WAS vs. LBS

[AJM]

Hi Crazy. It's not a game. It's a series of conversations to help you see another side and to help me see another side.

What I read in your email was what I expected, but I don't think you get it.

Let me be blunt then.

What did you specifically do each day of your marriage to show you wanted to be married to your husband? To make your marriage work?

Your analogy makes it sound like you are throwing him off like an old coat, but I doubt you meant it like that.

Let me continue to be blunt. What have you done to change your perspective about your H? Why did you once feel so enamored and now do not? You seem to think it's because you were wrong about him. What makes you say you are not wrong about him now??

The only thing that comes through is that you are not happy. And you seem to be looking for a reason to blame him so you can happily leave without the guilt.

If he wanted to be done you would have been kicked out already. If you wanted to be done you wouldn't be here.

So what changed? Specifically? What is it you are unhappy about specifically? Not just in the past year, but overall and over the entire marriage? What are his sins?

What are yours?

Last bluntness:
Change - be the change you want to see in others.

I see negativity from you. I suspect mild depression but I am no doctor. You have a strong desire to run away "and find happiness" and are not really looking for a way to stay, from what I read. You just want to avoid conflict, which is different.

I see no gratitude for the years together. I see only anger. Why? Has he changed that much? Or has your perspective changed that much? If so, why? Really. And not because you were wrong. You weren't wrong. But your view has changed and you'd like it to be that simple I think.

Last thought - your H doesn't make you happy. The next guy won't either. That's not where happiness comes from. And happiness is fleeting and elusive. Like a drug.

Joy is the better goal. Happiness is just a part of joy.

Too blunt? Not enough?

AJ

[mamabird]

AJ - I think this is much more clear - good questions.

[mamabird]

Sometimes we need bluntness here and I don't think we'd be here if we weren't welcoming honest feedback.

[Crazyville]

RegretfulLA, yes, I agree that we need honesty and bluntness. No point wasting time and energy on riddles.

What did you specifically do each day of your marriage to show you wanted to be married to your husband? To make your marriage work?

It's hard to describe because it was so automatic. It's like doing things for our kids without really thinking about it. If I make S12 cookies or invite him to play a game of ping-pong, it's not something I have to put a lot of thought into. I know it's something that he enjoys. I'm in tune with him. I can tell when he's happy or sad, when he's interested in something or bored. I listen when he talks to me. But I'm his parent, so if he does something inappropriate (leaving Halloween candy wrappers all over the place) I get to tell him to pick them up. He does it, we're good. (I don't expect that to last for much longer as he gets deeper into his teenage years and starts to pull away, but it's wonderful right now.)

For H, it was similar. I knew what he liked, what he liked to do or eat or watch on TV. I would record something he might miss, cook a meal I knew he loved, dress in something sexy, compliment something he did, host his family get-togethers, participate in his activities, etc. He was happy. His words. He was not doing for me. His words. In my mind, marriage is reciprocal. I simply ran out of energy and enthusiasm. I'm not the martyr-type and don't get endless joy out of doing something for others while getting nothing in return. I told him I needed specific things from him. His response was, "I know, but..."

No, I certainly didn't mean to make him sound like an old coat.

What have you done to change your perspective about your H? Why did you once feel so enamored and now do not? You seem to think it's because you were wrong about him. What makes you say you are not wrong about him now??

I could be wrong about what he might or might not do in the future. I could be wrong about his motives. I'm not wrong about what he does or says. As I said, my perspective changed because of my experience. I am no longer "enamored" with him because he is not the person I made him out to be. I believed he was honest. He is not. I believed he would be loyal to me. He is not. I believed M to him would be reciprocal. It is not. For me to be wrong about these things now is a matter of semantics (ie. lying isn't dishonest.)

The only thing that comes through is that you are not happy. And you seem to be looking for a reason to blame him so you can happily leave without the guilt.

Gosh AJM, most everyone on this site sounds unhappy. The situations stink. I'm missing the distinction. In six years when S12 is off, I plan to get a job where I travel a lot. I will find great joy in that activity. It's not a sin, so I'm not sure what "guilt" I'm trying to avoid? I will agree that I'm trying to avoid the conflict, because it does not accomplish anything except build animosity.

What is the difference between "view" and "perspective?"

[AJM]

Hi Crazy.

compliment something he did, host his family get-togethers, participate in his activities, etc. He was happy. His words. He was not doing for me. His words. In my mind, marriage is reciprocal. I simply ran out of energy and enthusiasm. I'm not the martyr-type and don't get endless joy out of doing something for others while getting nothing in return. I told him I needed specific things from him. His response was, "I know, but..."

Were there any specific things he asked for that you didn't give him?
What were the specifics you asked for that he was unwilling to give you and why did he not want to? Just curious.

Not everyone on this site is unhappy. I am not unhappy. At least not always. I am a very joyful person who finds purpose, laughter, and joy everywhere I look. I am that kind of person though. I was quite unhappy while trying to figure things out with my ex. I am not any longer.

Oddly, I suspect my ex could have written much of what you have written at one point at some point in her leaving. It was a process. I watched that process like a slow moving train wreck. In my case, we went to counseling. She about 5 times, me many more than that. She had one complaint against me. The last time she was happy was literally months before she said we were done. Not many complaints prior.

She would tell me often she had changed. It's not you, it's me. Eventually, it was "it's you! I never loved you". But I watched this evolution of the thoughts.

What changed was her perspective. Her view of the world became very self-focused and it changed her perspective on past events. She "re-remembered" our history together. She tried many times to justify leaving vs. finding a reason to stay. To the point it was painful to watch. (note - I'm not perfect by any stretch; but I did love her deeply and tried very hard at the marriage; some things aren't possible)

But at this point in time I bet she could write what you've written. She too wanted to run away. See the world. That was always there to some degree, but it became very compulsive.

The same for me. I was on the other side of that "view" although she couldn't see it.

I've had many friends that have experienced similar. Both men and women. I've seen few figure it out in time. I've seen many figure it out later. Figure out what happened. But not until they had destroyed their marriage and the lives of their spouses and sometimes kids.

Your view seems very focused on what he has done wrong during the marriage.

What has he done right? What are his good qualities?

Crazy, your perspective changed. You've admitted that. His reaction to those changes may not be what you hoped for. But please go back and tell me why (see the above questions throughout the post) your perspective changed. Specifics. I get that you feel you have been hurt or let down. You feel he is not the knight in shining armor you thought he was. Now the question is why is that?

I see that you are not done, Crazy. You wouldn't care if you were.

peace,

AJ

[Crazyville]

I know not EVERYONE here is unhappy. I said MOST everyone. Of course, you're past the stage of MOST people on this site.

Were there any specific things he asked for that you didn't give him?

No.

What were the specifics you asked for that he was unwilling to give you and why did he not want to? Just curious.

An example, gardening with me. He didn't want to because "gardening is a girl activity." Doing a jigsaw puzzle with me, because he "just doesn't 'get' it." There's more, of course, but hopefully this answers your Q.

Funny, I never thought of seeing the world as "running away." I've always thought of it as an experience that one is blessed to have the option of doing, which I've never had to this point. Heck, my 22yo niece recently spent a semester in Ireland and I'm incredibly jealous. I don't think she was running away.

Your view seems very focused on what he has done wrong during the marriage. What has he done right? What are his good qualities?

I listed a number of his good qualities in a prior post. He has a lot, they just aren't beneficial to ME or the M.

I think there's a big difference between wanting a knight in shining armor and wanting your S to be willing to spend more than two minutes doing a jigsaw puzzle with you. Especially since you were willing to spend 3 days camping with them. I believe a M should reciprocal. You don't have to agree. I thought it would be, it's not. I'm not sure what other answer you're looking for.

[Crazyville]

Just to clarify, there are a LOT of things that he still asks for currently that I tell him 'no' to NOW. There was not in the early years and he would support this statement.

[AJM]

I understand. Just for clarification, I am not trying to hurt. Just asking and really trying to understand. I am not coming into this with a conscious slant to things, so please don't think I'm judging. I looked at my posts, and it could be taken that way I've seen and talked to many people that question like you do, both on these boards and in person. One person is my neighbor and friend. She went through many of the same steps you are going through. She was about to leave her husband (started an affair) and ended up readjusting her perspective. So did her husband. They learned to work through it to give each other what each other wanted/needed. It's a learning experience to say the least. It was only their commitment that kept them together for a while.

I do realize there are things you want him to do with you. I realize you want and need more from him. I do realize that you are trying to figure things out. I get it.

What I'm getting at is that perspective is very important. Your perspective is coming across as looking at negatives and only taking into account what you want. And not getting enough of. I see that you have changed ("NOW" was the item that stood out.)

I'm not saying he should not do things with you. But I get that you feel it is not an equal partnership. What I was trying to see is if this is a reasonable perspective and why in order to hopefully help. No matter what happens, it is how you feel and you are perfectly welcome to feel however you want.

Your posts come across as you wanting to run away. I could easily have misinterpreted that. Posts are short and 2 dimensional by nature, right? Personally, I love to travel. I now have that financial freedom to travel and really enjoy it. Don't get me wrong, my ex liked to travel as well, so it wasn't something I couldn't do because she didn't want to go. Just time of life and expenses.

What I'm hearing in your posts is that "you tried" and are unhappy because of not getting what you want. I'm not seeing what you are doing to change that other than outline why at this point. That's a good start, but what's next? What are you going to do to be the change?

By the way, have you ever read the 5 love languages? Has your husband? If not, I highly recommend it as a way to better understand each other. It's not perfect, but it's a good read with lots of good practical information.

Peace,
AJ

[mamabird]

I was just going to say that it sounds like CV's love language is quality time. I wonder if your H would be open to hearing it put in the perspective of a love language.

[Crazyville]

AJM, I didn't think your posts were hurtful, just confusing. For me. It's probably perfectly clear to others. For example, you use the words "view" and "perspective" as if they have different meanings, but they're the same to me. Also, you use the word "perspective" like I would use the word "position," as in I "changed my position," rather than I "changed my perspective." To me, perspective is what you see from where you stand. You might see more detail the longer you stand there, but you will never see it from another angle. If you change your position, then you can see things from a different angle. I feel like I've always had the same perspective, the same idea of what M is supposed to be. But as I've experienced my H over the years, I've had the opportunity to see the intricate details of the man that I couldn't see initially. I haven't changed my position such that now I'm okay with him lying because now I can see M from a different angle. And I don't really care to change my position as such.

We're both quite familiar with the concept of love languages. My H and I did a study early on in our M, though it was represented as 10 LL's, written by Willard Harley. He knows mine, I know his. His top 3 are recreational companionship, family commitment and sex. My top 2 are honesty/openness and conversation. Knowing them hasn't helped. I made a point to meet his. He didn't make an effort to meet mine. The whole concept was wrapped up in the idea of a love bank and making deposits when you speak your partners love language and making withdrawals when you don't, being overdrawn, etc. Our M is stuffed with books and studies and retreats. It just doesn't have any impact. He would go to a M conference every weekend, and do a new book study together every week if I asked him. Heck, he's even asked me. But what I find is that it pumps me up so that I'm meeting his needs again, but he doesn't do anything different and therefore still isn't meeting mine. So I've lost interest in doing them with him. I feel I've been duped a few too many times.

I'm not getting what I want from H, but I've reconciled myself to the likelihood that I never will. If I see changes in him, I'm open to consider trying again, but I'm not interested anymore in investing myself in a M where I don't get anything in return. At this point, I'm just trying to co-live/co-parent for the sake of S12. I'm trying to keep the conflict to a minimum. Would I want something different? Of course! But that's like saying a want a million dollars or I want to be 24 again. Wanting is a mighty long stretch from having, and sometimes it simply isn't an option. So I'm settling for equitable.

Here's a current example from last night. He wanted to tell me about his counseling session last night. I listened to what he had to say and asked a few questions. The conversation didn't get started until late, so it didn't go on for long before H stopped abruptly and said, "I'm going to bed." This is not unusual for him and I find it quite offensive. So we both went upstairs and spent a few minutes tending to a few issues. Then I said to him that I recognize that it's late and he needs to go to work in the morning, and I'm trying really hard to not "hurricane" as I understand it, but that I find his abrupt ending to the convo offensive. I proposed instead that I would mentally set a short time limit on the convo and that when that time was met, I would politely/abruptly end the convo like he does, so then he would get his needs met of ending the convo in a short time and going to bed, and I wouldn't feel offended. He agreed.

And then I did it 10 minutes later. He talked a bit about the definition of hurricaning, what it looked like in a convo. I listened attentively until he was finished, then politely said, "Well, thank you for your time. Good night." And walked off. It accomplished exactly what it was supposed to and we both went to bed.

I don't believe he was happy with it, even though it's a win-win and he agreed to it.