during the M.
The person who created that path, was CV. The results that CV finds having travelled that path have shown up and she looks outwards for a problem, rather than looking inwards to understand it was her path and she has an opportunity to adjust her path, however that might look for her.
Her situation, and this is directed to everyone... on this board... off this board... with M "problems" or not...
The results of the path we have travelled are completely our own creation.
When we understand that, we are closer to understanding ourselves... and we then understand our own power to create a new future, by following a different path... or rather stated, by simply choosing different actions...
It takes a lifetime to create our biography... every moment in between is a moment we can change it...
For clarity, what does your H say when you tell him you want more? Does he just brush it off? Does he try for a while and stop? Why does he keep going to the retreats? To try and find ways to meet your needs or to get you to meet his? Or both?
He promises to give me what I asked for. Sometimes he'll do it for a short time then stop (a week at most,) sometimes he doesn't do it at all. I don't know why he does the retreats, but it's always "new information" to him even if he's heard it 100 times. The only thing I see come from it is that then he can claim "effort."
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
RegretfulLA, I've been trying to read through all your threads. I will say, you have been very committed through all this, and you've had some serious resistance from your H. You should feel proud. I'll keep reading as I get a chance to catch up to current.
One thing that you posted about that I wanted to respond to HERE on the WAS forum is your confusion about him not eating with you or eating what you cook. I can probably explain that, at least in part.
First, as for eating with you, he doesn't want anything to appear "normal" because in his mind, it isn't. By distancing himself from normal actions, he's practicing stepping out of the M. It's one of the few things he can do to make this as real as possible w/o actually being D'd. If eating with his W and family is something that he would do in a happy M, he's going to avoid that because he doesn't have a happy M and doesn't want to fake it. It's as much a mental "lesson" for him as it is for you.
And he likely doesn't want to avail himself to more "normal" activities, like pleasant conversation about minutia at the dinner table.
He also doesn't want to do anything that YOU want him to and he's interpreting that you want him to eat with you. Call it punishment, call it disassociating, call it disconnecting -- it's all the same.
Simply, he believes he doesn't "like" you and doesn't want to do friendly things with you and then have you get the wrong idea.
His not eating the food you cook and leave out for him is his way of refusing a peace offering. He's probably fearful that if he accepts this, then you'll expect him to accept something else, and that becomes a landslide. Or worse, that if he accepts something from you, that you'll want something in return.
Bottomline, he's trying really hard to stay committed to his desire to D, and anything that goes against that or looks like it's not heading in that direction is rejected.
While I think that's likely very accurate, I am sorry you know that, Crazy
Funny how things can be so similar for people in various situations.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Thanks AJ, knowledge isn't always good. There is definitely parallels in people's lives, which I suspect is the appeal of a site like this.
I'm not sure the WAS side of things is any better or worse than the LBS side of things. It's just two people hurting badly in the relationship at different times, in different ways, and at different degrees. And... occurring in a million different relationships at one time.
So I thought I would just journal some.
H has been aces this week. Really. I'm saying this not only because it's relevant to my thoughts, but to prove that I don't just look for the negatives in his actions, like some people might think I do. He has done a lot this week, focusing on my past complaints.
So, my first thought is, "That's great, but how long is this going to last?" In the past, he's only adjusted his behavior for a very short time. So I admit I'm responding less than enthusiastically. I've been duped too many times before. My concern is that it's going to take me a long time to believe it, and I don't know that H has the commitment to stick to it without getting what he wants in return sooner than I'm willing to give it.
At the same time as he's stepping up, taking responsibility for household tasks and going to counseling, there are still some giant red flags. I asked him last night if he was pleased with the implementation the previous night of the format of terminating a conversation. We agreed that when we start a convo, I would set a short time frame mentally, note the cutoff time, and when the time was up, politely terminate and walk away. This meets his need of keeping the convo short and getting to bed early, and meets my need of not feeling offended when he just walks off, which is his M.O. Also, it keeps me relatively uninvested in the convo, focusing on the time instead, which is a good thing because it keeps me from digging in my heels and hurricaning. Win-win!
Well his answer to my question was long in coming. He paused for a few minutes and I knew he wanted to say no, because I suspect he found his mirrored behavior equally offensive. But at the same time, he liked the short duration of the convo and getting on with his night. I believe he was trying to figure out how to switch it up so that it was a win-win -- for him. (Remember, he doesn't understand that a win-win involves two people each winning, but rather that he wins really BIG.)
I asked if there was a problem, and he asked why we can't just agree on everything. So I "reflective listened" and asked him if he was wanting to know why we can't just think alike on everything. He laughed as he recognized how ridiculous that sounds. But at the same time, this has been a recurring theme with him. He doesn't seem to grasp the reality that two people are going to be different and that compromise is necessary.
We had also discussed earlier in the week the lack of honesty in the relationship. I proposed that we simply take honesty off the table, so that neither one of us is expecting it and therefore neither one of us will be disappointed. He seemed really put out by that idea, even though he's the one that has been deceitful throughout our M. I said that I'm just trying to create a level playing field. As he was considering whether or not he would agree, he asked if that would mean he would start getting sex. So I pointed out that before he would even agree to something that would equalize the relationship, he tried to negotiate something that would give him an advantage, that he seems only interested in a R where he's coming out ahead. On the positive note, this did seem to resonate with him, perhaps because he's spent some time considering his narcissism.
And of course the comment that I have no credibility because of my mother's behavior, for which I'm not responsible.
So there is effort being made, but still some giant hurdles that I'm not sure we can get over. When I factor in the me side of things, it gets even more complicated, but that's another post....
So, my first thought is, "That's great, but how long is this going to last?" In the past, he's only adjusted his behavior for a very short time. So I admit I'm responding less than enthusiastically. I've been duped too many times before. My concern is that it's going to take me a long time to believe it, and I don't know that H has the commitment to stick to it without getting what he wants in return sooner than I'm willing to give it.
Did you tell him this? He seems to be in a receptive state currently, maybe you should tell him this directly.
When he abruptly ended your conversation and went to bed, you found it insulting and you were hurt. It doesn't sound like you pointed that out to him. Instead, it seems liked you looked for an opportunity to turn the tables on him and punish him by mirroring his behavior. I'm not sure that's going to work for either of you if the goal is for both of you to be satisfied.
I think it might be more effective to tell him that you connect through conversation, so if going to bed early is a priority for him, he needs to start talking to you earlier. Another thing he can do is give you a 10 minute warning that "he's getting tired" so you know you can pursue the current line of conversation but maybe not start a new one, or you can make a rule that either of you can suspend conversation, but that you agree to resume it within 24 hours at a time both of you agree to and then see it through until both of you are done.
The "can I have sex now?" is obviously a red flag. I would never underestimate the lengths a man will go to in pursuit of sex if he's not getting any. You are obviously keenly aware of this too.
This puts you in a tough spot, because you don't want to withhold sex as punishment, or offer it as a reward for good behavior -- that's not what it's about. However, as long as he's hurting from a lack of sex, he's going to pursue it, and it's going to eat away at him. You knowing that the sex is a motivator for him will make it hard for you to trust his commitment.
I don't know what to do about that. I would probably tell him that if you are in a marriage you feel good about and your most important emotional needs are being met, you would expect to also be connecting with your husband through sex.
Let him work through what that means. Don't make it a punishment/reward thing or you'll get stuck.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I have actually pointed out to him many times that I find his walking away offensive, especially because I'm usually waiting for him to respond to what I just said and he just drops it and leaves. To be honest, though, our conversations go way too long and are rather unproductive, and it seems like there's never really an appropriate time to end it such that it ends on a positive note. So although I don't necessarily consider this to be a good long-term solution, I think it's a good one for now.
I have told him that I want a sexual R, but it has to be in a healthy context. I'm not a non-sexual person. But my having sex also means I expect to get something out of it too. He is a selfish partner. Period. So along with the emotional/relational sides of things that need to be addressed, I need to have some enthusiasm for the act itself with him. Right now, I don't. I have tried to address this with him over the years, but I struggle with how to tell my H he's not very good in bed without him interpreting it as me "pointing and laughing." And, of course, there's his inability to even remember what I suggested for 24 hours.
I'm sure this is not the appropriate forum for this, but people masturbate for a reason, most since the onset of puberty. It's not a replacement for the real thing, but it helps one get by. I suggested to my H that it's a natural and healthy thing and he might need to go that route for awhile until we reconciled our R, and he jumped down my throat. By his response, you would have thought I suggested to him that he use S12 instead.
I wasn't trying to be insulting to him or insensitive to his desire for sex. My suggestion of masturbation was in response to him telling me that the bible says that my body is his body, and I need to at least give him maintenance sex so that he can exercise his equipment and make sure it keeps working. It's hard to even feel human in that context, much less like it's act act of love. My empathy for his need is waning greatly.
