Sorry CV, Somehow I kept missing your thread. I could so easily have written that list myself. I was looking up "Compulsive lying" on google the other night and i found some really interesting articles. There was even some about how to handle a compulsive liar. It's after 1 AM here so ill look for some links tomorrow. Also you might find googling Narcissism helpful.
As for the money, After a conversation with H tonight he told me now he is tracking all his money, he has realised just how much he spends. My advice there would be to write out all the bills that need to be paid and when, Then get your H to take over paying for all of the bills. I know, scary thought right? But what have you got to loose really? He is going to continue spending anyway.
Also have you read the DR book? If so it might be helpful to re read it. I know you shouldn't have to be the one to do these things but at worst, it may help the next few years be as pleasant as possible for you and your S.
CV I have really respected your opinions and insights around this board. You need to start doing things to boost your self esteem. I too had this (Still dealing with it but getting better.) I also had the second guessing my every move. You would be amazed what some nice new clothes and a little bit of make up do. Do this for yourself, no one else. It does not even have to be everyday. Feeling good about yourself really does make a huge difference. Accuracy really has some great advice.
M: 29, H: 31 D: 9 S: 8 T: 13 Y M: 9 Y ILYBIDKIILWY 12/09/2012 ~~~~ Worrying does not empty tomorrow of its troubles. ~~~ it Emptys today of its strengths
In the meantime, I received some insight from H last night. He told me he was getting a lot out of a book that he was reading and gave me a couple of examples. They weren't new, either the problems or the solutions.
It's easy to read a relationship book and see all the things that your spouse is doing wrong -- that's the first place people tend to go because they are looking for affirmation of how they are feeling. It is much more difficult to flip that over and see how the relationship book applies to what you are doing. Good relationship books will force you to see this anyway, I hope your H is reading a good one!
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
So after a few sentences of affirmation and encouragement, I asked him what was different that he was receptive to what the book was saying but had never been receptive to my saying it
You're picking a fight here -- why? i.e. "You believe the book, but you don't believe me." Why do you want to have that conversation and where do you hope it will lead? I would bet it would lead to argument and hurt feelings instead of an apology from your H.
This isn't that unusual -- for one, men tend to defer to authority. If you tell them not to eat a stick of butter they might ignore you, but if the doctor tells them, they'll come home and share with you this new wisdom the doctor has imparted. You're entitled to roll your eyes, but the good news is that he got the message, right?
Secondly, if both of you are unhappy in your marriage, you are in an adversarial position. Neither of you are getting what you want, so neither one of you want to give more to continue being disappointed -- you are at odds. Therefore, if you suggest to H that he needs to act differently, his reaction is going to be to be defensive rather than receptive. That's why the book speaks to him whereas your feedback may not. You are in a negatively reinforcing cycle. Your unmet needs and resentment fuel adversarial behavior, which provokes a response that makes you even more resentful. Both of you are caught in this, but it seems to drag H down less than it drags you down, and that's why you're in the tougher position.
I'm glad he's reading relationship books.
Why is he motivated to do this? Because he's not happy either and doesn't like how things are going.
It's clear that you telling him what to do day to day is unproductive, he's just going to argue with you or brush it off, or let it fall on the floor. You could try using the "Socratic Method" on him where instead of telling him what you think, you ask him questions to stimulate critical thinking and lead him down the path.
"What do you think you should do about that?"
"Why do you think I feel that way?"
"Why do you think that doing that will make things better?"
Either that or lay down the strict position I outlined above.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Thanks, Soul, for your encouraging words! It's very heartwarming to still be valued here, in spite of being a WAS on a site that is predominantly LBS's. I hope some are able to gain as much from my perspective as I'm able to gain from theirs.
I don't think my H is a compulsive liar. He doesn't do it with anything and everyone. In fact, I'm not sure he does it with anyone but me. He just very specifically lies to me about things for his own personal benefit. Of course, it could be that he lies to others and I'm just not aware of it.
And I have looked extensively into narcissism. It's like they wrote about my life: the codependency, rescuer attitude, even the constant self-doubt and endless searching for something I might have done wrong or could do differently. There's a very good chance he is narcissistic, but it's not like he can take a pill to fix it, and the prognosis for correction is slim. Even the diagnosis is not a definite yes or no, not like he can take a blood test to prove one way or other. Like Accuray said, it's very easy to see someone else in what we read, harder to see ourselves. So I don't quite know what to do with what I've read even if I'm quite certain he is.
BTW, regarding the self-care, funny you should suggest it, but I just got my hair cut and highlighted last week. I had also lost about 15lbs from the deck/stairway project this fall and put on some of my previously-couldn't-fit-into jeans and they fit. So I'm not wearing baggy jeans anymore. I also went out on Thursday night for a glass of wine, and sat for a while watching a wedding party celebrate with the newlyweds. After a while, a very nice looking man asked to sit next to me and we spent a long time chatting, which was quite enjoyable. He introduced me to some of his friends and I was the recipient of a number of compliments. I had no intention of doing anything inappropriate and went home at closing as planned, but it sure felt good to feel appreciated and valued, even at a completely superficial level.
I feel like I need a job outside of the home, but I'm torn because I feel like it's very important to finish my degree right now, plus I believe S12 and I both benefit from my being home for him, so I'm not even applying right now. It's just tough not having the exposure to the social aspect of an outside job.
Accuray, I agree we are adversarial at this point. However, his response/rejection of my input has gone on from day one. Basically, if I think something different than him, out comes the defense/offense, even on things like where to eat dinner.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
You're picking a fight here -- why? i.e. "You believe the book, but you don't believe me." Why do you want to have that conversation and where do you hope it will lead? I would bet it would lead to argument and hurt feelings instead of an apology from your H.
Accuray, I'm not understanding the difference between the question that I posed and the ones you're suggesting under your "Socratic Method." I can't see a difference between "Why do you think that doing that will make things better?" and "Why do you think you're able to hear it from her (the author) and not from me?" He wasn't angry when he responded. Neither was I when I asked. It has always been a significant issue for us, long before the animosity developed, so it seems important to have an answer. I'm not hurt or angry by his response. However, it does indicate to me that there's absolutely nothing I can do because I'm not responsible for my mother's choices. I would prefer to know the answer so I don't continue to butt my head against a brick wall.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
This isn't that unusual -- for one, men tend to defer to authority. If you tell them not to eat a stick of butter they might ignore you, but if the doctor tells them, they'll come home and share with you this new wisdom the doctor has imparted. You're entitled to roll your eyes, but the good news is that he got the message, right?
So I accept that men and women are different. I'll take you at your word on this topic because you're a guy. My question is: Why would I ever share my thoughts or opinions with my H on anything, if I know he's going to tend to defer to authority anyway? I'm not an authority in anything, so why bother? It seems like the best thing I could do is simply not clutter his mind or consume his time with my amateur perspective on things. It doesn't seem like there's a way to engage with him that doesn't degrade me, you know, in respect to someone of more authority.
And BTW, this is exactly why I went to the student handbook during our discussion about whether S12 was late for school, in recognition of his need for information from an authority. He could have gone to look it up himself but opted not to. And when I did, it didn't matter.
Hi CrazyV. I am fascinated by your postings. I also feel sorry that you have these feelings. I don't think they are uncommon or unnecessary. What I see in your posts is a search for growth and understanding. I see you asking the implicit question of how to change the dynamic by changing your husband.
I find that ironic. Especially since you seem so very smart and learned.
Ghandi had it right when he mentioned how to change the dynamic (others). So did the CIA when they wrote their books.
What I see in your posts is a one-way look at things. I know that's not the whole story, but it is very slanted. I get that but I think you may not be looking in all the places. Hence your frustration at the situation as you contemplate shutting down and leaving.
You mentioned many times that you wanted to know what people did, daily to participate in their marriage (I'm re-wording a bit). The implication is that your H shutdown and didn't actively participate.
So I wonder. What did you do daily?
What made your perspective change from before? (I did read your thread)
What is your H's perspective in his words?
You already know that looking for affirmation outside your marriage is not what you want to do. But you are toying with that, it seems. You are toying with the idea of taking the "easy" path. It's not, but it may seem like that right now. I think I see why, but curious what your thoughts are on the above questions.
I think it's a good idea to search for these kinds of answers. I really do. I hope you don't take offense at the questions or my asking them. I am certainly no authority I can see you have received a lot of really good advice and questions so far. I think that's very good as well.
Peace,
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Hi AJM, thanks for stopping in! I'm always happy to hear from an oldtimer (site-wise.) And I didn't take offense to any of your questions, though I admit I didn't quite understand what you were referring to in my looking for what people did to participate in their M. I'm not tying that to anything I asked, so I must be losing it in the rewording... Can you point me to a related question that I asked so I get the context your q's?
I can't say I know much about Ghandi's teachings, and nothing about the CIA, so perhaps I'm not as smart and learned as you've surmised. Admittedly, I have only one perspective on the situation. It would be unrealistic and unfair of me to speak for my H. I suspect for that very reason it does sound slanted.
Hey KD, I would have suspected you probably feel the same as before. You were so good to post on my early threads, but I could never quite glean what you were trying to tell me. I think you and I are just on different communication wavelengths or something. I know you're meaning well, I'm just not hearing you. Sorry! I really wish I did.
Funny, I didn't see AJ posting just before me. He speaks directly to the same.
Have you ever heard the saying, "think outside the box"?
There's another way to consider that phrase, which is "there is no box". Or to use a reference from the movie "Matrix", there is no spoon.
Gandhi, Buddhism, what have you, teach that a problem exists when you look at it. It gets worse, the stronger you focus on it.
Your struggle... from where I sit... is your focus is so narrow... on your H... that while it may not seem to be getting worse... it's certainly not going away.
I get that you are not understanding.
I get that the problem is not going away.
When you understand... you will understand.
Until then, you will not.
Look within, find peace in yourself first... then in your surroundings... then... in others...
I just did some googling on relationship dynamics. Whenever I thought or spoke "dynamics," I just meant the physical interaction between H and myself. For example, if I do something with him that he wants to do, I feel/believe that he should do something equivalent with me that I want to do. Simple.
But going online, there's a whole bunch of deep, new-age sort of analytical stuff about 6 different personalities interacting subliminally in inaccurate ways. Way too deep for anything I've ever touched on. Is that the context of dynamics being addressed here?
I'm just wondering if that's why I'm cross-communicating.
I can see you have received a lot of really good advice and questions so far. I think that's very good as well. 